ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

[Ruminations]

Why did their daughter support Chad's claims about Tammy's poor health when she was attending fitness classes together with Tammy?

Very enmeshed family/cult family.

I think it comes to Emma as easily as breathing to detect what Dad wants and needs and to supply it. Dad needs me to refuse an autopsy? On it! Dad wants me to isolate Mom? On it! Dad wants me to say she's been sick? On it!

MOO

 

[indicolite22]

Not sure, unless it was her other daughter, Leah.

I think Leah doesn't live in the area.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm looking forward to hearing the 911 calls

 

[formerlyme]

So much information this week. I really think CD will be an easy case to prove , really hoping for a "smoking gun" for LVD to be convicted. I remember thinking this was all taking too long, but apparently a very good investigation was done (after the fact). Wondering were K9's / cadaver dogs ever taken to the storage unit?

 

[KonaHonu]

Just in response to the bolded section. Does this help?
David Aronberg ( a state attorney) in one minute outlines basics of proof required in a conspiracy case. At 16.35 mins.
Let me know what you think.

Law professor says clearly not enough evidence to support a conspiracy conviction at this point. Prosecutor says there is. I agree with the professor.

She is charged with conspiracy to murder 3 people and actually murdering three people as well as grand theft. I think grand theft has been proven so she will be convicted of that. I don't think we have seen any evidence that she actually committed the murders. We have seen plenty of evidence that Alex actually did the killing.

Conspiracy requires a meeting of the minds, an agreement to commit the murders, and an overt act by one of the conspirators. We have an overt act. But an agreement would have to occur BEFORE the crime. I'm not sure if that is an actual requirement in the law but it is irrational to say that the agreement could be made after the crime. It just does not make sense.

Everyone keeps pointing to things that happened after the murders as evidence of an agreement. She danced at her wedding. She lied to police in November. Yada, yada, yada. Yes, those things make her look like an awful person. And I think she is an awful person. Show me something where Chad says "Let's get rid of Tammy and your kids" and Lori says "that would be awesome."

The prosecution's case against Lori seems to be based on showing character assassination (talk about taking the easy route) and showing gory pictures of the victims. I'm sure the pictures are horrendous. But that is not evidence of a conspiracy involving Lori.

I can easily see a situation where Alex acted alone or conspired with Chad to help Lori without her knowledge. If she truly believed the world would be ending, and I think she did, they could easily have convinced her the kids were somewhere safe while they prepared to start gathering people.

One thing from today's testimony that will be interesting is that Garth Daybell saw Tammy vomiting just as Chaad said she was. If he testifies to that it will really undermine most of the prosecution's case which seems to be focused on her being completely healthy. But I think there is plenty to convict Chad.

 

[KonaHonu]

Alex was in love with his sister and I think she used him and brainwashed him...he also had an evil mean streak and Lori exploited it..she probably held their inapropriate relationship over his head.

so twisted. wow.

Wow, you could be onto something. What if Alex was in love with her in the romantic sense. First he gets rid of Charles then tries to get rid of her new love interest by pinning murders on him.

It's all just so weird and twisted.

 

[887sMtreme]

I’m still waiting for evidence to support the charges against Lori.

 

[Nikynoo]

even though Alex is waiting in that parking lot that night, does anybody feel it's more likely that he did this, rather than Chad?
( My instinct says Chad did it but with Alex there for back-up at Lori's insistence in case Chad faltered and thought he couldn't do it at the last moment. Lori had been very angry about Alex mis-firing ten days previously. Who knows?)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650890076052926468

note that Dye gives ToDeath as follows 12.30 - 2am. ( No idea how Brenda Dye Coroner is qualified to give a ToD, like a pathologist, but anyway...)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1652002880499650560

BUT, IF it is true that both Garth and Chad witnessed Tammy being sick at midnight, it couldn’t have been Alex?

 

[Nikynoo]

Possibly true she threw up... from too many opiates.

JMO based on information so far. I'm looking forward to the autopsy report to see if she has injuries from fighting a pillow or a plastic bag.

The only way to prevent injuring her would be to medicate her beyond fighting effectively.

-----------------

I find it interesting that first Chad denied traditional medicine. Then she suddenly had had opiates she took for a sprained wrist. That's more like post-op medication.

It has been confirmed she was prescribed that opiate. I wonder how recently it was filled. More than that, I wonder why Chad didn't mention it earlier. It's hardly homeopathic. If she were anti medicine she'd use ice or splints as much as possible and stretch the medicine.

MOO

Plus, surely if Tammy had not seen a doctor for a while, the doctor would have quickly taken her blood pressure for that visit for the sprained wrist. And who prescribes opiates for sprains? Bizarro.

 

[Nikynoo]

Gahhh... There just aren't enough gifs, emojis, nor words for summa-this-stuuuuufff.

(jmo)

I know, right? If we wrote this story, people would say it too far fetched!

 

[fred&edna]

The "conspiracy" between AC, LVD and CD is certainly what lead to the murders. I doubt the deaths would have occurred (especially as readily as they did) if there was not a clear understanding between these three. I think the jurors have seen evidence of this understanding... even if it's not a signed document. Yes, circumstantial evidence is much more difficult to prove but, I think the prosecution has provided evidence of such an agreement. (Yes, the agreement is based on the wacko beliefs spouted by the members... but they clearly understood and believed). ETA: Alex would not have been the "hitman" if not prompted by these beliefs. In fact, none of them would have acted "individually" to achieve these deaths, but they obviously did it as an understood team.)

This is, of course, my (non-lawyer) opinion.

 

[SteveS]

Law professor says clearly not enough evidence to support a conspiracy conviction at this point. Prosecutor says there is. I agree with the professor.

She is charged with conspiracy to murder 3 people and actually murdering three people as well as grand theft. I think grand theft has been proven so she will be convicted of that. I don't think we have seen any evidence that she actually committed the murders. We have seen plenty of evidence that Alex actually did the killing.

Conspiracy requires a meeting of the minds, an agreement to commit the murders, and an overt act by one of the conspirators. We have an overt act. But an agreement would have to occur BEFORE the crime. I'm not sure if that is an actual requirement in the law but it is irrational to say that the agreement could be made after the crime. It just does not make sense.

Everyone keeps pointing to things that happened after the murders as evidence of an agreement. She danced at her wedding. She lied to police in November. Yada, yada, yada. Yes, those things make her look like an awful person. And I think she is an awful person. Show me something where Chad says "Let's get rid of Tammy and your kids" and Lori says "that would be awesome."

The prosecution's case against Lori seems to be based on showing character assassination (talk about taking the easy route) and showing gory pictures of the victims. I'm sure the pictures are horrendous. But that is not evidence of a conspiracy involving Lori.

I can easily see a situation where Alex acted alone or conspired with Chad to help Lori without her knowledge. If she truly believed the world would be ending, and I think she did, they could easily have convinced her the kids were somewhere safe while they prepared to start gathering people.

One thing from today's testimony that will be interesting is that Garth Daybell saw Tammy vomiting just as Chaad said she was. If he testifies to that it will really undermine most of the prosecution's case which seems to be focused on her being completely healthy. But I think there is plenty to convict Chad.

I am with you on the idea that Lori's choices long after the deaths are NOT sufficient to prove that she had been aware and agreeable and participated in the murders being done.

And that really seems to be what's been pointed to when saying she too (not Alex, or Chad, or both) was actively involved in a murder conspiracy and its execution. The experts focused on that -- her actions afterward -- and some saw that as okay to use as proof, and some did not.

But when the murders happened? We are seeing lots of testimony about what Alex or Chad did, not Lori. We see horrendous deeds, and we're seeing Alex's fingerprints on them (literally) and perhaps Chad too (re Tammy).

More importantly, in the jury deliberation, there's no such thing for a juror as "you MUST place importance on the prosecution's story and come to the conclusions from it that the prosecution wants you to see." If you don't see LORI plotting or killing when things took place, and think your doubts are reasonable, they are.

We're hearing a lot of info. But no one is making any effort to tie it to Lori being involved, when it comes to the kids and Tammy. (And what happened to CV is not this case.)

 

[fred&edna]

I am with you on the idea that Lori's choices long after the deaths are NOT sufficient to prove that she had been aware and agreeable and participated in the murders being done.

And that really seems to be what's been pointed to when saying she too (not Alex, or Chad, or both) was actively involved in a murder conspiracy and its execution. The experts focused on that -- her actions afterward -- and some saw that as okay to use as proof, and some did not.

But when the murders happened? We are seeing lots of testimony about what Alex or Chad did, not Lori. We see horrendous deeds, and we're seeing Alex's fingerprints on them (literally) and perhaps Chad too (re Tammy).

More importantly, in the jury deliberation, there's no such thing for a juror as "you MUST place importance on the prosecution's story and come to the conclusions from it that the prosecution wants you to see." If you don't see LORI plotting or killing when things took place, and think your doubts are reasonable, they are.

We're hearing a lot of info. But no one is making any effort to tie it to Lori being involved, when it comes to the kids and Tammy. (And what happened to CV is not this case.)

Lori is the LINK between CD and AC... without her they wouldn't know each other and would not be following these insane beliefs. Thus, a conspiracy of three which was created, led, understood and enacted by these three in their beliefs. ETA: CD and LVD gave AC his "job" as protector/hitman within these beliefs.

 

[cottonweaver]

BUT, IF it is true that both Garth and Chad witnessed Tammy being sick at midnight, it couldn’t have been Alex?

until the audio is uploaded, am not sure we can be clear on what Nate Eaton was saying here:
'Chad says Tammy had a coughing fit the night before and threw up in the toilet. He said both he and Garth saw Tammy throw up in the toilet'
Is this referring to the night previous to her murder? IDK

If it's about the murder night, I'd want to hear Garth asked about that on the stand. ( Quite a few witnesses today said that Chad was often quiet when Chad was giving his account & we can see that Chad likes to speak for him)

PS I've never seen the latest 48hrs where all the Daybell kids speak for the first time, only little clips of that show

 

[Gut_feeling]

BUT, IF it is true that both Garth and Chad witnessed Tammy being sick at midnight, it couldn’t have been Alex?

If Garth TRULY witnessed the vomiting, not just being told by Chad that she did, then I think that SOMEHOW Chad either poisoned her and she died of that poisoning, or he drugged her and then smothered her. If she wasn't big on doctors and traditional meds, maybe the tramadol was too much for her and she really vomited because her stomach couldn't handle it. I understand the autopsy didn't show any poison, but the ME couldn't possibly test for everything, and given the facts that we already know, the earlier attempt on her life, the way Chad openly talked about his wife dying soon, telling people she had been "so unwell", despite her sister saying she was doing great (aside from the wrist thing) the way he seemed to research EVERYTHING, his desire for CONTROL, if there was a way to poison or drug someone and have it not show up on an autopsy, Chad would have found out about it. Even though he pushed for no autopsy and a quick funeral, there was always the chance that one MIGHT be done, and I think he would have planned for that. All the time he was "writing" at the BYU library, he could have been researching on library computers every devious, evil aspect of his plan, thinking he was SO smart by not using his own phone or computer.

<modsnip - other cases are off topic to this one> one of the witnesses today described vitamins/supplements next to Tammy's side of the bed. I could TOTALLY see Chad replacing something harmless with something to make it look like Tammy was getting sicker and sicker, maybe with the plan that it would ultimately kill her, or just setting the stage for the night he finally killed her. (With Lori constantly asking when he thought she was going to die, he probably felt pressure to just hurry up and get it done.)
The reason why his/their plans never worked out perfectly is because Lori and Chad are simply not very smart.

 

[cottonweaver]

Lori is the LINK between CD and AC... without her they wouldn't know each other and would not be following these insane beliefs. Thus, a conspiracy of three which was created, led, understood and enacted by these three in their beliefs. ETA: CD and LVD gave AC his "job" as protector/hitman within these beliefs.

Agree. It's in the language of the charges

this is not verbatim but it's what I remember:
as part of a common scheme or plan...
and did aid & abet or not being present advised and encouraged its commission or by command compelled another to commit the crime .... etc etc

There's a member who does that really useful summary of every witness per day ( wink??) Almost every witness delivers something that satisfies the criteria above ( I just don't have the energy or will to list them all right now)

 

[Gut_feeling]

Lori is the LINK between CD and AC... without her they wouldn't know each other and would not be following these insane beliefs. Thus, a conspiracy of three which was created, led, understood and enacted by these three in their beliefs. ETA: CD and LVD gave AC his "job" as protector/hitman within these beliefs.

Exactly. Lori called him her protector to LE in Rexburg. She knew she could manipulate Alex. Alex's loyalty was to Lori. He wouldn't agree to be a "warrior" for some random dude named Chad. Chad and Lori gave the orders together, and Alex did what he was told.

 

[cottonweaver]

Susan Bin, the woman who did the great sketches has done a quick interview

 

[LinasK]

If Garth TRULY witnessed the vomiting, not just being told by Chad that she did, then I think that SOMEHOW Chad either poisoned her and she died of that poisoning, or he drugged her and then smothered her. If she wasn't big on doctors and traditional meds, maybe the tramadol was too much for her and she really vomited because her stomach couldn't handle it. I understand the autopsy didn't show any poison, but the ME couldn't possibly test for everything, and given the facts that we already know, the earlier attempt on her life, the way Chad openly talked about his wife dying soon, telling people she had been "so unwell", despite her sister saying she was doing great (aside from the wrist thing) the way he seemed to research EVERYTHING, his desire for CONTROL, if there was a way to poison or drug someone and have it not show up on an autopsy, Chad would have found out about it. Even though he pushed for no autopsy and a quick funeral, there was always the chance that one MIGHT be done, and I think he would have planned for that. All the time he was "writing" at the BYU library, he could have been researching on library computers every devious, evil aspect of his plan, thinking he was SO smart by not using his own phone or computer.

I JUST remembered a case I heard about where a spouse, I think it was a husband, who suggested his wife start taking a certain vitamin/supplement, he told her he saw something on the news or read an article about it, and he REPLACED the vitamins in the bottle with some kind of drug or poison and after she took it she would get so dizzy, especially while driving. Now I can't remember exactly how it played out but I will look it up right now. But my point is, one of the witnesses today described vitamins/supplements next to Tammy's side of the bed. I could TOTALLY see Chad replacing something harmless with something to make it look like Tammy was getting sicker and sicker, maybe with the plan that it would ultimately kill her, or just setting the stage for the night he finally killed her. (With Lori constantly asking when he thought she was going to die, he probably felt pressure to just hurry up and get it done.)
The reason why his/their plans never worked out perfectly is because Lori and Chad are simply not very smart.

Just wanted to add that it's totally possible to OD on Tramadol. I accidentally did it to myself. I was prescribed it when I jammed my toe. One pill did nothing for the pain, so I decided to up it to 2 pills. What I failed to realize is that this drug must be given 6 hours apart. I took the extra 2 pills at 4 hours apart, so I had 3 pills in my system at the same time. I got extremely tired after 30 minutes. We had gone to a Chinese restaurant for Christmas Eve. I was begging my husband and daughter to go home. I threw up on the ride home and continued to do so for quite awhile. That's how memorable it was.

 

[Gut_feeling]

Just wanted to add that it's totally possible to OD on Tramadol. I accidentally did it to myself. I was prescribed it when I jammed my toe. One pill did nothing for the pain, so I decided to up it to 2 pills. What I failed to realize is that this drug must be given 6 hours apart. I took the extra 2 pills at 4 hours apart, so I had 3 pills in my system at the same time. I got extremely tired after 30 minutes. We had gone to a Chinese restaurant for Christmas Eve. I was begging my husband and daughter to go home. I threw up on the ride home and continued to do so for quite awhile. That's how memorable it was.

That's awful, I'm sorry you had to experience that!! Especially on Christmas Eve!!! You must have been completely wiped out the next day