ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[Jackeee]

I often have to spend a lot of time catching up when I've been off here for a few days, so I apologize if this has been covered. Do we know how this camping trip came about? Whose idea was it?

 

[needtoknow]

SABBM

Will delete my post again if this is not allowed... but what would constitute "concrete physical evidence" ?
We know there were three 911 calls. And four polys given.
But would this evidence have to be something else ?
Anyone with some more experience with forensics have an idea ?
Tia.
:moo:

My guess is, whether poly or by questioning everyone - the stories don't add up according to the timeline, and keep changing. Maybe it's just circumstantial evidence that points to them?

 

[Little Ol Me]

I am no expert but I think getting a search warrant for the house was simple enough as there is probable cause (missing child) same with the vehicles. Getting the cell carrier to release their info is probably legally more complicated. The cell carrier has a duty to protect it's customers privacy and can't just give out data easily. They also have corporate counsels who are going to make sure everything is legit before they open up. Factor in the pings come from whoever's tower is closest so now you are probably dealing with a carrier for phone service and whoever owns the tower that was supplying signal up at the campsite.

I'm certainly no expert either, but IMO they had all the cell ping information a long time ago. I'm not sure they needed a warrant for the cell ping information.
The parents willingly gave their phones to LE for examination. So I would assume that they'd also give consent for the company to give LE the ping info.

SB: Sure. There were multiple calls, you know, and we’ve checked some of them out. Some of them were attempted and they didn’t go through. Some of them weren’t received. Some of them were made to them that didn’t go through. That’s kind of an area where the cell service is not consistent. We seized …we were actually given all cell phones and we gathered the data from those and have examined them extensively and still are.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page4

 

[bessie]

Asking locals to share gossip and rumors?? I think not.

link

 

[BeeFriendly]

SABBM

Will delete my post again if this is not allowed... but what would constitute "concrete physical evidence" ?
We know there were three 911 calls. And four polys given.
But would this evidence have to be something else ?
Anyone with some more experience with forensics have an idea ?
Tia.
:moo:

No forensic experience here..heck I'm still trying to figure out what SABBM means. I have no clue what they may have. I did hear Klein say there was physical evidence as to what happened in his KID Radio interview Part 2 @ the 42 second mark. http://590kid.com/2016/01/28/former-deorr-kunz-investigator/

Forensic lab results may have come back from the bed of the truck, cab, etc. <modsnip>There could be evidence from computers, facebook, the ax or overalls, diaper, phone pings. No one really knows...just hoping we find out soon.

 

[desert-blue]

Most likely because a reporter requested it.

IMO, there are probably copies of all 3 calls out there.
Otherwise how would Kline know the time of the calls, 14:22, 14:26 & 14:28.
I think he requested a transcript of the calls before SB decided not to release any more copies.

In Idaho, 911 calls are public record (however, a public record request can be denied for various reasons). It's strange that the media didn't request copies of all three (although maybe they did and the county decided to release only the one). Or, it could be that the media did not know there were three calls and therefore only requested JM's call. I find it odd, regardless.

 

[Dee10]

I'm certainly no expert either, but IMO they had all the cell ping information a long time ago. I'm not sure they needed a warrant for the cell ping information.
The parents willingly gave their phones to LE for examination. So I would assume that they'd also give consent for the company to give LE the ping info.

I believe the actual ping information comes from the cell phone company & towers and a warrant would be needed for those records to be released. But, as

SB: Sure. There were multiple calls, you know, and we&#8217;ve checked some of them out. Some of them were attempted and they didn&#8217;t go through. Some of them weren&#8217;t received. Some of them were made to them that didn&#8217;t go through. That&#8217;s kind of an area where the cell service is not consistent. We seized &#8230;we were actually given all cell phones and we gathered the data from those and have examined them extensively and still are.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page4

I believe the actual ping information comes from the cell phone company & towers owners and a warrant would be needed for those in depth records to be searched/retreived and released. I remember from other cases it can take a few months, but I don't remember this long and to my very limited understanding, you need experts to take the ping info. & make sense of them. Maybe the additional time in this case comes from a late start and/or as SB stated in your link "That&#8217;s kind of an area where the cell service is not consistent." Maybe the remote area is causing issues as SB indicated they "still are" examining them. JMO

 

[ZooSleuth]

I'm certainly no expert either, but IMO they had all the cell ping information a long time ago. I'm not sure they needed a warrant for the cell ping information.
The parents willingly gave their phones to LE for examination. So I would assume that they'd also give consent for the company to give LE the ping info.

SB: Sure. There were multiple calls, you know, and we’ve checked some of them out. Some of them were attempted and they didn’t go through. Some of them weren’t received. Some of them were made to them that didn’t go through. That’s kind of an area where the cell service is not consistent. We seized …we were actually given all cell phones and we gathered the data from those and have examined them extensively and still are.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page4

I doubt that any LE can get ping data without a warrant. You can't just call up your cell phone company and get your own ping data, so I would assume you couldn't just consent to LE to get your ping data. Warrants are especially necessary for this type of data.

Also, as @Dee10 mentioned, ping data comes from the cell company and/or the tower company's logs, it's not stored on the phone, so LE having possession of the phone(s) doesn't get them anywhere as far as ping data goes.

 

[LietKynes]

I think that when this case gets resolved (and they find DeOrr~~Hopefully)....and tell us all the news of what really came down, I'm going to totally lose it...It will then be so real and so final and so awful....There's a part of me holding onto a thread of hope that he is OK somewhere (but I don't really think so). This is like a slow drawn out grieving. I've gotten so attached to this little baby.

RSBM

Ikr ? Poor little blue-eyed boy with the goofy grin.

Off-topic a bit... but I sat and cried at my computer the day the news broke on nbc (?) ; about "...man burns down house with two children inside.." The breaking news mentioned the man being involved in a custody battle , whose wife had gone missing earlier.
Even before reading further, I KNEW it was Josh Powell.
( Btw, that was not true-- the custody battle. Susan's mom had said later that week that she'd encouraged the boys to visit their dad , she wasn't trying to keep Charlie and Braden from him. However my opinion is that Susan's parents and many others felt it was risky letting Josh have visits, even supervised ones, with the boys. And was that true. )

You can get attached to these innocent little ones even when they're not personally known to you.
:moo:

 

[desert-blue]

I thought he was referring to the other 2 calls that were made by GGF and DK as well as JM's. Everyone has asked him, why haven't they released VDK's? I had no idea GGF had made one too before Kleins Q&A.

Yes, I agree that he meant that all three calls could be evidence. I was referring to JM's call in my comment just because we have heard her call and I was wondering what part(s) might be evidence (or it could be that parts were edited out before it was released... who knows...).

 

[ILOKAL]

Yes, I agree that he meant that all three calls could be evidence. I was referring to JM's call in my comment just because we have heard her call and I was wondering what part(s) might be evidence (or it could be that parts were edited out before it was released... who knows...).

The evidence might simply be she "sounded" more calm than she should have. That she said DeOrr had been missing about an hour when perhaps the timeline seems to say otherwise. Of course it's evidence. It's one more JM statement. IMO

 

[bessie]

I doubt that any LE can get ping data without a warrant. You can't just call up your cell phone company and get your own ping data, so I would assume you couldn't just consent to LE to get your ping data. Warrants are especially necessary for this type of data.

I agree and disagree.

11th Circuit Finds No 4th Amendment Violation In Obtaining Of Cell Tower Data

Mealey's (May 26, 2015, 11:26 PM ET) -- ATLANTA — A trial court’s granting an order compelling a third-party phone company to produce cellular tower data related to the defendant in an armed robbery case did not violate his rights under the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, an 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals en banc majority ruled May 5, upholding the trial court’s judgment (United States of America v. Quartavious Davis, No. 12-12928, 11th Cir.; 2015 U.S. App. LEXIS 7385).
(Opinion available. Document #97-150521-024Z.)

---

This type of non-content evidence, lawfully created by a third-party telephone company for legitimate business purposes, does not belong to Davis, even if it concerns him. Like the security camera surveillance images introduced into evidence at his trial, MetroPCS’s cell tower records were not Davis’s to withhold.

The stored telephone records produced in this case, and in many other criminal cases, serve compelling governmental interests. Historical cell tower location records are routinely used to investigate the full gamut of state and federal crimes, including child abductions, bombings, kidnappings, murders, robberies, sex offenses, and terrorism-related offenses.

Such evidence is particularly valuable during the early stages of an investigation, when the police lack probable cause and are confronted with multiple suspects. In such cases, § 2703(d) orders—like other forms of compulsory process not subject to the search warrant procedure—help to build probable cause against the guilty, deflect suspicion from the innocent, aid in the search for truth, and judiciously allocate scarce investigative resources.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/15-146-op-below.pdf

---

Also, as @Dee10 mentioned, ping data comes from the cell company and/or the tower company's logs, it's not stored on the phone, so LE having possession of the phone(s) doesn't get them anywhere as far as ping data goes.

Location data can be accessed through a device if the owner opts to allow location tracking through Google, for instance, or other apps which use location services.But that data isn't as comprehensive as the historical cell tower data normally used by LE agencies to track a suspect's (or victim's) movements.

As an FYI: In November, 2015, the United States Supreme Court denied a petition from the ACLU to review Davis.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docketfiles/15-146.htm

 

[Little Ol Me]

Thanks Dee10, ZooSleuth, and Bessie,
...always learning.

 

[persimmon]

Seems strange to me that JM didn't seem to have any pics of DeOrr posted to her fb page until after July 10, 2015. Certainly does not illustrate criminal behavior, but it's worth noting there's a shift that occurred.

 

[Nocturnal 911]

Man, I just watched this for the first time in it's entirety....
He doesn't let her get a friggin word in edgewise does he??!!! Shut up already! He's just rambling wayyy too much for my comfort zone.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...ew&id=41&vid=81828cb01235bf8ea5ed308c39ed375d

 

[persimmon]

I would think LE could obtain a warrant for records and they likely have because companies do not keep data forever. I believe each company has there own policy but some only keep 6 months of data and others have more history.

Ping information has become such a valuable tool in investigations and trials that they must have obtained that data. Perhaps its incriminating even? I feel strongly that LE has much more evidence they have shared. Jmo but I think they will search for DeOrr's body asap and likely in new spots, but I think if they fail to locate it they will move forward with charges within the next few months.

 

[Tr.]

I would think LE could obtain a warrant for records and they likely have because companies do not keep data forever. I believe each company has there own policy but some only keep 6 months of data and others have more history.

Ping information has become such a valuable tool in investigations and trials that they must have obtained that data. Perhaps its incriminating even? I feel strongly that LE has much more evidence they have shared. Jmo but I think they will search for DeOrr's body asap and likely in new spots, but I think if they fail to locate it they will move forward with charges within the next few months.

Do you have an opinion on what charges could be brought?
I get the sense that Grandpa and Issac's testimony could be paramount here in the absence of a body or confession of some sort.

 

[Nocturnal 911]

I agree and disagree.

11th Circuit Finds No 4th Amendment Violation In Obtaining Of Cell Tower Data

Mealey's (May 26, 2015, 11:26 PM ET) -- ATLANTA &#8212; A trial court&#8217;s granting an order compelling a third-party phone company to produce cellular tower data related to the defendant in an armed robbery case did not violate his rights under the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, an 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals en banc majority ruled May 5, upholding the trial court&#8217;s judgment (United States of America v. Quartavious Davis, No. 12-12928, 11th Cir.; 2015 U.S. App. LEXIS 7385).
(Opinion available. Document #97-150521-024Z.)

---

This type of non-content evidence, lawfully created by a third-party telephone company for legitimate business purposes, does not belong to Davis, even if it concerns him. Like the security camera surveillance images introduced into evidence at his trial, MetroPCS&#8217;s cell tower records were not Davis&#8217;s to withhold.

The stored telephone records produced in this case, and in many other criminal cases, serve compelling governmental interests. Historical cell tower location records are routinely used to investigate the full gamut of state and federal crimes, including child abductions, bombings, kidnappings, murders, robberies, sex offenses, and terrorism-related offenses.

Such evidence is particularly valuable during the early stages of an investigation, when the police lack probable cause and are confronted with multiple suspects. In such cases, § 2703(d) orders&#8212;like other forms of compulsory process not subject to the search warrant procedure&#8212;help to build probable cause against the guilty, deflect suspicion from the innocent, aid in the search for truth, and judiciously allocate scarce investigative resources.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/15-146-op-below.pdf

---

Location data can be accessed through a device if the owner opts to allow location tracking through Google, for instance, or other apps which use location services.But that data isn't as comprehensive as the historical cell tower data normally used by LE agencies to track a suspect's (or victim's) movements.

As an FYI: In November, 2015, the United States Supreme Court denied a petition from the ACLU to review Davis.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docketfiles/15-146.htm

Agreed!

Adding---- this case spurred many changes in legislation in regard to LE use of "pinging" for location information

http://consumerist.com/2008/09/17/v...p-locate-body-of-missing-woman-for-four-days/

There are instances where we can have a cellphone "pinged" without a court order/warrant. New legislation requires the disclosure of LAT/LONG when a law enforcement agency cites the need to locate a person in an emergency situation. If an officer reasonably believes that there is an emergency involving the immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury etc. Our "Exigent Circumstance Request" forms give the examples of "Abduction, Missing Person at risk or Dangerous Fugitive".

I use the word "ping" figuratively, as it is my understanding that the cell provider cannot send a signal OUT to a phone for a response-- or "ping" it without a court order--
HOWEVER-- in the cases where I'm requesting a "ping" from a provider in the case of a suicidal person, etc. I am given the last tower it "pinged" off of and the tower location. I'm given the estimated miles and direction from the tower and approx. LAT & LONG and the degree of certainty. The accuracy seems to depend on the varied carrier capabilities, the technology of the phone itself, whether we're using triangulation or GPS etc.

SO-- if said person was last known to be in the woods in a certain area and hasn't moved for 4 hours the information will NOT change with every new update we request. Even if they've physically moved, if no more recent communication has occurred between the phone and a tower it will not change, because in these emergent request situations, no new PING is sent out. The CARRIER cannot send a "PING"---

So in the absence of a court order for a request for the company to SEND a ping----the most we can do to acquire fresh data is to attempt to contact the phone via call/text and hope for updated location information. And as always- the phone could now be left behind, powered down, battery removed etc. There is NO guarantee that the phones LAT/LONG location is current.

The penalties for abusing this are STIFF.

 

[Nocturnal 911]

I would think LE could obtain a warrant for records and they likely have because companies do not keep data forever. I believe each company has there own policy but some only keep 6 months of data and others have more history.

Ping information has become such a valuable tool in investigations and trials that they must have obtained that data. Perhaps its incriminating even? I feel strongly that LE has much more evidence they have shared. Jmo but I think they will search for DeOrr's body asap and likely in new spots, but I think if they fail to locate it they will move forward with charges within the next few months.

Trust me when I tell you, they certainly DID send request to preserve/obtain any info available for this. I'm sure it does vary from carrier to carrier, but in recent missing person/suicide our agency had (that stretched for days) we were able to obtain all calls, pics and text messages. They're not going to share any of that info. Not during an open investigation

 

[persimmon]

Do you have an opinion on what charges could be brought?
I get the sense that Grandpa and Issac's testimony could be paramount here in the absence of a body or confession of some sort.

Do you have an opinion on what charges could be brought?
I get the sense that Grandpa and Issac's testimony could be paramount here in the absence of a body or confession of some sort.

No. I'm really on the fence about whether this was an accident/cover up or a situation involving abuse. SBs request for people to come forward regarding firsthand observations of interaction between the parents and DeOrr is a strong indicator they have evidence of past abuse. It was a very specific request from a man of few words. But, Idk.

It would seem like they would be critical witnesses, but idk there either. Isaac seemed genuinely surprised about them being named suspects. So strange! And I have a hard time having an opinion about GGF because he's been absent from everything and I've never heard a first person statement or anything concrete outside of Trina's comments in People magazine where she recounts his story.