ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #70

[Ruminations]

I guess my question is as long as his testimony fits exactly what he's previously testified to, and he watched only his WIFE, is the issue really that big?

Agree. I think it is extremely unlikely that this could be shown to have affected the outcome for appeal.

What an idiot, though. How was he "fluent" in media sources for audio to say it was probably one of two?

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

Seems like Boyce is giving Archibald reasons for an appeal.

We don't have any reason to think that, IMO.

I agree that it is naive to think the LDS church is uninterested in its image. I think even if it was not about image- and I don't know- the LDS church was negligent in not helping in the search for Tylee and JJ. And rude to have NOTHING to say to the grieving.

But I do not think Boyce or the prosecution is "throwing" the trial. For one thing, the quietest way to do that would be to plea bargain. Why even go to trial?

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

I agree that Lori is spoiled, impulsive, and, prone to fits of temper, but I also think that Chad checking for wind direction on Sept. 8, 2019, prior to Tylee being killed that same night or early the next morning [Sept. 8-9], negates Lori succumbing to a spur-of-the-moment rage. Also, the texts between Lori and Alex about "eggs" and a "terrestrial temple" on the night/morning JJ probably was killed, to me, signal a pre-planned act. I'm confused about how Chad could get out of the bed he was in with Tammy to either give David Warwick a blessing OR how Chad could leave his marital bed to meet Alex and Lori at their imaginary "temple". If my husband got out of our bed after midnight to go and do whatever, I'd ask questions.

Just my thoughts.

Well, Alex's blessing when dying was from Hawaii to Arizona. Maybe they meant by phone or face time. That would be if Mel and David believed Chad to be home.

That said, all of this nightmare, phoning, texting, talking all day on the 23rd... it doesn't add up. Unanswered communications don't add up.

One off the wall theory could be that the guests were in charge of creating an "emergency" so Chad could explain leaving. No evidence of that, but it makes it all gel. I'm sure other explanations could make it gel, too.

MOO

 

[Onsdag]

your post reminded me of something I was thinking about, so apologies for jumping off your post. Is it likely that the insurance company would want the payout back if Chad is found guilty of murder or conspiracy to murder? Or would they say that the proper beneficiaries would be her children? What happens in these sorts of cases?

IANAL, nor am I in the insurance industry, so someone with more knowledge please correct me. From my limited understanding, if they find the insurance claim fraudulent, after having already paid out, then they would go after the individual to recover the money if at all possible. As far as I know the children would receive no benefits (money obtained illegally), nor would they be on the hook (at least not directly) to repay the insurance company.

But again, my knowledge is limited, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Jolynna]

This article by Nate Eaton is sad.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1649422377015558150

 

[fred&edna]

I wonder if LVD's legal team thinks the podcast topic of sanctification (recorded in LVD's townhouse in Rexburg) is of some importance to her defense?

 

[Ruminations]

And, it was just MG who wanted Lori and Chad contacted about the nightmare. Hmmm.

Nothing is David's idea. Going to a certain sales pitch on Sunday against his judgement. Others call him a visionary, not he, himself. Mel wanted a blessing, not David. And other people were involved in apostasy and unauthorized prophets. Chad wanted to write a book with David, not the other way around.

I think it's clear that David pissed Lori and Chad off. I believe he may have been an alternate spiritual crutch, so to speak, that allowed Mel to take a step away from Lori and Chad.

But I think he is not telling all. He's a liar. I doubt he really challenged Chad except to separate himself from crimes. To stay out of trouble, judging from everything being someone else's fault. Not because it was right.

MOO

 

[fred&edna]

dbm

 

[Cedars]

I'm still not sure that either CD or LVD saw these as crimes or ever will.

The depersonalization that begins with the "light/dark scale" moves quickly into the full-on zombification / dehumanization that allows for inhuman bodies to be freed of their demon hosts.

It's a simple, stupid cruel program designed to provide easy, blanket justifications for a host of crimes ranging all the way to genocide and it can be bolted onto any number of existing belief systems.

I completely agree with this. I think they convinced themselves they were justified to do what they did, just like any group of people can justify acts of war, or atrocities, or individuals justify murder. It's really just a mental trick, a mind game anyone can play if circumstances arise to motivate it, that turns another person into an expendable enemy.

However, I don't believe they should just be dismissed and forgotten as some type of extraordinary, once in a million years, 'evil' people. That's just playing the same mind game on them, as they played on people who created problems for them.

IMO, it all begins with the attitude that 'I'm special and superior, and therefore above all other authority' (or, he's special and superior and therefore above all other authority'), and it's just a matter of rolling downhill from there.

JMO

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Nothing is David's idea. Going to a certain sales pitch on Sunday against his judgement. Others call him a visionary, not he, himself. Mel wanted a blessing, not David. And other people were involved in apostasy and unauthorized prophets. Chad wanted to write a book with David, not the other way around.

I think it's clear that David pissed Lori and Chad off. I believe he may have been an alternate spiritual crutch, so to speak, that allowed Mel to take a step away from Lori and Chad.

But I think he is not telling all. He's a liar. I doubt he really challenged Chad except to separate himself from crimes. To stay out of trouble, judging from everything being someone else's fault. Not because it was right.

MOO

I think we all try to create the story of what feel the real dynamics were.

Early on MG was an eager participant to the Chad/Lori Visions. Melanie, separated from her husband (not sure of divorce status in those days of 2018-19), and she meets another visionary-type guy. How cozy is that! My guess is that she was trying to merge the two visionaries into one little lovefest.

And nobody was buying it.

But as more and more news came out, Melanie HAD to rely on David, as a crutch as well as a con-conspirator of THEIR story.

I venture to guess that the marriage of Melanie and David is one more of protection against the crimes and all the press around the crimes and the players, which included both of them of course.

Reading between the lines during court yesterday, it does not sound like this is a solid or loving marriage at this point.

moo moo, oc.

 

[Ruminations]

I nearly died of double pulmonary embolism that I thought was a heart attack. For weeks leading upto my 911 call, I had the same symptoms Alex supposedly had, and an equally sedentary lifestyle. Much as it would be easy to believe he was offed when TD was exhumed because he knew too much, I believe he really did die as the result of a PE. If what we believe we know about him is true, he deserved worse.

The trip to Mexico for cheaper drugs — could that have been why there was no stateside evidence of prescriptions being filled for JJ’s meds? I’m surprised the defense hasn’t tried to suggest that. Since they haven’t one wonders what it was really all about.

Glad you survived!

I don't know the laws in Mexico, except I know they sell Z-packs over the counter. It does seem like Alex could have procured something in Mexico that would need a script in the USA but not there- or for which getting a script is easier.

He could either shop OTC, or visit doctors and fill prescriptions. If he did that then, he could have done it earlier. The victims were dead by then. But maybe they stockpiled and poisoned.

I just don't buy that Alex was poisoned into a PE, because while many things can contribute, none are guaranteed. AFAIK. Do any medical people think a PE can be induced to work reliably? And if yes, why bring in paramedics when he could have been saved?

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

I agree that Lori is spoiled, impulsive, and, prone to fits of temper, but I also think that Chad checking for wind direction on Sept. 8, 2019, prior to Tylee being killed that same night or early the next morning [Sept. 8-9], negates Lori succumbing to a spur-of-the-moment rage. Also, the texts between Lori and Alex about "eggs" and a "terrestrial temple" on the night/morning JJ probably was killed, to me, signal a pre-planned act. I'm confused about how Chad could get out of the bed he was in with Tammy to either give David Warwick a blessing OR how Chad could leave his marital bed to meet Alex and Lori at their imaginary "temple". If my husband got out of our bed after midnight to go and do whatever, I'd ask questions.

Just my thoughts.

interesting point - yes it is weird that MGibb expected Chad to be able to drive over in the middle of the night.

also agree that, to me, the pair seem to be more devious & calculated than spur of the moment killers.
It struck me during Adam Cox interview with LE, that his brother Alex took an entire week off work for the Charles Vallow murder. ( This was Adam's view. He said Alex would never normally book a whole week off work & not use it to go on holiday. eg the sex tourism type trips.)

Also, jumping off your post & other members' recent posts about the night JJ may have died & what Lori is capable of.....
If JJ is in Lori's room & bed when Mel G is trying the locked door, David Warwick is screaming & MG is texting Lori for help with David Warwick, wouldn't JJ have woken-up? Had JJ been sleep medicated by then, or worse?

( LE think JJ murder occurred somewhere between Sun night & Mon)

 

[fred&edna]

I completely agree with this. I think they convinced themselves they were justified to do what they did, just like any group of people can justify acts of war, or atrocities, or individuals justify murder. It's really just a mental trick, a mind game anyone can play if circumstances arise to motivate it, that turns another person into an expendable enemy.

However, I don't believe they should just be dismissed and forgotten as some type of extraordinary, once in a million years, 'evil' people. That's just playing the same mind game on them, as they played on people who created problems for them.

IMO, it all begins with the attitude that 'I'm special and superior, and therefore above all other authority' (or, he's special and superior and therefore above all other authority'), and it's just a matter of rolling downhill from there.

JMO

They (C & LVD) even play mind games with themselves... They don't view these murders as crimes because their egos won't allow it... they hold onto "being chosen by God" as it's all they have.

 

[Ruminations]

I can see why none of these fruitloops had a proper job, they were far too busy with their meetings, conferences, castings, blessings, etc etc. So how could they get hold of the money that they felt they deserved? Oh yes, how about some involuntary donations?

Surprisingly, I've learned that, until moving to Rexburg, Alex appears to have steadily supported himself. Wasn't that what his bank account showed?

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

There is just too much co-incidence here for Alex to have died of natural causes.
Not under the circumstances.

It is quite fitting though that Chad and Lori are going to get away with this one.
Alex doesn't deserve a state's investment in bringing him justice.

As long as Chad and Lori spend the rest of their lives in prison I am ok with this situation.

I think the state has to bring more than the timing to get probable cause and a search warrant.

There could be more evidence. But I don't know of any.

MOO

 

[indicolite22]

What if Chad and Alex are the only conspirators and they told Lori the kids were taken to a safe place to await whatever event they were expecting? That would explain why she did not report AND why she lied after the fact. No, I don't really believe that is what happened. But I would really like to see evidence of her involvement in the PLANNING of the kids' murders. As I watch (read Nate's summaries) I am hearing lots of damning evidence against Chad and Alex but very little that directly implicates Lori in any plan. Sure, she was part of the whacko cult. But so were MP, MG, DW, ZP, and a few others and none of them are charged in any conspiracy.

Most of these people are/were true believers. I think it is very plausible that Lori would have believed Chad if he said he and Alex had taken Tylee to a safe place place and then took JJ to the same place later.

I'm going to have to listen to the defense opening statement to see if they outline their strategy.

Lori would not have believed Chad and Alex, because she knew the children were never in danger. It was Lori who claimed that Kay Woodcock was trying to take away JJ to excuse his absence, but that didn't involve Tylee. She lied to police that Tylee was at BYU. Why were the children taken two weeks apart without any belongings? Who was supporting them financially? Lori kept all their money for herself. How come she had no contact with them? Chad and Alex theory makes zero sense.

 

[Trebor5591]

JJ was not seen the next morning - Lori came up with the excuse that Alex had taken him because JJ was climbing up the kitchen cabinets, on the fridge and knocking the picture of Jesus off the wall.

JJ slept with Lori the night of the nightmare, and Lori's bedroom door was shut and she did not respond to MG's request for a blessing for David.

Perhaps Lori was too busy killing JJ, to answer requests for blessings, IMO

Still I find it hard to believe they would pick an evening when they had guests to murder JJ. No wonder once of their guests had nightmares! JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

Surprisingly, I've learned that, until moving to Rexburg, Alex appears to have steadily supported himself. Wasn't that what his bank account showed?

MOO

yes that's what we heard this week
one of the commentators also said he had a 6 figure salary from that job asked why he'd give that job up for the Daybell mission. ( I think Alex was haulage driver but not 100% sure)

Also considering that they'd only 'gathered' a few people we know of, why did Alex need to buy so many guns? What were they planning?

 

[scapa]

Glad you survived!

I don't know the laws in Mexico, except I know they sell Z-packs over the counter. It does seem like Alex could have procured something in Mexico that would need a script in the USA but not there- or for which getting a script is easier.

He could either shop OTC, or visit doctors and fill prescriptions. If he did that then, he could have done it earlier. The victims were dead by then. But maybe they stockpiled and poisoned.

I just don't buy that Alex was poisoned into a PE, because while many things can contribute, none are guaranteed. AFAIK. Do any medical people think a PE can be induced to work reliably? And if yes, why bring in paramedics when he could have been saved?

MOO

Reliably? I would say no. Certainly not by a layperson in a home.

IIRC you'd need a lot of air volume injected quickly, something on the order of 400/500 ml or more at a high rate for assured fatality. Can't recall a formula for ml/kg/t offhand but I'd not be putting money on AC, LVD or or anyone else in their circle to pull it off convincingly -- although ZP's alleged mastery of atmospheric forces might make her more of a dab hand at such things, I suppose.

My longrange clinical take -- without any access to the particulars -- would be that AC's weird death is likely another weird coincidence in this weirdest of cases.

 

[indicolite22]

interesting point - yes it is weird that MGibb expected Chad to be able to drive over in the middle of the night.

also agree that, to me, the pair seem to be more devious & calculated than spur of the moment killers.
It struck me during Adam Cox interview with LE, that his brother Alex took an entire week off work for the Charles Vallow murder. ( This was Adam's view. He said Alex would never normally book a whole week off work & not use it to go on holiday. eg the sex tourism type trips.)

Also, jumping off your post & other members' recent posts about the night JJ may have died & what Lori is capable of.....
If JJ is in Lori's room & bed when Mel G is trying the locked door, David Warwick is screaming & MG is texting Lori for help with David Warwick, wouldn't JJ have woken-up? Had JJ been sleep medicated by then, or worse?

( LE think JJ murder occurred somewhere between Sun night & Mon)

Chad could have given DW a blessing over the phone.