ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[kammiemc]

I think we can safely assume that GP Kunz saw baby DeOrr on Thursday at some point since they lived together. Therefore, it is very, very unlikely that the baby was dead and the trip was part of a larger scheme to hide his body and have 2 challenged witnesses for back up.

I was being sarcastic when I stated that 'the baby could have been dead a week before the trip for all we know', it was not meant to start speculation. Sorry.

I agree that you are likely correct, but to be honest, I can't safely assume it! They traveled in different vehicles. It was evening. Who knows if GGP saw him. Or if he can recall for sure. My poor papa has failing mental abilities--still drives (don't get me started) and wouldn't be able to remember or state with any certainty who he saw when. If I suggested to him something happened on a certain date, he would agree with me.


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[Rayemonde]

Well, what evidence do we have to go on to form an opinion about whether DeOrr was ever at the campsite or not?

For:

Bowerman says he thinks he was there
Klein says he thinks he was there (or at least "on the mountain")
IR said he was there, and gave a definite "Yes" in his interview with Nate
Someone at the store and at the gas station said they may have seen a child with DeOrr's parents
Grandma said she threw a dirty diaper away when she arrived to help search


Against:

In all this time, not one family member or friend has said publically exactly when they last saw DeOrr before the trip, despite people asking
Bowerman is not 100% certain DeOrr was there, and there are no 100% definite sightings of DeOrr on the trip
SB and Klein will not say when Deorr was last seen before the trip, which seems a little evasive (moo)
The dogs didn't find anything definite


What else?

 

[mkids11]

Coming out of lurkdom to ask a few questions/speculation:

1. Does DK have 2 vehicles? (If so: Since dogs didn’t pickup any scent, did the trip to store involve switching vehicles?)
2. If true, TC stated that she picked up 1 diaper. This would indicate Deorr was there. IMO, there was no morning diaper change. I believe that the diaper came from before he went to bed for the night.
3. Speculation: Is it ‘truthful’ that DK & JM slept in back of truck? Is it possible that they did in fact have a tent after all? If so, would dogs hit on the ground where a tent was?

Just all my thoughts and speculation……….Heading back to lurking now 

 

[ILOKAL]

Thanks for posting this Bessie. It is a good description of the types of SAR dogs. A side note, the term "scent dogs" is not used to describe search and rescue K9's (at least by handlers) and I think its caused a LOT of confusion. All search dogs find scent, they all have noses. Its what they are trained to find and how they do it that determines what you call them. For example AIR scent dogs work primarily from scent in the air. TRAILING dogs find scent primarily on the ground. CADAVER dogs search for the scent of human remains. I know you know this Bessie but there has been a lot of confusion.

Hope this post and your link helps folks understand.

Onebest, hoping you'll clarify which dogs search for human scent in general and which ones search for a specific human scent and some of the difficulties each might have encountered while searching for DeOrr? Thanks so much.

 

[neesaki]

Well, what evidence do we have to go on to form an opinion about whether DeOrr was ever at the campsite or not?

For:

Bowerman says he thinks he was there
Klein says he thinks he was there (or at least "on the mountain")
IR said he was there, and gave a definite "Yes" in his interview with Nate
Someone at the store and at the gas station said they may have seen a child with DeOrr's parents
Grandma said she threw a dirty diaper away when she arrived to help search


Against:

In all this time, not one family member or friend has said publically exactly when they last saw DeOrr before the trip, despite people asking
Bowerman is not 100% certain DeOrr was there, and there are no 100% definite sightings of DeOrr on the trip
SB and Klein will not say when Deorr was last seen before the trip, which seems a little evasive (moo)
The dogs didn't find anything definite


What else?

Sheriff B also said he knew nothing about a diaper.

 

[Rayemonde]

Sheriff B also said he knew nothing about a diaper.

I'm not so.sure about that... Bbm:

G: Okay, and from one of our members comes this. Was the dirty diaper ever found and proven to be from Deorr and was their blood in the diaper?

20:42
SB: You know I’m not aware of any diaper found outside of the camp, and I don’t recall any blood ever being observed on a diaper.

Unless - Did she specifically say she threw the diaper away *outside* of the camp? SB didn't say they didn't find any inside the camp..

 

[neesaki]

I'm not so.sure about that... Bbm:



Unless - Did she specifically say she threw the diaper away *outside* of the camp? SB didn't say they didn't find any inside the camp..

Ok, I didn't remember him putting it that way.

Rayemonde, can you tell me where that transcribed interview is? TIA

ETA: Nevermind, I found it.

 

[desert-blue]

We don't know where VDK and JM were living when baby Deorr went missing. There are rumors that they had moved out of the paternal grandparents' house late spring/early summer last year. I really wish somebody would clear up when anybody saw him prior to the camping trip.

I am certain that I read that they had moved out of his house as well. I do not think they were living there at the time of the camping trip but I don't have a link. It could have been rumor, I suppose.

 

[desert-blue]

JMO but I don't think these hugely oversized boots ever even existed.

Unfortunately, I'm with you on that. I think she described the boots he wore when he was younger (that she listed on a buy & sell forum) and said they were over-sized to add credence to the abduction theory. MOO.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I wonder who she asked? I'm under the impression that SB wasn't at the scene until days later. I think Morelli and Penner may have been there, though? (this is assuming that she actually did throw a diaper away and ask for permission.... I'm not so sure I trust her comments to be 100% truthful and neither Klein nor Bowerman seem to know anything about it...)

BBM

That's weird. I thought SB had said his own dog was checking on that first afternoon? A dog and his handler are usually inseparable aren't they?

 

[The Apparition]

Welcome Apparition, good first post and thank you for sharing your perspective. To say I am sorry your son was kidnapped isnt really enough to express how my heart goes out to you. I hope you have found the answers and support you need. Glad you are here.

Thank you all for the warm welcome and the best wishes. It wouldn't be fair to tease the story about my own son being kidnapped so I will share for those interested. My son was parentally kidnapped/abducted by his non-custodial mother. We used to split physical custody 3 days for me and 4 days for my ex. I had full legal custody due to a bitter court battle where a mountain of lies, false DFYS reports, and custodial interference gave me legal custody of my young son.

My ex is from another country and one of my fears was she would leave and take our son "as she often threatened". Despite being on the "No Fly" list and me possessing his passport my fear came true. My wife was able to add our 2.5 year old son onto her passport like a footnote and jump on a plane and take him 12 hours away.

It took about 45 days for our state dept to find out my wife and son were in another country, during that window the police wanted to make sure I didn't do a Scott Peterson to them, hence the lie detector among other things. Once I knew for sure where my son was, I filed a Hague Application. It took 3 years and 10 months, 4 court trips, and 5 international flights, but I got my son back. He was 6 when I got him home. He had being living a horrible life and was not in the best of shape when I finally was able to bring him home. I will tell you all that he is 11 now, medically in great shape, physically well, and most importantly very happy. I remarried in the ensuing years and my current wife is an angel and supported me during my 4 year quest to get my son back. We have a daughter together and all 4 of us are very happy together. I am so sorry to my son for the trauma he went through in his life but would not have been able to live with myself if I left him living in an abusive home in another country without trying to save him.

 

[neesaki]

Curious about this answer from Klein in his FB interview:

AA: What vehicles were at the campsite when law enforcement arrived on July 10th. Were any of the vehicles diesel? Was diesel fuel purchased?

Klein: This goes to evidence - and we will not comment. We will say yes on the diesel fuel purchase. :thinking:

 

[MBK]

Unfortunately, I'm with you on that. I think she described the boots he wore when he was younger (that she listed on a buy & sell forum) and said they were over-sized to add credence to the abduction theory. MOO.

I missed any earlier discussion of those boots posted on a buy and sell forum. When did she do that? Thanks!

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

19:30
TG: Okay, and from one of our members comes this. Was the dirty diaper ever found and proven to be from Deorr and was their blood in the diaper?

20:42
SB: You know I’m not aware of any diaper found outside of the camp, and I don’t recall any blood ever being observed on a diaper.

 

[Purplepixii]

Thank you all for the warm welcome and the best wishes. It wouldn't be fair to tease the story about my own son being kidnapped so I will share for those interested. My son was parentally kidnapped/abducted by his non-custodial mother.

Respectfully snipped by me

Thanks so much for sharing your story with us! Glad to hear your son is doing well & I wish you an uneventful life

Welcome to WebSleuths :welcome:

 

[pappa rob]

Sorry I'm still not believing anything yet, I guess I spent too much time in "misery", the show me state. "No comments" don't do it for me, neither do innuendos or illusions. Anyone's life under a microscope will seem to fall apart or seem disconnected, but at that perspective what doesn't?

 

[pappa rob]

Thank you all for the warm welcome and the best wishes. It wouldn't be fair to tease the story about my own son being kidnapped so I will share for those interested. My son was parentally kidnapped/abducted by his non-custodial mother. We used to split physical custody 3 days for me and 4 days for my ex. I had full legal custody due to a bitter court battle where a mountain of lies, false DFYS reports, and custodial interference gave me legal custody of my young son.

My ex is from another country and one of my fears was she would leave and take our son "as she often threatened". Despite being on the "No Fly" list and me possessing his passport my fear came true. My wife was able to add our 2.5 year old son onto her passport like a footnote and jump on a plane and take him 12 hours away.

It took about 45 days for our state dept to find out my wife and son were in another country, during that window the police wanted to make sure I didn't do a Scott Peterson to them, hence the lie detector among other things. Once I knew for sure where my son was, I filed a Hague Application. It took 3 years and 10 months, 4 court trips, and 5 international flights, but I got my son back. He was 6 when I got him home. He had being living a horrible life and was not in the best of shape when I finally was able to bring him home. I will tell you all that he is 11 now, medically in great shape, physically well, and most importantly very happy. I remarried in the ensuing years and my current wife is an angel and supported me during my 4 year quest to get my son back. We have a daughter together and all 4 of us are very happy together. I am so sorry to my son for the trauma he went through in his life but would not have been able to live with myself if I left him living in an abusive home in another country without trying to save him.

Thanks for your input and I'm so glad you got your son back. You've got to fight for your children and grandchildren. I'm still there, welcome and thank you..

 

[renarde]

I wish someone would go back and talk to RC, now that we know her bar/restaurant was one place DeOrr might've last been seen. In that case, why didn't RC mention that, a month later? Seems important.

Did her RSO status keep her from talking about this particular part of DeOrr's story? Or did someone else? Or was it edited out of her interview?

http://m.localnews8.com/news/onemonth-mark-of-the-search-for-deorr-kunz-jr/34638970

 

[Rayemonde]

Ok, I didn't remember him putting it that way.

Rayemonde, can you tell me where that transcribed interview is? TIA

ETA: Nevermind, I found it.

Sorry, it's transcribed in the media timeline thread

 

[Niner]

Late to the game again... but wanted to comment.'

snipped by me...
- the "camping trip", as described by SB, puts IR in his car, GGPA in his trailer, and the K's in the bed of the pickup. who goes camping with a toddler to sleep in the bed of a pickup (not judging, asking)? was there a tent??? if not, IMO the K's never planned on "camping" and were there for another reason...

but the Sheriff said:

"~1:00pm - ~1:10pm – arrive at campgrounds / start setting up tents, etc. (TV Interview: Haven't left the campsite since 1 pm (DK) also see Nancy Grace interview above.) and per Tricia/Bessie/Bowerman interview of 1/27/16 – IR confirms seeing DeOrr alive and well at least at approx. 1:10pm – 1:30ishpm. Link: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12319129#post12319129 See discussion at 23:00"

This is from "my" timeline - I know, I know... but I do remember "someone" saying that after the store, that DK started setting up tents for his family. So I believe they only slept in the bed of truck/or the Suburban that first night.

:welcome6: to The Apparition to WS!! :confetti:

There were two posts made on social media (by TC I think) and so to be considered rumour of course. One was that the trip had been planned and that other family were due to join them there over the weekend. The other was that Jessica's mum asked her and VDK to go camping, as Grandpa and Isaac (who had been there before) were going and she wanted someone to keep an eye on Grandpa.

That's what I remember too... :thinking:

okay posting this, and going to the next page to read... cguru: