ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #15

[ILOKAL]

I know what you mean, between that and "axillary" and "collaborating", I'm thinking there has to be a lot of typos ? Bad editing?

Respectfully, typos are when you hit the wrong key or an autocorrect error. Using the wrong word or misspelling words are something else altogether, and it's not a good look!

 

[ILOKAL]

They only have a receipt, IIRC. No one has said what was on it and not sure if they said the clerk did remember them both or not...just the clerk didn't remember seeing the little boy.

I thought SB said the clerk couldn't recall if she saw little DeOrr or not.

 

[ILOKAL]

7 days. They found him in 7 days. They also found evidence he was in the woods. The dogs did track him. Actually, he was a half mile from where he went missing. He was 1.5 miles from his house. (I think I have that straight.) There is nothing in common between this case and Noah's other than their age.

I disagree. I think the cases couldn't be more alike. What was different was the extent of the search and determination to find Noah. IMO

 

[kammiemc]

Its right on the border isn't it?
And why do I get a weird feeling that that whole little rantanswer is directed at someone? Or was that just me? Its kinda weird imo

Hmmmm...good question. How would make this a federal case? Wire fraud would do that if anyone profited from a cover up by accepting donations facilitated online I think.


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[kammiemc]

I do agree with you. And I've seen guilty people before not lawyer up to not look guilty. It really could go either way.

But I feel like IR was lawyered up long before the parents ever felt or let on at all that IR could be involved. Seemed like he did that after talking with LE. And its above all that. He hasn't shared one missing persons flyer of DeOrr. Never helped search. And I could see him refusing to talk with Klein if it was anything els other then a missing innocent two year old. Idk who you are when it comes to a missing child you become selfless and do what you can to help especially if you are one of the last people to see him. But IR hasn't even pretended to even want to help. Nothing. Thats weird to me. There are ways to help that doesn't mean talking with the parents, LE, or a PI but he hasn't even done that.

That's a tough one.

Even if he was not directly responsible for anything, if he knew there was a cover up because he was asked to go along with a story, he wouldn't put on a show and hand out fliers or go on searches. I just think that particular behavior isn't telling of one thing or another. Also, he seems to be a guy who, well, beats to his own drum. It would not be surprising if he responded to situations in a different way than others might.


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[SeriouslySearching]

I thought SB said the clerk couldn't recall if she saw little DeOrr or not.

Isn't that what I said? "...just the clerk didn't remember seeing the little boy."

There is no difference in the extent of the searches and determination to find a child. The terrain may be rougher to navigate on this case, but they had people combing the mountain looking for DeOrr who were well trained and qualified to be there. They didn't have a shortage of manpower nor did they give up too soon. DeOrr Jr. wasn't where they searched and they finally decided it had gone long enough. It happens in every case when nothing is found. They have to end the professional searches.

It is my opinion, LE has known all along there was foul play of some form (even if it is covering up an accidental death) in this case and in Noah's case, they knew immediately there was not. There was never an ounce of concern the grandmother had not told the truth about Noah and the circumstances behind his disappearance. DeOrr Jr's disappearance had many red flags from the beginning, imo.

Again, there is nothing to compare. Noah did actually run off from his grandmother and was found in a short amount of time within a reasonable area for him to have wandered off. Where they found him obviously proved her story was true. DeOrr Jr. did not run away and Klein Investigators stated it clearly on their FB page (Jan. 16th - 8:22am post).

 

[Arnie M]

7 days. They found him in 7 days. They also found evidence he was in the woods. The dogs did track him. Actually, he was a half mile from where he went missing. He was 1.5 miles from his house. (I think I have that straight.) There is nothing in common between this case and Noah's other than their age.

Best wishes .... but the articles I read said they did an intensive grid search within a one mile radius for 6 days and could not find the 2 year old boy. They speculated he must have fallen into a mud hole and got covered up so that searchers could not see him and dogs could not smell him.

It was only when they expanded it to a one and a half mile grid they found him lying down in a clearing in the woods.

If I was trying to make a point it was

--- how far a 2 year old can travel , searchers were initially reluctant to go beyond one mile radius
--- Dogs were used and they did pick up some scent of the boy here and there , but they failed to track him to where he ended up. I mention that because way too many people think tracking dogs are infallible . Truth is they fail more than succeed.
--- Dogs did not locate DeOrr , but that does not mean DeOrr did not wander off .... way too much emphasis placed on dogs not scenting DeOrr .... from that has grown all the bizarre theories.

 

[ZooSleuth]

I know what you mean, between that and "axillary" and "collaborating", I'm thinking there has to be a lot of typos ? Bad editing?

Those two mistakes were the fault of EIN, not Klein. I read the whole thing and when I saw those two typos I went and watched the video to see who erred. Klein used the word "auxiliary" on a Facebook post. Hard to hear which word he says in the interview. He definitely says "corroborating" where the article says he said "collaborating."

 

[Arnie M]

Isn't that what I said? "...just the clerk didn't remember seeing the little boy."

There is no difference in the extent of the searches and determination to find a child. The terrain may be rougher to navigate on this case, but they had people combing the mountain looking for DeOrr who were well trained and qualified to be there. They didn't have a shortage of manpower nor did they give up too soon. DeOrr Jr. wasn't where they searched and they finally decided it had gone long enough. It happens in every case when nothing is found. They have to end the professional searches.

It is my opinion, LE has known all along there was foul play of some form (even if it is covering up an accidental death) in this case and in Noah's case, they knew immediately there was not. There was never an ounce of concern the grandmother had not told the truth about Noah and the circumstances behind his disappearance. DeOrr Jr's disappearance had many red flags from the beginning, imo.

Again, there is nothing to compare. Noah did actually run off from his grandmother and was found in a short amount of time within a reasonable area for him to have wandered off. Where they found him obviously proved her story was true. DeOrr Jr. did not run away and Klein Investigators stated it clearly on their FB page (Jan. 16th - 8:22am post).

Not trying to pick on you , I just quoted you for convenience because many people feel the same as you.

It is my opinion that the most credible witness has been DeOrr's father , during all the interviews he blurts out his answers from the heart , he is never evasive , he does not structure his replies with careful forethought , he does not act like he has anything to hide . Everything he says has the aroma of truth to it.

I would give him more credibility than most of the other clueless actors who have jumped on this stage . Not to mention all the <modsnip>gasoline that keeps getting poured on the fire.

 

[TeaTime]

So there are witnesses (plural) that can place DeOrr on the mountain on Friday, corroborating the family's story. So, who saw him Friday? I am going back to the filthy, bawling baby sighting being Friday evening, not Saturday. Only the 4 POIs can place him there on Saturday which tells us that no one at the store remembers the child being in the store with his parents on the Saturday trip. Perhaps the Saturday trip was to establish a time when the baby was allegedly still alive but DeOrr was never in the store.

IR 'disappeared' for an hour after DeOrr went missing. Perhaps he was searching. However, the story about mom, dad and IR all being in the same spot when DeOrr went missing is bogus. Didn't JM state that while searching she came across IR and asked him if he had seen DeOrr and he did not answer her? (Maybe her mother said this) Didn't SB tell us that the parents were 150 feet from the campsite and IR was 150 feet from the campsite in the other direction when the child was noticed to be gone?

All this makes no sense. Sorry. I was confused.

So there are witness (other than the POIs) that can put DeOrr on the mountain on Friday. It must be the other campers.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Best wishes .... but the articles I read said they did an intensive grid search within a one mile radius for 6 days and could not find the 2 year old boy. They speculated he must have fallen into a mud hole and got covered up so that searchers could not see him and dogs could not smell him.

It was only when they expanded it to a one and a half mile grid they found him lying down in a clearing in the woods.

If I was trying to make a point it was

--- how far a 2 year old can travel , searchers were initially reluctant to go beyond one mile radius
--- Dogs were used and they did pick up some scent of the boy here and there , but they failed to track him to where he ended up. I mention that because way too many people think tracking dogs are infallible . Truth is they fail more than succeed.
--- Dogs did not locate DeOrr , but that does not mean DeOrr did not wander off .... way too much emphasis placed on dogs not scenting DeOrr .... from that has grown all the bizarre theories.

They searched with dogs, without dogs, with boats and side sonar equipment, with men and women trained to navigate in that terrain, and they brought in many agencies to provide their expertise including the FBI. They left no stone unturned, literally, up and down that little creek looking for DeOrr Jr. They did a good job searching and they just could not find him before the bad weather moved in on the mountain. They will look again come spring. It isn't completely over to continue the search for DeOrr. However, wouldn't it be so much better if the person who left him up on that mountain simply told LE where he was so they could recover his little bones?

How far out did they go to look for DeOrr? I honestly don't remember. But there is a problem if the timeline is off. How far could he have traveled in X amount of time? If they don't really know X...they were being bullwinkled from the beginning. Then they need to ask why? What reason would one have to mess with the timeline? LE didn't even know they were at the campsite the night before until later, imo. First hint the timeline was not going to work, imo. If the timeline is off...IR didn't give it to them...the other 3 did.

To me, it is odd no dogs picked up DeOrr Jr's scent and no track to find him. Klein also said there was no evidence DeOrr wandered off.

In Noah's case, they said the dogs did pick up his scent and they tracked him. I don't know what articles you read, but this wasn't the only one I read to mention it. It was also on the reporter's twitter feed.

Mehr said scents picked up by dogs and tracks from Noah in the woods led officials to believe Noah was in the woods and had not gone elsewhere. He said had the weather stayed warm, not gotten cold and not rained, there could have been a recovery.

http://www.jacksonsun.com/story/news/local/2016/01/21/body-noah-chamberlin-found/79134468/ (Madison County Sheriff John Mehr)

I am aware of the distance a 2 year old can travel as I have seen it on here a few times. I am sure they would agree they didn't expand out far enough quickly enough to save Noah. They will learn and apply it next time they are called to do the near impossible for another family. They did cover 1000 acres (1.56 square miles) before they found him. We can't second guess those poor searchers. They gave their all for Noah and are devastated tonight. They are heros for bringing him home to his family before this bad weather hit.

Dogs aren't always going to do their job, but then it does depend on the trainer and handler. I have seen the critics bashing the dogs, but they can and do find people every day. The SAR dogs who came to the OKC bombing site found bodies buried beneath the rubble. The dogs who worked countless hours in earthquake leveled places were successful to find people in the debris. I saw a story just the other night where a little victim's grandfather decided to train dogs because his little girl wasn't found soon enough either. He wanted to make a difference and he did. One of his trained dogs named after his granddaughter found a little girl who wandered off during a snowstorm within two hours. He tracked her miles and she was found in a parking lot...very cold, but still alive. http://www.alie.org/ I believe in using every tool available to LE to find the missing and this includes dogs. But like everything else, they are a tool not the magic wand some wish them to be.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I think it is very appropriate you mentioned that

(2 year old) Noah had wandered 1.5 miles away , hundreds of searchers and dogs could not find him . Its as simple as that .

Once they expanded the search grid they came across his body in a clearing.

The two cases are similar. No offence to the ID police but I wish they could teleport Noah's TN team up to that mountain.

EDIT I mean they look similar on the face of it - 2 year old boy, with family, unwatched for a short time, apparently lost in the "wilderness". I think maybe I'm being unfair on the ID search team, but whatever efforts they went to in those initial days it sure as heck wasn't rolled out to the public. I don't think there were coaches of searchers, I don't think the public were much involved, there was little attempt to rally the troops so to speak. That is my perception and in that respect Team Noah should be proud of themselves.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I wouldn't think so.....only lead to results in their favor....I think the main goal is to find the baby. I'd think the family wants to find him AND know the truth...no?

Well, my theory is that little D died, and DK and JM know and tried to cover it up. I think GGP doesn't have any idea what happened, but I think IR has a pretty good idea and can see fingers are going to be pointed at him.

I think their extended families, Trina, DK Sr, their sisters, etc., really want to believe DK and JM are innocent. So I think *their* main goal is to find the truth, while DK and JM's main goal is to hide the truth.

At first, I thought Klein was going to help hide that truth because he was getting paid, and paid a lot, but it seems that he really is trying to find out what happened to little D no matter what that answer is.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Not trying to pick on you , I just quoted you for convenience because many people feel the same as you.

It is my opinion that the most credible witness has been DeOrr's father , during all the interviews he blurts out his answers from the heart , he is never evasive , he does not structure his replies with careful forethought , he does not act like he has anything to hide . Everything he says has the aroma of truth to it.

I would give him more credibility than most of the other clueless actors who have jumped on this stage . Not to mention all the <modsnip>gasoline that keeps getting poured on the fire.

Ah! Pick on me, I don't mind. LOL

See...I have a totally different take on him than you do. I have found him to be the least credible. He talks too much about everything except finding DeOrr Jr. He rambles about nonsense and throws in too many details. He went on and on about how impressed he was with the searchers and I found his excitement quite unsettling (would have been more appropriate if they had actually found little DeOrr). Just odd to go on about them instead of being solemn about his son being missing on that mountain. I didn't see fear in his eyes or the worry etched across his face. I didn't hear that truth you are talking about. First impressions of him were not good for me and things went downhill from there. Now it doesn't mean he is guilty of anything. It only means I didn't care for his demeanor and the way he presented his son's case.

We see things so differently, but that is what makes WS a good place to be. One can learn from the other after a case is solved. I hope we are truly getting close to the end of this one.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I don't think he is any such thing nor do I care if he is as long as he ends this case. He has said and done more for this case to move it forward than anyone has since it began. Vilt did nothing to find out what happened to DeOrr Jr and spent his time driving unprovable sightings to keep people from looking at the 4 at the campsite (also possible reasonable doubt later on), imo. He is the one I couldn't believe at all. Klein is doing something productive and from the looks of it, he is doing a damn good job. Let's wait and see how he finishes up before we call him derogatory names. I may have a few of my own if it all falls apart as a public scam or whatever you believe he is doing wrong.

Vilt took the case because he believed DK and JM were innocent and wanted to prove it. Eventually he just faded away...which was so quiet yet says soooo much.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Not trying to pick on you , I just quoted you for convenience because many people feel the same as you.

It is my opinion that the most credible witness has been DeOrr's father , during all the interviews he blurts out his answers from the heart , he is never evasive , he does not structure his replies with careful forethought , he does not act like he has anything to hide . Everything he says has the aroma of truth to it.

I would give him more credibility than most of the other clueless actors who have jumped on this stage . Not to mention all the <modsnip>gasoline that keeps getting poured on the fire.

He is the *least* credible witness in my opinion lol. I think he is the *most* likely to know what really happened that day.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

The two cases are similar. No offence to the ID police but I wish they could teleport Noah's TN team up to that mountain.

EDIT I mean they look similar on the face of it - 2 year old boy, with family, unwatched for a short time, apparently lost in the "wilderness". I think maybe I'm being unfair on the ID search team, but whatever efforts they went to in those initial days it sure as heck wasn't rolled out to the public. I don't think there were coaches of searchers, I don't think the public were much involved, there was little attempt to rally the troops so to speak. That is my perception and in that respect Team Noah should be proud of themselves.

They really didn't want the public on that mountain searching because of the terrain. It is why they brought in professional teams to do it and people who were used to being in that sort of wilderness. They risk having to go find volunteers who get lost or hurt. Volunteers are not equipped with radios and there are a slew of other things like gear they are lacking to be on a mountain. They had many teams up there hunting for a child who was never lost.

Klein is saying DeOrr did not go missing because someone didn't watch him that day and he was never lost in the woods. He is saying DeOrr was killed either by accident or he was murdered. This case started out as a criminal investigation, imo. The Sheriff let that tid bit slip when he mentioned the aerial shots could be used later for evidence in a trial.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Vilt took the case because he believed DK and JM were innocent and wanted to prove it. Eventually he just faded away...which was so quiet yet says soooo much.

Vilt did what he could to help draw the attention elsewhere and give them a possible out later. He didn't necessarily believe they were innocent. I think he left because there wasn't much left for him to do since he was pretty ineffective. He did fade away quietly.

 

[Trident]

Best wishes .... but the articles I read said they did an intensive grid search within a one mile radius for 6 days and could not find the 2 year old boy. They speculated he must have fallen into a mud hole and got covered up so that searchers could not see him and dogs could not smell him.

It was only when they expanded it to a one and a half mile grid they found him lying down in a clearing in the woods.

If I was trying to make a point it was

--- how far a 2 year old can travel , searchers were initially reluctant to go beyond one mile radius
--- Dogs were used and they did pick up some scent of the boy here and there , but they failed to track him to where he ended up. I mention that because way too many people think tracking dogs are infallible . Truth is they fail more than succeed.
--- Dogs did not locate DeOrr , but that does not mean DeOrr did not wander off .... way too much emphasis placed on dogs not scenting DeOrr .... from that has grown all the bizarre theories.

Thanks was just not enough - even though you did use some reasoning/pointers from someone you seem to dislike.

Good post, spot on.

 

[Arnie M]

.

We are all here to learn , and that includes me. I prefer facts versus emotions . Emotions have their time and place but emotions never find missing children.

One thing I have learned is that hundreds of searcher working for hundreds of days may not find anything but that does not mean the child is (was) not there.

Some time later they find the remains within the search area , and in one case the child was in tall grass beside the parking area where searchers had been gathering every day. In one case a tired searcher riding in a van thought he spotted something in a ditch and made the driver turn back. It was the missing child and searchers had been up and down that road numerous times.

Many many similar examples like that. My point is we should not rule out the possibility DeOrr got lost in the wilderness . Just because they did not find him is beside the point.

Very seldom are those rural missing children the result of anything nefarious , or abductions , or conspiracy theory.

And that is fact.

.