ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

[wondering25]

Unfortunately, there have been hundreds and hundreds of "thorough" searches for missing people that were later found by someone stumbling across them by accident. It's sad, but very true. It doesn't mean LE and/or the searches aren't doing a good enough job, it just means that nobody can ever cover 100 percent of all land and water--even if they think they have.

Also, the body (in this case) could be moving or moved by water, predators, etc...at any given time during or after the searches.

I introduced a new idea.. someone who had prior knowledge and was up there waiting. Look, I could be in 7-11 discussing my camping trip with the clerk and the guy behind me in line could be a pervert and taking mental notes. If my memory serves me correctly, the dad said this was his first time camping there.. who suggested this area? Who did he discuss this with.. or for that matter who did any of the adults discuss this with?

 

[Fitzrobin]

I guess I am thinking of this case as I would a patient in my profession. I create a "working diagnosis" based on data I can gather from both the patient and surroundings. I start to become increasingly focused as I am able to "most likely" rule out some diagnoses. Sure my patient "could have" a million things wrong with him/her. There are only so many symptoms you can present with BUT I become increasingly focused as I am able to uncover data. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, must be a duck. You can spend a lot of time and energy testing and digging but at some point you have to end at what is most likely.
Is it most likely that the child drowned? Sure, but tumbling down a creek or falling into resevoir should allow for recovery of some evidence that Deorr was there. Could he of been abducted? Sure, but is it likely that someone happened to be in the area at that very moment and got away in broad daylight without being seen? Was Deorr taken by an animal? Possible but isn't it likely that there would be a drop of blood or shred of clothing along a trail the animal followed? The lack or presence of evidence has to lead to what is most likely...

 

[gitana1]

No to all of those. Anything is possible.. I do not think he was taken by an animal, drowned or hunkered down and died from the elements. He would have been found if the searching was as thorough as the dad said and the sheriff or LE or whoever said it. Abducted..I dunno. A boogey man hiding in the woods waiting to prey on some random kid if one showed up????? Unlikely, UNLESS someone had prior knowledge this family was going to be there and WAS lying in wait. Ran up, snatched the child and ran down the hill to his/her vehicle..

I've given several examples of extremely detailed searches where a child was missed.

 

[gitana1]

I guess I am thinking of this case as I would a patient in my profession. I create a "working diagnosis" based on data I can gather from both the patient and surroundings. I start to become increasingly focused as I am able to "most likely" rule out some diagnoses. Sure my patient "could have" a million things wrong with him/her. There are only so many symptoms you can present with BUT I become increasingly focused as I am able to uncover data. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, must be a duck. You can spend a lot of time and energy testing and digging but at some point you have to end at what is most likely.
Is it most likely that the child drowned? Sure, but tumbling down a creek or falling into resevoir should allow for recovery of some evidence that Deorr was there. Could he of been abducted? Sure, but is it likely that someone happened to be in the area at that very moment and got away in broad daylight without being seen? Was Deorr taken by an animal? Possible but isn't it likely that there would be a drop of blood or shred of clothing along a trail the animal followed? The lack or presence of evidence has to lead to what is most likely...

You do understand that maybe there is evidence- blood drops, torn clothes, small boots, or a tiny body- that has been missed? As has happened in so many other cases?

I sometimes really think many people do not understand how vast the earth is, how dense and unending the wilderness.

 

[Fitzrobin]

You do understand that maybe there is evidence- blood drops, torn clothes, small boots, or a tiny body- that has been missed? As has happened in so many other cases?

I sometimes really think many people do not understand how vast the earth is, how dense and unending the wilderness.

I do understand the vastness that they are searching and of course there is always a possibility that something has been missed. I am saying that at some point I hope they entertain other theories as finding evidence where they are looking becomes less likely. As it becomes less likely evidence will be uncovered at the scene, do you repeatedly search the same place or begin to think the possibly something else happened? I would assume this is the case here and we are not privy to any of the inner workings of LE. We are all speaking hypothetical as none of us know "for sure" what is happening behind the scenes.

 

[wondering25]

You do understand that maybe there is evidence- blood drops, torn clothes, small boots, or a tiny body- that has been missed? As has happened in so many other cases?

I sometimes really think many people do not understand how vast the earth is, how dense and unending the wilderness.

You do understand that the dogs keep going back to the campsite? That while the earth is vast and things can be hidden forever that there is no evidence of ANYTHING. No animal tracks, blood, torn clothes whatever. And kids are snatched in broad daylight on city streets all the time?? He may never be found whether it was drowning, an animal, or the elements or if someone was lying in wait and abducted him? i can give you examples of people who were found ALIVE after months of searching..let's start with Elizabeth Smart. Who knew they were going to camp there?

 

[flourish]

You do understand that maybe there is evidence- blood drops, torn clothes, small boots, or a tiny body- that has been missed? As has happened in so many other cases?

I sometimes really think many people do not understand how vast the earth is, how dense and unending the wilderness.

Yes it is. Idaho is crazy wilderness. My daddy worked for the forest service in Utah and Idaho.

It's VAST. And quite empty. And a bit scary sometimes! A poster from the UK posted earlier the stats...Idaho has barely over a million people in a bigger amount of land than England. I'm not at all surprised they have had a difficult time finding anything!

Just the other day I read a story on WS about a Winchester rifle sitting in the desert in Nevada for over a hundred years! Just propped up against a tree and unnoticed!

A little child is going to be very difficult to find in the wilderness.

 

[sunflowerchick]

You do understand that the dogs keep going back to the campsite? That while the earth is vast and things can be hidden forever that there is no evidence of ANYTHING. No animal tracks, blood, torn clothes whatever. And kids are snatched in broad daylight on city streets all the time?? He may never be found whether it was drowning, an animal, or the elements or if someone was lying in wait and abducted him? i can give you examples of people who were found ALIVE after months of searching..let's start with Elizabeth Smart. Who knew they were going to camp there?

The dogs keep going back to the campsite because clearly his scent is there, which means he was there as well. With all due respect, this isn't a city street. This is the wilderness. Sadly, I think little Deorr will be found, deceased, by citizens camping in the area. Who knows when. It's far more likely that the searchers missed clues than that anything else happened here. Even Elizabeth Smart was missed in the first few days they were searching. Initially, Smart and her captors were camped in the foothills above her home, searchers were so close she could hear them, yet they still found NO TRACE of her until months later.

 

[gitana1]

I do understand the vastness that they are searching and of course there is always a possibility that something has been missed. I am saying that at some point I hope they entertain other theories as finding evidence where they are looking becomes less likely. As it becomes less likely evidence will be uncovered at the scene, do you repeatedly search the same place or begin to think the possibly something else happened? I would assume this is the case here and we are not privy to any of the inner workings of LE. We are all speaking hypothetical as none of us know "for sure" what is happening behind the scenes.

I am not sure why you assume they didn't immediately investigate every reasonable theory? In missing kid cases of a child this age the parents are immediately and zealously looked at. Every aspect of their lives and anyone else in the vicinity of the dispearance is examined. There is a zero percent chance that only now, LE needs to "entertain other theories". They have entertained them all and investigated all, from day one.

 

[gitana1]

You do understand that the dogs keep going back to the campsite? That while the earth is vast and things can be hidden forever that there is no evidence of ANYTHING. No animal tracks, blood, torn clothes whatever. And kids are snatched in broad daylight on city streets all the time?? He may never be found whether it was drowning, an animal, or the elements or if someone was lying in wait and abducted him? i can give you examples of people who were found ALIVE after months of searching..let's start with Elizabeth Smart. Who knew they were going to camp there?

Just because it hasn't been found doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Fitzrobin]

Did one of the previous posts indicate if a search dog would keep returning to the campground because of inadvertent smells being there? Example, Deorr's blanket is used to give the dogs the scent. The dogs go out searching but end up back at the campsite because a car was parked there that had his car seat in it, a tent that was in a car where he was at one time. I just keep thinking following the scent to the campground does not indicate Deorr's presence but that something was there that had his scent.

 

[blefuscu]

Did one of the previous posts indicate if a search dog would keep returning to the campground because of inadvertent smells being there? Example, Deorr's blanket is used to give the dogs the scent. The dogs go out searching but end up back at the campsite because a car was parked there that had his car seat in it, a tent that was in a car where he was at one time. I just keep thinking following the scent to the campground does not indicate Deorr's presence but that something was there that had his scent.

I think that the dogs keep going back to the camp as they cannot find any leads rather than being led back there. There are no signs of Little DeOrr. I think the parents and others are acting at the request of the local LE. I hope he is found soon. However I think he won't be found alive unfortunately. It's been too long for him to survive alone and no-one seems to have any leads to any abductors

 

[Dee10]

I wanted to revisit the most recent information available to see if it could be determined where the ‘redirection’ of the investigation was now heading?

Quotes from July 20[SUP]th[/SUP] - http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/2...den-yield-no-clues-in-hunt-for-idaho-toddler/
What happened during the 20 to 45 minutes the child was alone is a mystery to authorities, said Bowerman, who noted "all possibilities" are being investigated.

"I don't look at them as suspects at this point in time," the sheriff noted.

Bowerman, however, said he's not convinced of an abduction, noting that no other campers were seen or heard in the area at the time of the disappearance.

"We don't have any evidence that somebody kidnapped this child," he said.

"We've literally torn that country apart and found absolutely not one clue." - Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman
Lemhi County sheriff's officials said via their Facebook page, "After 10 days of searching, diving, and scouring the hillsides, the Sheriff's Office has decided to redirect the investigation."

Quotes from July 21[SUP]st[/SUP] – http://www.localnews8.com/news/new-details-on-search-for-deorr-kunz-jr/34281340
Sheriff Bowerman also confirmed that drones are being brought to the Timber Creek/ Stone Reservoir area but doesn't believe they will be used in the search. Instead the drones will be used to document the area for evidence if a trial in connection to DeOrr's disappearance is ever convened.

The sheriff also stated that at this time he does not consider the parents to be suspects in the child's disappearance. He confirmed they did take a polygraph test but didn't know when or if the results of the test would be released to the public.

Sheriff Bowerman also confirmed that drones are being brought to the Timber Creek/ Stone Reservoir area but doesn't believe they will be used in the search. Instead the drones will be used to document the area for evidence if a trial in connection to DeOrr's disappearance is ever convened.

More Quotes from July 21[SUP]st[/SUP] – http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...riffs-office-calling-in-air-support/30466883/
Despite intense efforts by searchers with tracking dogs on the ground and divers in the water, investigators have found no trace of the toddler, who disappeared during a family camping trip on July 10.

After more than a week of searching Stone Reservoir, Penner said he feels confident that they will not find the boy there, but says they still plan to keep checking it daily.

Detectives have re-interviewed everyone who was in the Stone Reservoir and Timber Creek areas the day DeOrr went missing. In addition to Twin Falls County, the Bonneville County Sheriff's Office has also been asked to help with the investigation.

July 24[SUP]th[/SUP] - http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...earch-hits-two-weeks-still-no-trace/30624055/
Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman says the department has not ruled out foul play.

 

[Cardinal47]

I introduced a new idea.. someone who had prior knowledge and was up there waiting. Look, I could be in 7-11 discussing my camping trip with the clerk and the guy behind me in line could be a pervert and taking mental notes. If my memory serves me correctly, the dad said this was his first time camping there.. who suggested this area? Who did he discuss this with.. or for that matter who did any of the adults discuss this with?

One of the grandmothers gave an interview and said this was Ggp favorite camping spot.

 

[wondering25]

http://q13fox.com/2015/07/13/search...2-called-off-parents-believe-he-was-abducted/

So, the search has been called off.. and the LE is satisfied he isn't there and are treating this as an abduction? The parents WANT to believe it is an abduction or do they suspect he was abducted due to other things they may know? Who knew they were going to be there camping? That is the question i would want answered.

 

[wondering25]

I wanted to revisit the most recent information available to see if it could be determined where the ‘redirection’ of the investigation was now heading?

Quotes from July 20[SUP]th[/SUP] - http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/2...den-yield-no-clues-in-hunt-for-idaho-toddler/
What happened during the 20 to 45 minutes the child was alone is a mystery to authorities, said Bowerman, who noted "all possibilities" are being investigated.

"I don't look at them as suspects at this point in time," the sheriff noted.

Bowerman, however, said he's not convinced of an abduction, noting that no other campers were seen or heard in the area at the time of the disappearance.

"We don't have any evidence that somebody kidnapped this child," he said.

"We've literally torn that country apart and found absolutely not one clue." - Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman
Lemhi County sheriff's officials said via their Facebook page, "After 10 days of searching, diving, and scouring the hillsides, the Sheriff's Office has decided to redirect the investigation."

Quotes from July 21[SUP]st[/SUP] – http://www.localnews8.com/news/new-details-on-search-for-deorr-kunz-jr/34281340
Sheriff Bowerman also confirmed that drones are being brought to the Timber Creek/ Stone Reservoir area but doesn't believe they will be used in the search. Instead the drones will be used to document the area for evidence if a trial in connection to DeOrr's disappearance is ever convened.

The sheriff also stated that at this time he does not consider the parents to be suspects in the child's disappearance. He confirmed they did take a polygraph test but didn't know when or if the results of the test would be released to the public.

Sheriff Bowerman also confirmed that drones are being brought to the Timber Creek/ Stone Reservoir area but doesn't believe they will be used in the search. Instead the drones will be used to document the area for evidence if a trial in connection to DeOrr's disappearance is ever convened.

More Quotes from July 21[SUP]st[/SUP] – http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...riffs-office-calling-in-air-support/30466883/
Despite intense efforts by searchers with tracking dogs on the ground and divers in the water, investigators have found no trace of the toddler, who disappeared during a family camping trip on July 10.

After more than a week of searching Stone Reservoir, Penner said he feels confident that they will not find the boy there, but says they still plan to keep checking it daily.

Detectives have re-interviewed everyone who was in the Stone Reservoir and Timber Creek areas the day DeOrr went missing. In addition to Twin Falls County, the Bonneville County Sheriff's Office has also been asked to help with the investigation.

July 24[SUP]th[/SUP] - http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...earch-hits-two-weeks-still-no-trace/30624055/
Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman says the department has not ruled out foul play.

So people WERE in the area. maybe not heard or seen but someone was "reinterviewed"!

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Did one of the previous posts indicate if a search dog would keep returning to the campground because of inadvertent smells being there? Example, Deorr's blanket is used to give the dogs the scent. The dogs go out searching but end up back at the campsite because a car was parked there that had his car seat in it, a tent that was in a car where he was at one time. I just keep thinking following the scent to the campground does not indicate Deorr's presence but that something was there that had his scent.

Possible, but I think it would be unusual for dogs to double back due to the original scent such as on the blanket. From what I understand the way dogs normally work is they get the scent from an object then find it on the ground due to skin cells sloughing off and oils touching the grasses etc. Some dogs are trained to only alert to scents in the air and others on the ground.

 

[Mountain]

I introduced a new idea.. someone who had prior knowledge and was up there waiting. Look, I could be in 7-11 discussing my camping trip with the clerk and the guy behind me in line could be a pervert and taking mental notes. If my memory serves me correctly, the dad said this was his first time camping there.. who suggested this area? Who did he discuss this with.. or for that matter who did any of the adults discuss this with?

Excellent idea. Now I wonder if LE thought of this?

 

[Niner]

Thanks gitana! :blushing: As I started reading about Deorr or is it DeOrr ?? - I saw people talking about a timeline and as I kept reading I didn't see one, so I started to keep one handy, just in case no one else was putting it together!

And Dee10 - I added the quotes to the timeline, since they had dates on them. I won't re-post the timeline yet, maybe until we have more accurate "times" of how things played out, i.e. "when" they left home to go camping, etc.

If anyone sees any more accurate times - please post!! :tyou: in advance!

 

[SeriouslySearching]

You do understand that the dogs keep going back to the campsite? That while the earth is vast and things can be hidden forever that there is no evidence of ANYTHING. No animal tracks, blood, torn clothes whatever. And kids are snatched in broad daylight on city streets all the time?? He may never be found whether it was drowning, an animal, or the elements or if someone was lying in wait and abducted him? i can give you examples of people who were found ALIVE after months of searching..let's start with Elizabeth Smart. Who knew they were going to camp there?

I don't believe the abduction theory applies in this case. There has not been any indication LE is looking in that direction either. They are taking a rather basic approach with stating there has been absolutely no sign of him and are not even bothering to use the drones in a search/recovery effort. This tells me they are not looking at abduction, but other forms of foul play.

Could someone please direct me to where it states the dogs keep going back to the campsite? I haven't read that information yet. Thanks.