ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #24

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I don't think JM's employer will release the exact reason for her dismissal to the public. That's not how personnel departments handle things. If it's needed for a trial, that's a different story. I know someone that worked in an "at will" state. She lost her job due to sickness. Since the sickness was no fault of her own she was able to collect unemployment. When she later contacted her former employer for the dates she was out of the office she was told they would only disclose that to her via a lawyer because she was no longer their employee. Her own records!

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

To those of us who think DeOrr was never at the campsite alive, do you think his parents took his body there to dispose of it, or do you think he was dead and buried before the parents even set off on the trip?
And what makes you think he was never at the campsite alive? I think he was probably never at the store alive, but was at the campsite.

According to Klein, they have a witness who saw DeOrr alive at 6pm the evening before he went missing. I'm assuming that was in Idaho Falls, since Klein couldn't find anyone at the Silver Dollar / Stage Stop who said they saw DeOrr. My feeling (although I have nothing at all to back it up, it's just a feeling) is that it has to be something horrific like sexual abuse or a child *advertiser censored* ring. I think an incident happened and he was killed (it could have been an "accident" but through something like sexual abuse, *advertiser censored*, etc.). I feel the camping trip was already planned - meaning, I believe GGP and IR were already up there and, maybe, in their haste, Jessica and VDK made a split second decision to head up to Timber Creek Campground since it would be the perfect place to dispose of the body, plus it would give them an alibi. Now, that being said, they could have disposed of it ANYWHERE on the long and winding road from Idaho Falls to the campground, but Klein and LE are planning on searching a specific area of the mountain come spring, so I am inclined to believe that the body is up there.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

I put out an email to Chelsea to see if she would investigate and get back to us. I think it warrants investigation/confirmation/documentation. That way we can discuss it as a fact or as a sideshow.

Not sure I'm in agreement with you on this one. Jessica's job as a CNA pays barely over minimum wage and employees like that are a dime a dozen - they come and they go. It's like working at a fast food joint. If that's the type of place she worked and got fired during all of this mess I'd shrug my shoulders and say, "Sounds about right to me. She'll find another job somewhere else."

 

[DatelineFan]

According to Klein, they have a witness who saw DeOrr alive at 6pm the evening before he went missing. I'm assuming that was in Idaho Falls, since Klein couldn't find anyone at the Silver Dollar / Stage Stop who said they saw DeOrr. My feeling (although I have nothing at all to back it up, it's just a feeling) is that it has to be something horrific like sexual abuse or a child *advertiser censored* ring. I think an incident happened and he was killed (it could have been an "accident" but through something like sexual abuse, *advertiser censored*, etc.). I feel the camping trip was already planned - meaning, I believe GGP and IR were already up there and, maybe, in their haste, Jessica and VDK made a split second decision to head up to Timber Creek Campground since it would be the perfect place to dispose of the body, plus it would give them an alibi. Now, that being said, they could have disposed of it ANYWHERE on the long and winding road from Idaho Falls to the campground, but Klein and LE are planning on searching a specific area of the mountain come spring, so I am inclined to believe that the body is up there.

I really think that if child *advertiser censored* was involved, LE would have found plenty of evidence on the computers.

Personally, I don't think child *advertiser censored* has anything to do with this case.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I really think that if child *advertiser censored* was involved, LE would have found plenty of evidence on the computers.

Personally, I don't think child *advertiser censored* has anything to do with this case.

Me neither.

 

[MBK]

<modsnip>

I don't buy the abduction theory, never really have given the location. But again I state only four people were there and know the truth. We can only guess, theorize, speculate, and assume.

All this talk about a diaper and somehow that there was one (or lack of others) suddenly becomes evidence to prove they were bad parents. I don't know why their stories change, or why they've done some of the things they have but I am still withholding judgement until I hear something official from someone in a position to give official information.

The diaper bit isn't evidence that they're bad parents . . . it simply goes to the PLAUSIBILITY of their little camping charade. A few more diapers, maybe their (fill in the blank) would be more believable. Right now, it just stinks to high heaven.

 

[TxJan1971]

Recording:
4) Last Mr. Browning made some very serious statements regarding me and myself violating the law by "giving legal advice." This evening I have reviewed - and my legal counsel has reviewed the audio recording of the event Mr. Browning misstates. The events that are described by Mr. Browning on January 27, 2016 are not factual. In fact the meeting Mr. Browing references was a family meeting and briefing to which Vernal was not invited nor was Mr. Browning. Clearly, and without a doubt, Mr. Brownings statement is incorrect. I publicly ask Mr. Browning to retract his statement.

I further want to state publicly that I do not believe Mr. Browning is making these statements in any manner other than what his client at the time told him. I believe Mr. Browning is being misled. Again, the recording of the meeting and the description of the event Mr. Browning has described are not even close. We will reach out to Mr. Browning in the next 24 hours to provide him a copy of the recording before he files any suit. Again, we do not believe Mr. Browning is making his statements with anything other than misinformation by his clients. He has an obligation to do his duty to investigate before filing a suit. We again will reach out to him tomorrow.


There may be another mention. Back to searching.

 

[Little Ol Me]

Regarding the diaper, diapers, or lack there of.
We really don't know if there was more than 1 diaper or not.
I believe that TBC, mentioned throwing a dirty diaper away in the church trash, that was at the campsite serving food during the search. Was that true?
Also we don't know if the family could have taken trash with them to Leadore to dispose of. There could have been more diapers, or none at all.

 

[DatelineFan]

RECORDINGS

Voila!

Klein says Isaac Reinwand, who was at the campsite the day the toddler went missing, has also come forward with new information.

"This includes verification of some cell phone pings, this includes some ground operation cell phone signal and also some recordings that were made," Klein said.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/idaho/investigator-lawyer-sound-off-on-kunz-cas/65018463

Great catch! I never noticed this! I wonder if someone took videos!

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

I really think that if child *advertiser censored* was involved, LE would have found plenty of evidence on the computers.

Personally, I don't think child *advertiser censored* has anything to do with this case.

Yes, you do make a good point. However, just look at the lengths JM and VDK have gone (and continue to go) to cover up their son's death. Who's to say that they would not have been super careful about an electronic trail re: child *advertiser censored*? What about sexual abuse? There likely wouldn't have been an electronic trail for that, right?

I know, I know, it's totally ludicrous my theory and I understand that. But I can't help but think that once we find out the truth, it will be way worse than any of us has imagined. And sexual abuse / child *advertiser censored* is the worst place my mind can go with this.

Remember, Klein has said that he and his team have been dumbfounded by the sheer cold heartedness of the parents. That statement speaks VOLUMES to me. Volumes.

 

[MBK]

Yes, you do make a good point. However, just look at the lengths JM and VDK have gone (and continue to go) to cover up their son's death. Who's to say that they would not have been super careful about an electronic trail re: child *advertiser censored*? What about sexual abuse? There likely wouldn't have been an electronic trail for that, right?

I know, I know, it's totally ludicrous my theory and I understand that. But I can't help but think that once we find out the truth, it will be way worse than any of us has imagined. And sexual abuse / child *advertiser censored* is the worst place my mind can go with this.

Remember, Klein has said that he and his team have been dumbfounded by the sheer cold heartedness of the parents. That statement speaks VOLUMES to me. Volumes.

Just like in the case of Jon Benet, with sexual abuse go diapers.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

Just like in the case of Jon Benet, with sexual abuse go diapers.

Wait, what? I'm not sure I understand. I never followed the Jon Benet case closely. Can you please explain (Readers' Digest version, if possible, ha!)?

 

[courtneyb]

The diaper bit isn't evidence that they're bad parents . . . it simply goes to the PLAUSIBILITY of their little camping charade. A few more diapers, maybe their (fill in the blank) would be more believable. Right now, it just stinks to high heaven.

I am on my 4th toddler of potty training age. I changed WAY more diapers in an evening than one during this stage. And that was with a child who is indoors most of the time. When my kids would spend a lot of time outside, in diapers, but starting to work on potty training, I found that I was having to change diapers more frequently. They would get into puddles, dirt, mud, etc. Also, all of mine went through a lengthy period of resisting the potty training, requiring more frequent diaper changes. I think because they were aware that pottying was an issue that we were trying to enforce change in, they would try to go in their diaper before mommy would make them sit on the potty. Sure, they have more control over those functions, but all of mine put that control to use in trying to resist the potty training, resulting in more frequently soiled diapers than just prior to beginning potty training.

I'm not trying to point out that they are bad parents, I'm trying to point out that I don't think they had a child with them on the trip whose diaper needed changing frequently. At least they didn't have him with them for very long. If at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MBK]

Wait, what? I'm not sure I understand. I never followed the Jon Benet case closely. Can you please explain (Readers' Digest version, if possible, ha!)?

She was wearing pull-ups at an advanced age. She was sexually abused. It seems to me that if a toddler is being sexually abused at the time he is around the age of potty training, the potty training just isn't going to happen. He will still be wearing a diaper. Even MORE of a reason to be wondering - - - where are the diapers? This is not a tangential question. How many diapers did they bring with them? How many were used? etc., etc.

By the way, for all the haters - - - I am not calling them bad parents, they're terrible parents - - they are cold-hearted, pathologically narcissistic liars.

 

[Hatfield]

I for one, believe this was no accident and that Deorr was dead before they even made it to camp. jmo

JMO
I think that is a possibility and the main reason I would think that way is the way the trip seemed to be organized in a hurried fashion. I still think it could be an accident but an accident that happened maybe Wednesday or Tuesday even.

Below are things that make me think the trip was rushed. All JMO

-Seemed like a last minute trip was planned to me.

-Trying to get food at restaurant Thursday night. If well planned camping trip then it seems food would have been cooked and ate at the campground. That is part of the fun of camping. Hot dogs over an open fire. Etc.

-It was said VDK + JM did not even know IR and he ends up on this camping trip. Could be a further sign it was a rushed trip planned. Like GGP asking them hey can my friend IR come along so I have company?

-There was discussion that VDK lied to his employer to take the day off instead of planning the camping trip and just asking for a day off to go camping like normally would be done. Not sure if this has been verified or not if he called in sick to get the day off.

-The biggest sign to me that it was a rushed trip is they went to a place that VDK + JM had never been to before.
It seems if you plan a camping trip you usually go to a place you at least have been to before. Not always but just more ammunition it could have been a rushed trip to go somewhere very remote. Maybe GGP said hey I know a place that is really remote.

The bottom line is it seemed like a thrown together trip to me which is not too unusual on the surface but as soon as the boy ended up missing then it does become unusual and if the trip was thrown together then we have to question the health of the boy before they even left town.

When IR was interviewed I didn't take his answers as a solid answer about whether he saw the boy there at all. His answer sounded wishy washy to me. I took it like he was following along with what was said by his friend and his friends relatives and didn't want to rock the boat at that time. I think he has realized the seriousness of it all by now and he knows he has to protect himself. I am guessing if he was asked the same questions whether he actually saw the boy we may get a not totally sure response.

 

[MBK]

Regarding the diaper, diapers, or lack there of.
We really don't know if there was more than 1 diaper or not.
I believe that TBC, mentioned throwing a dirty diaper away in the church trash, that was at the campsite serving food during the search. Was that true?
Also we don't know if the family could have taken trash with them to Leadore to dispose of. There could have been more diapers, or none at all.

IF the dirty diaper in the tree was a "myth" (like the minnows, like the Rubicon, like so much of the story) . .. then . well . . . the way I see it, no diapers, no live kid. Or, paucity of diapers, the less time he was alive. I'm calling it like I see it.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

She was wearing pull-ups at an advanced age. She was sexually abused. It seems to me that if a toddler is being sexually abused at the time he is around the age of potty training, the potty training just isn't going to happen. He will still be wearing a diaper. Even MORE of a reason to be wondering - - - where are the diapers? This is not a tangential question. How many diapers did they bring with them? How many were used? etc., etc.

By the way, for all the haters - - - I am not calling them bad parents, they're terrible parents - - they are cold-hearted, pathologically narcissistic liars.

Well, well, well. You have got me thinking, indeed you do! Like I said, I've always thought there was some sort of sexual abuse / child *advertiser censored* involved, yet I didn't have anything to back up that theory. Hmmm...gotta love this forum and the great exchange of ideas.
:thinking:

 

[giagreen]

She was wearing pull-ups at an advanced age. She was sexually abused. It seems to me that if a toddler is being sexually abused at the time he is around the age of potty training, the potty training just isn't going to happen. He will still be wearing a diaper. Even MORE of a reason to be wondering - - - where are the diapers? This is not a tangential question. How many diapers did they bring with them? How many were used? etc., etc.

By the way, for all the haters - - - I am not calling them bad parents, they're terrible parents - - they are cold-hearted, pathologically narcissistic liars.

I'm not real sure what your getting at.
JonBenet wore diapers at night time cause she wet the bed. That's way diffrent then a potty training two and half year old.



Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

 

[MBK]

I'm not real sure what your getting at.
JonBenet wore diapers at night time cause she wet the bed. That's way diffrent then a potty training two and half year old. Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

Don't try.

 

[haven71]

Where has it been proven beyond reasonable doubt that she in fact did kill her child? Sorry but i haven't seen it yet.
And if they are covering an accident because of negligence or whatever, then that still doesn't make them guilty of killing their child, but makes them guilty of a different type of crime.

(modsnip)

So, I'm going to discuss something else. Emotions.

I'd be interested in PURE SPECULATION about what emotions you believe VDK and JM have shown in their interviews. I want to know what you *think* you saw, and maybe who seems to be the "guiltier" of the two.

I'll start. LOL

Vernal. Assertive, controlling, nervous, awestruck (first interview), disgust with the public, defensiveness (not really an emotion, but hey).

Jessica. Cold, passive, uncaring, defeated, calm, poor actress (couch interview).

In the beginning, VDK seemed more suspicious to me, mainly due to the first interview. Nervous, incomplete sentences, going on and on about SAR, taking charge of the interview, inferring that the worst rumor they'd heard on social media had to do with his boss not letting him take time off to search (WHAT??? I guarantee people were already pointing fingers at these two and THIS is what he deems important and hurtful???). I could see VDK doling out a punishment which lead to Deorr's demise.

Jessica. I toyed with the idea that she was/is a victim of domestic violence. The passivity and letting Deorr take total control of the interview may have hinted at this, then again, maybe she is just normally introverted and fine with letting him speak for her too. She did give him LOOKS though, telepathic little zingers like "don't tell them we killed our baby." (Ok, sorry, not funny). As time has gone on and we know more about Jessica, the more suspicious I am of her. I have not seen any hint that she feels a bond with Deorr. After learning she does not have custody of her other children (for whatever reason) and assertions that she did not want any more children, I can see her being abusive and/or allowing VDK to abuse him without much interference.

EVEN IF it was purely accidental, where is the grief? They've lost their baby one way or another!!! If there was a cover-up, there should still be grief. I did see VDK get teary, but not much. Jessica sniffed as if crying on the couch interview (yet didn't wipe her eyes or nose).

Maybe they do have feelings and grieved in private but add the lack of emotion, desperation, and urgency to everything else (their lies, priorities, defensiveness, not searching, etc) and it makes me wonder if Deorr was EVER really truly loved by his parents.