ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #24

[Harley Diva]

I've thought of this too, what if something happened to Deorr in Idaho Falls, they disposed of his body somewhere else, then they went up to Timber Creek as part of the cover up. It's concerning that it sounds as though no one had seen Deorr in Leadore, or for that matter since who knows when. :scared:

Also, Clark Canyon Reservoir is 123 miles north of Idaho Falls, and via I-15 is a round about route to Leadore. I don't know, maybe there's evidence they didn't travel that direction. It seems there could be so many possibilities, I sure hope LE has some kind of evidence pointing toward a specific area to search. I also wonder if Klein stating the search would be somewhere in the vicinity of the lower campground is somewhat of a red herring.

IMO if I were in a situation of this kind, I would hide the body as far away from the campsite as possible without taking to much time. Drive 30 min in the opposite direction in an area I've heard family talk about or have been myself. Dispose of the body off a less traveled road in a shallow grave. I can go visit the body as I wish because it's accessible from either direction. The back route from IF to the reservoir and down may not be under surveillance. I go back to my campground and call 911 with a story of a missing person. The SAR and LE teams will be looking around the campground and completely off track. Just trying to think like a criminal here.

 

[pepelepolecat]

You remind me of the Marine out in California Cris Lee who killed his friends wife.

"The accused killer of Erin Corwin, the Marine wife whose decomposing remains were found in a California desert mine shaft last August, maintained his plea of not guilty Wednesday as a judge ruled that the case should proceed toward trial. " http://www.people.com/article/erin-corwin-murder-trial-chris-lee-not-guilty-plea

A miracle she was ever found.

Given the number of mines that seem to be in the area, I'm afraid he may never be found.

 

[Tr.]

Maybe I'm not fully awake yet. I don't see the store visits quote at that link.

The store purchases remark is in one of the very last Klein interview.....looking for the link to the video.

Found it @ 3min in.
http://www.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992

 

[Harley Diva]

Please forgive me if this has been asked in a previous thread, I'm new here and haven't been through them all. People keep mentioning that JM and VDK have never been to the Timber Creek area before. Is there any proof to back this up other than what the family/friends and suspects have said? Who can say for sure they didn't go camping there the summer before? If GGP liked this place and had been before, why not take family members there on more than 1 occasion? And if not take them maybe they get enough information from stories and tales to know the area well enough? Also, if an accident happened, was it GGP or IR who suggested the area to hide the body if they were the only ones who knew the area? There are old mine shafts up there, do they drive around until they find one to drop the body into, and if so why did nobody see them? What does everyone here think about "Where is DeOrr Jr?"? Just curious to everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[The Apparition]

I thought that was odd too. There would be some pretty big changes in a year regarding what a child looks like. I just don't understand what the reasoning would be.

If they thought or wanted everyone to think he was kidnapped, you'd give the most recent picture. You'd want your child found. If you purposely hid your deceased child, why would it matter if you posted a recent photo?

Maybe several phones were given a factory reset that day and no one had pictures to give LE to distribute.

The picture, the wrong age, wrong eye color, the whole long winded senseless story. Someone else put it better in a long post but I always go back to the story. If you listen to that story around the 5 minute clips of VDK talking about helicopters, and name dropping LE, you are like WAIT WHAT? I thought I fell asleep listening to VDK and woke up and missed something, I seriously went back 1 minute and started listening again. The story distilled down to they took off to explore and left Deorr with GGP but never actually told GGP he was in charge of Deorr or made sure Deorr was with him. It just so happens GGP is super old, has memory issues, probably is slower than a toddler, there was a fast moving stream like 20 feet away, and just a little further than that was a huge reservoir. I mean what responsible parent wouldn't agree with that setup?

I digress, my original point was NCMEC is money when you need their help. They tell you what kind of picture to use, they work hand and hand with you and whoever is helping you to get all the physical data correct. They try to get a couple of close friends or family members to help with proofing the poster and signing off on it as accurate. If you notice any issues they will make corrections ASAP and send you a new version to look over.

They did an age progression for my son when he'd been gone about 3 years and sent me a copy, they never publish anything without a parent signing off on it. The age progression was "less than accurate" looking in my mind. I called my guy over their and was like I saw my son about 2 years ago for a second (like a freaking APPARITION) when he was being rushed away by my exes bodyguards at court he doesn't look like that. He apologized which he didn't need to do it wasn't his fault their age progression software basically took pictures of my ex and I and just mashed them up and made a random 5 year old out of it, and they never published the picture. Luckily about 3 months later my ex did a tv interview railing against how the Hague wasn't fair and she never planned on complying with the decision to return my son. He was right there on tv with her so I gave NCMEC the link to the video and they had an expert get a great screen cap photo of my present day son. Long story short they are there to help and you as the parent always keep control of any information that is public.

Fun end story, when I was in a land far,far away after my son was found I needed an emergency passport for my son to leave. As I was in the American embassy with my son his NCMEC poster was all over the walls in both languages. I was getting WILD amounts of side eye from everyone in there. Many of the lower level clerks are foreigners who speak English as a second language and I was getting some kick back from this guy at the window about needing to wait 3 days and come back to the embassy. I walked about 10 feet away and yanked a poster off the wall in front of about 50 people in this place (taking a nice chunk of paint with it) and came back to the window carrying my son and holding the poster. That was the clue he needed to go get an actual American in a suit to help me. Thirty mins later I was on my way with a fresh emergency passport and a letter from the Embassy to give to ICE officials once I got back to NYC. Fun times!

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

Please forgive me if this has been asked in a previous thread, I'm new here and haven't been through them all. People keep mentioning that JM and VDK have never been to the Timber Creek area before. Is there any proof to back this up other than what the family/friends and suspects have said? Who can say for sure they didn't go camping there the summer before? If GGP liked this place and had been before, why not take family members there on more than 1 occasion? And if not take them maybe they get enough information from stories and tales to know the area well enough? Also, if an accident happened, was it GGP or IR who suggested the area to hide the body if they were the only ones who knew the area? There are old mine shafts up there, do they drive around until they find one to drop the body into, and if so why did nobody see them? What does everyone here think about "Where is DeOrr Jr?"? Just curious to everyone's thoughts on this.

I am betting that any mine shafts in the search area were looked at just because it would seem like the perfect place for a toddler to explore / fall into by accident. That being said, perhaps just the opening was looked at and a flashlight shined (shone?) in. I doubt that anyone put on a headlamp and went deep into any mine shaft during the searches. Too dangerous.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

The picture, the wrong age, wrong eye color, the whole long winded senseless story. Someone else put it better in a long post but I always go back to the story. If you listen to that story around the 5 minute clips of VDK talking about helicopters, and name dropping LE, you are like WAIT WHAT? I thought I fell asleep listening to VDK and woke up and missed something, I seriously went back 1 minute and started listening again. The story distilled down to they took off to explore and left Deorr with GGP but never actually told GGP he was in charge of Deorr or made sure Deorr was with him. It just so happens GGP is super old, has memory issues, probably is slower than a toddler, there was a fast moving stream like 20 feet away, and just a little further than that was a huge reservoir. I mean what responsible parent wouldn't agree with that setup?

I digress, my original point was NCMEC is money when you need their help. They tell you what kind of picture to use, they work hand and hand with you and whoever is helping you to get all the physical data correct. They try to get a couple of close friends or family members to help with proofing the poster and signing off on it as accurate. If you notice any issues they will make corrections ASAP and send you a new version to look over.

They did an age progression for my son when he'd been gone about 3 years and sent me a copy, they never publish anything without a parent signing off on it. The age progression was "less than accurate" looking in my mind. I called my guy over their and was like I saw my son about 2 years ago for a second (like a freaking APPARITION) when he was being rushed away by my exes bodyguards at court he doesn't look like that. He apologized which he didn't need to do it wasn't his fault their age progression software basically took pictures of my ex and I and just mashed them up and made a random 5 year old out of it, and they never published the picture. Luckily about 3 months later my ex did a tv interview railing against how the Hague wasn't fair and she never planned on complying with the decision to return my son. He was right there on tv with her so I gave NCMEC the link to the video and they had an expert get a great screen cap photo of my present day son. Long story short they are there to help and you as the parent always keep control of any information that is public.

Fun end story, when I was in a land far,far away after my son was found I needed an emergency passport for my son to leave. As I was in the American embassy with my son his NCMEC poster was all over the walls in both languages. I was getting WILD amounts of side eye from everyone in there. Many of the lower level clerks are foreigners who speak English as a second language and I was getting some kick back from this guy at the window about needing to wait 3 days and come back to the embassy. I walked about 10 feet away and yanked a poster off the wall in front of about 50 people in this place (taking a nice chunk of paint with it) and came back to the window carrying my son and holding the poster. That was the clue he needed to go get an actual American in a suit to help me. Thirty mins later I was on my way with a fresh emergency passport and a letter from the Embassy to give to ICE officials once I got back to NYC. Fun times!

Holy . . . I don't even know what to say. What a story - I had no idea. I am so glad you got your son back. :happydance:

 

[The Apparition]

Holy . . . I don't even know what to say. What a story - I had no idea. I am so glad you got your son back. :happydance:

Thanks ConcernedCitizenID, all is well with both of our lives! I got into my story about 10-15 threads back because all the lie detector stuff, I wanted to give my perspective. As others have stated it's not uncommon for parents to be under some cloud of suspicion when a kid goes missing. I was treated with respect but believe me the cops also treated me as a suspect until it was confirmed my ex and son had left the country. So you don't have to go searching I will paraphrase what I said back on that thread. Lie detector tests suck very badly when you are the one getting examined even when you know you didn't do anything.

 

[Timekeeper65]

The Apparition, I read your original comment about your son and what you both endured. It is good for you to tell us about your experience, gives some perspective to circumstances in this case. Perseverance on your part paid off. So happy that it all ended well for you and you son.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Someone brought up a good point the other day about what could have changed to let LE know where to look in the spring. My understanding is when LE gets a search warrant to pull cell phone records that it sometimes takes a lot of time to get all the detailed records that would include the Cell Tower pings or GPS locations of the cell phone.

And once they get the detailed records then I think it takes a lot of time for LE to sit down and do the mapping they would need to do to try to make sense of the records. They have to plot out all the pings, the cell phone tower locations, the times and dates of the pings, etc.

I think all of that takes quite a bit of time and so I could really see where LE may not have gathered all this research until after the cold had set in.

I have high hopes that LE has spotted something on the cell tower/GPS charts that show they stopped at a certain place for 30 minutes or more which is a rural place.

OT
On my phone, a couple years ago after I had learned how the cell tower/GPS signal works on the phone and how that information can be used by others ("the man" - LOL), my paranoia made me turn off the setting to where my location was not transmitted back to the phone company. I then quickly realized that if I ever got in a car wreck or was lost somewhere then nobody would ever find me so I turned back on the feature.

I think cell phone forensics would be a fascinating job - working out the pings, triangulation, recovering texts / calls / internet use etc. Marrying up all that information and being able to prove someone lied would be so rewarding!

Where do I apply?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Thanks ConcernedCitizenID, all is well with both of our lives! I got into my story about 10-15 threads back because all the lie detector stuff, I wanted to give my perspective. As others have stated it's not uncommon for parents to be under some cloud of suspicion when a kid goes missing. I was treated with respect but believe me the cops also treated me as a suspect until it was confirmed my ex and son had left the country. So you don't have to go searching I will paraphrase what I said back on that thread. Lie detector tests suck very badly when you are the one getting examined even when you know you didn't do anything.

Ha, just seen a joke thing going round FB about how when you (people in general) are going through "nothing to declare" at customs, you panic about having "accidentally packed 3 kilos of cocaine and a dead goat". I guess lie detectors are the same, paranoia would set it when you know what's at stake.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I decided to make a small list of some possible theories of what could have happened. I tried to list some of the main theories that have been mentioned.

1-Boy died earlier that week and trip was planned to make it look like he walked away and got lost. Boy was hidden before they even left and hidden someplace else which is not anywhere near the campground.
When they seemed to suggest someone kidnapped him could be a sign that they knew boy was not in the area and they felt somewhat sorry for all the people having to search needlessly and knew he was not anywhere near campground. One of the interviews they seemed to be pushing the idea that someone took him. Could have been a sign they knew he was not anywhere near campground.

2-Same as above but boy is hidden somewhere near or within 10-20 miles of campground area.

3-Boy was given to someone else to take care of because they did not want the responsibility anymore. Boy was handed off to some other adult(s). The adult(s) is most likely not living too close to their home in Idaho. Maybe someone they met who lives in Canada or some other state in US.

4-Camping trip was real and some sort of accidental death happened where parents feel they would get in trouble if truth known about how he died so boy is hidden somewhere near campground or 10-20 miles around area.

5-Same as above but it was no accident.

There are probably quite a few other theories that could be added and just wanted to list some down to see if anything we know about leans us to one particular theory over another.

I think #4 and have always thought that was the most likely. I think VDK went out in the truck on Friday morning to hide DeOrr, or waited until the infamous store trip with JM. I think his "hauling up the road" trip was to hide something else, or check it was already hidden.

Having said that there are still a dozen other options on the table, which, while ruled out by LE are not fully ruled out in my head. Abduction, mountain lion, wandering off, drowning in the reservoir. All still possible albeit not very likely.

I just want him found :gaah:

 

[ClaireNC]

Please forgive me if this has been asked in a previous thread, I'm new here and haven't been through them all. People keep mentioning that JM and VDK have never been to the Timber Creek area before. Is there any proof to back this up other than what the family/friends and suspects have said? Who can say for sure they didn't go camping there the summer before? If GGP liked this place and had been before, why not take family members there on more than 1 occasion? And if not take them maybe they get enough information from stories and tales to know the area well enough? Also, if an accident happened, was it GGP or IR who suggested the area to hide the body if they were the only ones who knew the area? There are old mine shafts up there, do they drive around until they find one to drop the body into, and if so why did nobody see them? What does everyone here think about "Where is DeOrr Jr?"? Just curious to everyone's thoughts on this.

It is very likely that JM had been to the campground before with her family. VDK said in the long interview that it was his first time there. I think if he was dropped into a mine shaft, it was someplace that one of them knew about before hand. I know there is mining in the area, but, do we know if there are any mines on the same mountain as the campground?

 

[ClaireNC]

The Apparition, thank you for sharing your story. I remember reading your comments about the polygraph experience many threads back. Your perspective is very much appreciated.

So glad you were able to get your son back.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

The Apparition, thank you for sharing your story. I remember reading your comments about the polygraph experience many threads back. Your perspective is very much appreciated.

So glad you were able to get your son back.

Indeed. Just out of curiosity (and don't answer if you don't want to) has your son's mother seen him since you got him back?

 

[mommylicious]

I decided to make a small list of some possible theories of what could have happened. I tried to list some of the main theories that have been mentioned.

1-Boy died earlier that week and trip was planned to make it look like he walked away and got lost. Boy was hidden before they even left and hidden someplace else which is not anywhere near the campground.
When they seemed to suggest someone kidnapped him could be a sign that they knew boy was not in the area and they felt somewhat sorry for all the people having to search needlessly and knew he was not anywhere near campground. One of the interviews they seemed to be pushing the idea that someone took him. Could have been a sign they knew he was not anywhere near campground.

2-Same as above but boy is hidden somewhere near or within 10-20 miles of campground area.

3-Boy was given to someone else to take care of because they did not want the responsibility anymore. Boy was handed off to some other adult(s). The adult(s) is most likely not living too close to their home in Idaho. Maybe someone they met who lives in Canada or some other state in US.

4-Camping trip was real and some sort of accidental death happened where parents feel they would get in trouble if truth known about how he died so boy is hidden somewhere near campground or 10-20 miles around area.

5-Same as above but it was no accident.

There are probably quite a few other theories that could be added and just wanted to list some down to see if anything we know about leans us to one particular theory over another.

I'm casting my vote for #4. I don't think it was premeditated but it was something they felt needed to be covered up. Whether there was abuse, illegal drug use, Benadryl overdose etc I don't know but I don't think it was as simple as accidentally hitting him with the truck, etc.

 

[citizen watch]

To those of us who think DeOrr was never at the campsite alive, do you think his parents took his body there to dispose of it, or do you think he was dead and buried before the parents even set off on the trip?
And what makes you think he was never at the campsite alive? I think he was probably never at the store alive, but was at the campsite.

So Klein confirmed that the last time Deorr was confirmed seen by someone other than the four was at 6:00 pm the night before. This leads me to believe that Deorr was left in the truck at the Stagecoach while they were there and when everyone returned to the campsite that night they realized he was not alive due to being left in the hot car at the Stagecoach. Next morning JM says she needs to go to Leadore for personal items and that's when they dispose of the body. JMO

 

[Tr.]

I believe I heard Klein say there were 2 trips to the store on the Friday my recollection only. I'm questioning the need for the trip or trips to town. There has been conjecture that something was buried somewhere on the mountain - hence the intentions from SB and Klein to search when thaw allows. Is this to search for a body or other items or material? I'm also wondering if trips to town could have allowed something to be deposited in refuse collection bins or dumpsters. And further, where does this refuse end up. Town dump - remains have been found in such places I think. I also knew pretty much nothing about cadaver dogs but this recent article popped up
http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...-and-handlers-behind-the-nsw-police-dog-squad
Obviously, the camping trip was ended by Deorr's disappearance, but otherwise, how long did the campers intend to stay at the campsite? Could be relevant - not sure?

http://www.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992
At the 3 minute mark in this interview Klein discusses the purchases made by VDK on Friday. It sounds to me like he's saying that they visited the store twice that day.
This is a key point that I used in coming up with my search site and incomplete time line theory. I wish I had the exact purchase times to confirm or adjust the theory...but that would probably not be something they could release.
I will say this...without all of the great info from PI's and news reporters questions I wouldn't have much of a theory as to where to look for Deorr. LE just doesn't have or won't come off of enough info to work with imo. I'm glad we have info from so many sources.

 

[Tr.]

So Klein confirmed that the last time Deorr was confirmed seen by someone other than the four was at 6:00 pm the night before. This leads me to believe that Deorr was left in the truck at the Stagecoach while they were there and when everyone returned to the campsite that night they realized he was not alive due to being left in the hot car at the Stagecoach. Next morning JM says she needs to go to Leadore for personal items and that's when they dispose of the body. JMO

The two main reasons that I would consider this theory is that this would be something that they would both feel equally responsible for and therefore work as a team to conceal.
Secondly, they were camping out of the vehicle so a theory that supports something along the lines of an accident involving the truck would certainly fit..imo
And possibly something happening on the return trip to the camp as well.

 

[Cardinal47]

Given the number of mines that seem to be in the area, I'm afraid he may never be found.

The only hope is that DK and Jm didn't know about them. Remember this was Grandpa's camping spot. Now he might know about them but I believe this was the first time DK was up there. So he might not have known the lay of the land. Fingers crossed!