ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #15

[Mickshawn]

I know what you mean, between that and "axillary" and "collaborating", I'm thinking there has to be a lot of typos ? Bad editing?

I heard "axillary" too!!!

 

[Arnie M]

<modsnip>God bless her sensationalist heart but folks like Nancy Grace keep pouring gasoline on the fire of errors ... she needs the ratings because they keep threatening to cancel her show. A child finder she is not. She is a sensationalist entertainer.

 

[iluvmua]

Yeah, I think Deorr more than likely knows what happened that day.

one thing I found very odd in his first media interview, how he says that the searchers are equiped to handle a lot worst situations than a missing child.

WHAT could be possibly be worse than a missing child???

jmo

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Yeah, I think Deorr more than likely knows what happened that day.

one thing I found very odd in his first media interview, how he says that the searchers are equiped to handle a lot worst situations than a missing child.

WHAT could be possibly be worse than a missing child???

jmo

Even though I'm no fan of DK's, I think what he meant by that was harder areas to search, such as avalanches and mountains with even more treacherous areas than where they were camping. But I completely agree with the thought behind what you're saying.

 

[iluvmua]

Is the campground where they went frequented by people?

Or is it one of those campgrounds where you would have to know it's there?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Is the campground where they went frequented by people?

Or is it one of those campgrounds where you would have to know it's there?

Not sure but there was an elderly couple also staying there. In the UK there are a couple of websites that list all the campsites in the country (or all the registered ones, anyway, that have facilities and charge a per night fee), there are reviews and photos of them. I found a couple of US sites but couldn't find Timber Creek, except on this one, however I've a feeling it could be the other Timber Creek campground further south (about 50 miles away)

http://www.forestcamping.com/dow/intermtn/chalcmp.htm#timber creek

 

[ILOKAL]

I don't think he is any such thing nor do I care if he is as long as he ends this case. He has said and done more for this case to move it forward than anyone has since it began. Vilt did nothing to find out what happened to DeOrr Jr and spent his time driving unprovable sightings to keep people from looking at the 4 at the campsite (also possible reasonable doubt later on), imo. He is the one I couldn't believe at all. Klein is doing something productive and from the looks of it, he is doing a damn good job. Let's wait and see how he finishes up before we call him derogatory names. I may have a few of my own if it all falls apart as a public scam or whatever you believe he is doing wrong.

I gave Vilt no credit either, fwiw. But I now read comments here stating unequivocally that DeOrr is deceased (which I've believed for a long time and didn't need Klein to tell me) because of either a covered-up accident or because he was murdered, yet nothing has changed because of Klein's investigation. He is playing around with those gullible enough to believe that through his efforts he has been able to make this very certain conclusion yet has pretty much said it's based on nothing more than lack of evidence of anything else. Time after time we read of people going missing in the wilderness never to be found after massive searches. Then, much later, a hunter or hiker finds their remains and it is ultimately determined that they simply DID get lost. This case is no different and shouldn't be looked at any differently because DeOrr is a small child. That in itself makes finding him even MORE difficult.

The same people who wanted to believe foul play before Klein entered the picture, believe it to this day. Why, because most have said through their experience on WS more often than not when a child goes missing it's due to foul play. Is that good reasoning in THIS case? Are the facts and circumstances that surround DeOrr's disappearance anywhere similar to the cases being used as examples? I don't know how Mr. Klein will play this out, but mark my word, little DeOrr didn't fall victim to murder or a covered-up accident. We will eventually find he wandered off and was lost in the wilderness. There might have been some intervening factors which caused difficulty in the search, but that is not unlike most other wilderness searches. People can and will take Mr. Klein's innuendo to mean that he truly has uncovered something that proves otherwise, but I continue to hope that as we sit back and carefully listen and dissect what he is saying, our common sense and intelligence will tell us that he's playing into the rumor mill that many in SM find themselves on, because he knows how that works. He chose SM for his reports and Q & A periods for a reason, and it's not because he believes it will lead to finding DeOrr.

I can't help but notice that many have even begun to omit IMO when they refer to DeOrr having died from the result of an accident or murder. I'll continue to offer my posts as my opinion only.

 

[desert-blue]

I gave Vilt no credit either, fwiw. But I now read comments here stating unequivocally that DeOrr is deceased (which I've believed for a long time and didn't need Klein to tell me) because of either a covered-up accident or because he was murdered, yet nothing has changed because of Klein's investigation. He is playing around with those gullible enough to believe that through his efforts he has been able to make this very certain conclusion yet has pretty much said it's based on nothing more than lack of evidence of anything else. Time after time we read of people going missing in the wilderness never to be found after massive searches. Then, much later, a hunter or hiker finds their remains and it is ultimately determined that they simply DID get lost. This case is no different and shouldn't be looked at any differently because DeOrr is a small child. That in itself makes finding him even MORE difficult.

The same people who wanted to believe foul play before Klein entered the picture, believe it to this day. Why, because most have said through their experience on WS more often than not when a child goes missing it's due to foul play. Is that good reasoning in THIS case? Are the facts and circumstances that surround DeOrr's disappearance anywhere similar to the cases being used as examples? I don't know how Mr. Klein will play this out, but mark my word, little DeOrr didn't fall victim to murder or a covered-up accident. We will eventually find he wandered off and was lost in the wilderness. There might have been some intervening factors which caused difficulty in the search, but that is not unlike most other wilderness searches. People can and will take Mr. Klein's innuendo to mean that he truly has uncovered something that proves otherwise, but I continue to hope that as we sit back and carefully listen and dissect what he is saying, our common sense and intelligence will tell us that he's playing into the rumor mill that many in SM find themselves on, because he knows how that works. He chose SM for his reports and Q & A periods for a reason, and it's not because he believes it will lead to finding DeOrr.

I can't help but notice that many have even begun to omit IMO when they refer to DeOrr having died from the result of an accident or murder. I'll continue to offer my posts as my opinion only.

BBM. We don't know that his belief is based only on a lack of evidence. I think there is evidence, and has been from at least Day 10, which is when Sheriff Bowerman said the investigation was going in a different direction. MOO.

On Day 3, the search was scaled back as well. http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/12/search-for-missing-2-year-old-continues-in-lemhi-county/30058523/

Press Release on Day 10 :https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice/posts/884467051627459

 

[Roselvr]

They searched with dogs, without dogs, with boats and side sonar equipment, with men and women trained to navigate in that terrain, and they brought in many agencies to provide their expertise including the FBI. They left no stone unturned, literally, up and down that little creek looking for DeOrr Jr. They did a good job searching and they just could not find him before the bad weather moved in on the mountain. They will look again come spring. It isn't completely over to continue the search for DeOrr. However, wouldn't it be so much better if the person who left him up on that mountain simply told LE where he was so they could recover his little bones?

How far out did they go to look for DeOrr? I honestly don't remember. But there is a problem if the timeline is off. How far could he have traveled in X amount of time? If they don't really know X...they were being bullwinkled from the beginning. Then they need to ask why? What reason would one have to mess with the timeline? LE didn't even know they were at the campsite the night before until later, imo. First hint the timeline was not going to work, imo. If the timeline is off...IR didn't give it to them...the other 3 did.

To me, it is odd no dogs picked up DeOrr Jr's scent and no track to find him. Klein also said there was no evidence DeOrr wandered off.

In Noah's case, they said the dogs did pick up his scent and they tracked him. I don't know what articles you read, but this wasn't the only one I read to mention it. It was also on the reporter's twitter feed.

Mehr said scents picked up by dogs and tracks from Noah in the woods led officials to believe Noah was in the woods and had not gone elsewhere. He said had the weather stayed warm, not gotten cold and not rained, there could have been a recovery.

http://www.jacksonsun.com/story/news/local/2016/01/21/body-noah-chamberlin-found/79134468/ (Madison County Sheriff John Mehr)

I am aware of the distance a 2 year old can travel as I have seen it on here a few times. I am sure they would agree they didn't expand out far enough quickly enough to save Noah. They will learn and apply it next time they are called to do the near impossible for another family. They did cover 1000 acres (1.56 square miles) before they found him. We can't second guess those poor searchers. They gave their all for Noah and are devastated tonight. They are heros for bringing him home to his family before this bad weather hit.

Dogs aren't always going to do their job, but then it does depend on the trainer and handler. I have seen the critics bashing the dogs, but they can and do find people every day. The SAR dogs who came to the OKC bombing site found bodies buried beneath the rubble. The dogs who worked countless hours in earthquake leveled places were successful to find people in the debris. I saw a story just the other night where a little victim's grandfather decided to train dogs because his little girl wasn't found soon enough either. He wanted to make a difference and he did. One of his trained dogs named after his granddaughter found a little girl who wandered off during a snowstorm within two hours. He tracked her miles and she was found in a parking lot...very cold, but still alive. http://www.alie.org/ I believe in using every tool available to LE to find the missing and this includes dogs. But like everything else, they are a tool not the magic wand some wish them to be.

Back in the beginning, we had someone with a SAR team here who said it could have been the dogs used were not trained well enough to find him. I've always felt that way, questioning their track record.

They really didn't want the public on that mountain searching because of the terrain. It is why they brought in professional teams to do it and people who were used to being in that sort of wilderness. They risk having to go find volunteers who get lost or hurt. Volunteers are not equipped with radios and there are a slew of other things like gear they are lacking to be on a mountain. They had many teams up there hunting for a child who was never lost.

Klein is saying DeOrr did not go missing because someone didn't watch him that day and he was never lost in the woods. He is saying DeOrr was killed either by accident or he was murdered. This case started out as a criminal investigation, imo. The Sheriff let that tid bit slip when he mentioned the aerial shots could be used later for evidence in a trial.

This happens to be one of the better older articles that has info I must have missed before.

Lemhi sheriff opens up about DeOrr Kunz case - Updated at 11:12 am, August 18th, 2015 By: Nate Eaton, EastIdahoNews.com

Meanwhile, Bowerman said DeOrr’s parents and Walton were questioned multiple times by Lemhi detectives.

“Those three have been very cooperative,” Bowerman said. “They’ve given us everything we ask for, and I feel real good about the parents and the grandfather.”

Reinwand has also been questioned, and Bowerman revealed Kunz Sr. and Mitchell had never met him before this camping trip.

“I’m not getting any feeling that he’s not being truthful,” Bowerman said. “He’s come up to the area on a second occasion with me, and I think he’s been very truthful and I appreciate his help.”

Bowerman said everyone at the campsite has had their vehicles and homes searched several times, and Bonneville County deputies and the FBI are now working with Lemhi County detectives.

“All four have voluntarily taken polygraphs and right now they’ve been turned over to the FBI,” Bowerman said. “We’ve given the FBI lots of items to analyze behaviorally and we’ve given them some physical evidence.”

Bowerman wouldn’t go into details about what specifically has been turned over to the FBI but he said he wants “all bases covered” to help solve the case.

 

[ILOKAL]

BBM. We don't know that his belief is based only on a lack of evidence. I think there is evidence, and has been from at least Day 10, which is when Sheriff Bowerman said the investigation was going in a different direction. MOO.

On Day 3, the search was scaled back as well. http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/12/search-for-missing-2-year-old-continues-in-lemhi-county/30058523/

Press Release on Day 10 :https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice/posts/884467051627459

The only things Klein has stated unequivocally is about there being a lack of evidence for, IHO, other scenarios to have happened.

When LE couldn't find DeOrr and SB thought his dog(s) SHOULD have found DeOrr the first day, is when he announced a new direction. Again, due to lack of evidence.

 

[desert-blue]

The only things Klein has stated unequivocally is about there being a lack of evidence for, IHO, other scenarios to have happened.

When LE couldn't find DeOrr and SB thought his dog(s) SHOULD have found DeOrr the first day, is when he announced a new direction. Again, due to lack of evidence.

Klein is saying there is no evidence that DeOrr was eaten by an animal. Klein is saying there is no evidence DeOrr was abducted. However, there is evidence that DeOrr met his death due to the actions of someone on the camping trip (and that evidence is not just the lack of evidence of something else). I would not expect for there to be evidence of multiple scenarios - only one.

We don't know that SB started in a different direction based solely on a lack of evidence. He may have said that publicly but there is no way a sheriff would call off a search for a 2 year old on day 3 just because no evidence was found? There had to be other reasons which we are not privy to.

Obviously, all MOO.

 

[ILOKAL]

Klein is saying there is no evidence that DeOrr was eaten by an animal. Klein is saying there is no evidence DeOrr was abducted. However, there is evidence that DeOrr met his death due to the actions of someone on the camping trip (and that evidence is not just the lack of evidence of something else). I would not expect for there to be evidence of multiple scenarios - only one.

We don't know that SB started in a different direction based solely on a lack of evidence. He may have said that publicly but there is no way a sheriff would call off a search for a 2 year old on day 3 just because he hadn't been found. There had to be other reasons which we are not privy to.

Obviously, all MOO.

First Klein said he wouldn't comment if there was physical evidence but he would state there is forensic evidence. Then, during the indepth interview, he said there's physical evidence. The ever-changing answer man. We have known for a long time that there's physical evidence. Everything there and things not there are physical evidence. Physical evidence of what? A scenario conjured up by Klein. Forensic evidence is merely evidence that would be offered to the court. ALL kinds of evidence. What Klein has said has no beneficial meaning whatsoever. But it's working, so he'll keep on talking. In the end we'll see there was no accident and there was no murder, and Klein will move on to his next "case" while the family is left with the pain of his doing. Oh, IMO.

 

[desert-blue]

First Klein said he wouldn't comment if there was physical evidence but he would state there is forensic evidence. Then, during the indepth interview, he said there's physical evidence. The ever-changing answer man. We have known for a long time that there's physical evidence. Everything there and things not there are physical evidence. Physical evidence of what? A scenario conjured up by Klein. Forensic evidence is merely evidence that would be offered to the court. ALL kinds of evidence. What Klein has said has no beneficial meaning whatsoever. But it's working, so he'll keep on talking. In the end we'll see there was no accident and there was no murder, and Klein will move on to his next "case" while the family is left with the pain of his doing. Oh, IMO.

I think any outcome which doesn't involve murder or accidental death would be much preferred by everyone, so in that sense, I hope you're right. I guess only time will tell.

 

[neesaki]

Those two mistakes were the fault of EIN, not Klein. I read the whole thing and when I saw those two typos I went and watched the video to see who erred. Klein used the word "auxiliary" on a Facebook post. Hard to hear which word he says in the interview. He definitely says "corroborating" where the article says he said "collaborating."

I haven't watched the actual video, makes sense. Thanks, ZooSleuth.

 

[neesaki]

.

We are all here to learn , and that includes me. I prefer facts versus emotions . Emotions have their time and place but emotions never find missing children.

One thing I have learned is that hundreds of searcher working for hundreds of days may not find anything but that does not mean the child is (was) not there.

Some time later they find the remains within the search area , and in one case the child was in tall grass beside the parking area where searchers had been gathering every day. In one case a tired searcher riding in a van thought he spotted something in a ditch and made the driver turn back. It was the missing child and searchers had been up and down that road numerous times.

Many many similar examples like that. My point is we should not rule out the possibility DeOrr got lost in the wilderness . Just because they did not find him is beside the point.

Very seldom are those rural missing children the result of anything nefarious , or abductions , or conspiracy theory.

And that is fact.

.

Very true your point on so many missing children being found later In areas previously searched, often also found later outside the search areas. If Paulides has anything right it is that, IMO.
I think in Deorrs case that LE maybe has something else though, evidence of some kind not revealed to us, that has led them to their conclusion that he didn't just wander off. And they extended their search to three miles, IIRC.

 

[neesaki]

I heard "axillary" too!!!

I was just going off the transcript, so I guess I should listen to it to see what I hear.

 

[neesaki]

<modsnip>I have to admit I literally laughed out loud when I read your <modsnip> comment. I absolutely agree with you on the FB people, way too many raging lunatics over there for my taste.

 

[ILOKAL]

Very true your point on so many missing children being found later In areas previously searched, often also found later outside the search areas. If Paulides has anything right it is that, IMO.
I think in Deorrs case that LE maybe has something else though, evidence of some kind not revealed to us, that has led them to their conclusion that he didn't just wander off. And they extended their search to three miles, IIRC.

For the record, IIRC, I don't think LE has come to that conclusion or any other conclusion in DeOrr's case, but that's for a different thread. Little Jerold (age 5) in Arizona was found 8 miles from where he disappeared and his autopsy showed he succumbed to the elements the day after he went missing.

 

[desert-blue]

Is it possible that the parents left DeOrr with GGPA and Isaac when they went into town and then when they came back they couldn't find DeOrr? Maybe they didn't want to admit to leaving their child with two people who possibly aren't the best caretakers? I'm not sure how it could go from that to a massive cover-up, is the only thing. I would think the parents' concern over finding their son (and if someone harmed him, seeing that that person was held accountable) would override any fear of telling the truth that they left their child with GGPA and Isaac. I guess this scenario probably doesn't make sense.

ETA: Also, no scent of DeOrr was found, so I think I'll have to abandon this theory...

 

[ILOKAL]

Is it possible that the parents left DeOrr with GGPA and Isaac when they went into town and then when they came back they couldn't find DeOrr? Maybe they didn't want to admit to leaving their child with two people who possibly aren't the best caretakers? I'm not sure how it could go from that to a massive cover-up, is the only thing. I would think the parents' concern over finding their son (and if someone harmed him, seeing that that person was held accountable) would override any fear of telling the truth that they left their child with GGPA and Isaac. I guess this scenario probably doesn't make sense.

ETA: Also, no scent of DeOrr was found, so I think I'll have to abandon this theory...

Did you "expect" his scent to be found? What conclusion do you draw because DeOrr's scent wasn't found?