Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #35

[wenwe4]

Something wonky with double posting and then I lost my original one. I was comparing & contrasting another Amber alert case ongoing in Idaho currently that includes a Mom, a 6 y/o and a 17 y/o. The original car they were reportedly fleeing in has been found and now a different make & model is being sought. Amber alerts require car descriptions.
In the Vallow case, we didn't have a car description, we can't even narrow down who the perpetrator was because all of the are so suspect. I can't imagine how these children felt living in this environment. They also had to feel everyone was suspect - constant talk of end of world, zombies, dark beings, people needing to die (and actually do die), all part of the plan, do what Mom says because your life and your very salvation depends upon it!

 

[wenwe4]

dbm

 

[wenwe4]

And don’t forget any monies paid them for the interview!

I wonder if they shared it with Lori?

My bet is every penny is being spent on commissary and phone calls from jail (not to mention the legal fees). Of course there is always the multiple rental agreements Lori signed for 6 - 12 months (with no visible means employment).

 

[wenwe4]

Playing devil's advocate - what if this is done via a passive defense?

She pleads the 5th. Her lawyer asks every state witness if they have any proof the children are alive. He closes by arguing there is no evidence that the children are alive, so prima facie, the jury cannot find her guilty of the charges of desertion. He might specifically deny that she has said anything about whether the children are alive, that he hasn't asked her, but purely on a legal reading of the law, they have to be sure the children are alive to find her guilty.

I look at it through the lens that we do have "no body" murder trials, where circumstantial evidence leads to a very strong presumption that death has occured. It is putting the state in somewhat of a precarious position if they get a guilty verdict on desertion by arguing that she has neglected her duty of care towards them, but then decide to prosecute her for murder or involvement in their murder. It could aid the defense, if they say the government can't have it both ways.

Of course there is the problem that she pretended they were elsewhere when people asked where Tylee was and the police came looking for JJ. Knowing her she will invent wild claims involving threats. That was always her M.O.

MOO

IANAL but in CPS cases the parent would have to prove to the court that the child had not been harmed in some way in order to get out of the neglect/abuse allegations (usually by producing the child for examination). Those cases are usually held in family court. This is a whole different ballgame but I wonder if Lori could potentially continue to plead the 5th and then eventually take something like an Alford plea? (ie: I don't plead guilty but I agree you have enough to convict on the charges). Is there anything like that in Idaho law?

 

[FindingJoLee]

Playing devil's advocate - what if this is done via a passive defense?

She pleads the 5th. Her lawyer asks every state witness if they have any proof the children are alive. He closes by arguing there is no evidence that the children are alive, so prima facie, the jury cannot find her guilty of the charges of desertion. He might specifically deny that she has said anything about whether the children are alive, that he hasn't asked her, but purely on a legal reading of the law, they have to be sure the children are alive to find her guilty.

I look at it through the lens that we do have "no body" murder trials, where circumstantial evidence leads to a very strong presumption that death has occured. It is putting the state in somewhat of a precarious position if they get a guilty verdict on desertion by arguing that she has neglected her duty of care towards them, but then decide to prosecute her for murder or involvement in their murder. It could aid the defense, if they say the government can't have it both ways.

Of course there is the problem that she pretended they were elsewhere when people asked where Tylee was and the police came looking for JJ. Knowing her she will invent wild claims involving threats. That was always her M.O.

MOO

Her lawyer is out of his depth and it sounds like this approach would make his job a LOT easier?!?

 

[BUF]

IANAL but in CPS cases the parent would have to prove to the court that the child had not been harmed in some way in order to get out of the neglect/abuse allegations (usually by producing the child for examination). Those cases are usually held in family court. This is a whole different ballgame but I wonder if Lori could potentially continue to plead the 5th and then eventually take something like an Alford plea? (ie: I don't plead guilty but I agree you have enough to convict on the charges). Is there anything like that in Idaho law?

Although I think that more charges may be coming for LV eventually, here is info on Alford pleas in Idaho...

Idaho does not accept “no contest” pleas. Idaho however does allow defendants to enter “Alford pleas“.

An Alford plea is a plea where the defendant maintains his innocence, but pleads guilty anyway because of the overwhelming evidence against him. When pleading guilty pursuant to an Alford plea, Idaho requires a substantial factual basis for the plea. If there isn’t a factual basis for the plea, then the courts will reject the guilty plea, and the defendant’s case will continue on to a jury trial.

Courts are given wide discretion when it comes to accepting or rejecting Alford pleas. Some judges have their own policies regarding Alford pleas. For example, some judges will not accept an Alford plea unless there is some evidence that the defendant has no recollection of what happened, for example the defendant was too intoxicated to remember what happened.

Can I Plead No Contest in Idaho? What Is An Alford Plea? - Atkinson Law Office

 

[fred&edna]

Her lawyer is out of his depth and it sounds like this approach would make his job a LOT easier?!?

Maybe he will just attempt to plead the fifth himself, lol!!

 

[Nurse Gen]

It does look like he was given a makeover by LV...Their little fantasy role playing game was made into a reality by one of them?

ITA @longtimereader. Now that we hear about other women that Chad hit on with his smooth "we've been married before" moves, IMO Lori seems to have been the gasoline to his flame[/QUOTE]

 

[mrjitty]

Playing devil's advocate - what if this is done via a passive defense?

She pleads the 5th. Her lawyer asks every state witness if they have any proof the children are alive. He closes by arguing there is no evidence that the children are alive, so prima facie, the jury cannot find her guilty of the charges of desertion. He might specifically deny that she has said anything about whether the children are alive, that he hasn't asked her, but purely on a legal reading of the law, they have to be sure the children are alive to find her guilty.

I just don't see how implying the kids are dead provides a defence against the charges? It's not enough for the lawyer to do sock puppet speculation. There would have to be actual evidence produced to support this idea. And anyway, if the theory is the kids died later somehow, wouldn't that prove she abandoned them?

Otherwise the defence gets into admitting knowing something about death which is IMO the whole bind of these charges

I look at it through the lens that we do have "no body" murder trials, where circumstantial evidence leads to a very strong presumption that death has occured. It is putting the state in somewhat of a precarious position if they get a guilty verdict on desertion by arguing that she has neglected her duty of care towards them, but then decide to prosecute her for murder or involvement in their murder. It could aid the defense, if they say the government can't have it both ways.

Of course there is the problem that she pretended they were elsewhere when people asked where Tylee was and the police came looking for JJ. Knowing her she will invent wild claims involving threats. That was always her M.O.

MOO

IMO these charges are just a stalking horse for murder charges to come

 

[MoM3tzger]

Playing devil's advocate - what if this is done via a passive defense?

She pleads the 5th. Her lawyer asks every state witness if they have any proof the children are alive. He closes by arguing there is no evidence that the children are alive, so prima facie, the jury cannot find her guilty of the charges of desertion. He might specifically deny that she has said anything about whether the children are alive, that he hasn't asked her, but purely on a legal reading of the law, they have to be sure the children are alive to find her guilty.

I look at it through the lens that we do have "no body" murder trials, where circumstantial evidence leads to a very strong presumption that death has occured. It is putting the state in somewhat of a precarious position if they get a guilty verdict on desertion by arguing that she has neglected her duty of care towards them, but then decide to prosecute her for murder or involvement in their murder. It could aid the defense, if they say the government can't have it both ways.

....
MOO

This is the absolute best comment I have seen for this story—ever, any place, by anyone!

This is an interesting, well thought-out, logical defense for the two felony desertion and nonsupport of dependent children charges.

I hope LV’s attorney, Means, does not read this website or hire a consultant as clever Tortoise!

IMO, this kind of defense could lead to a not guilty verdict on the felony charges.

As for the misdemeanor counts of resisting and obstructing an officer and solicitation of a crime and contempt...well, according to what has been aired on MSM—there will likely be witness testimony to prove those charges which could, or would, result in verdicts of guilt. Again, JMO.

Assuming this were to happen, LV would only be sentenced on misdemeanor charges.

Therefore, this is EXACTLY what leads me to believe the government has, and has had for months, evidence to charge LV with other charges.

So...just maybe the government is holding off on additional charges against LV until they have enough evidence to charge CD with same or similar charges.

Again, MOO.

And last, a big thanks so much to Tortoise for that post!

 

[wenwe4]

I kinda have to respectfully disagree on the pleading the 5th will get her out of felony charges. Mostly because I believe if she says the kids are dead, the State will say the kids were under her care, custody, and control to provide or ensure provision of the basic necessities of life. I also think the State would make her "prove the kids are dead" or alive. If she cannot do either - I believe it would be the onus on the State to then bring out the big guns for murder charges. I also think that Lori was counting on the fact these kids were not settled in the area - therefore no one would care if they went missing. What she didn't factor in, is all of the humanitarian support in the area from a population of people that no matter what - really do care about kids (no matter how long they have lived in Idaho). JMO

 

[Sorelle19]

I kinda have to respectfully disagree on the pleading the 5th will get her out of felony charges. Mostly because I believe if she says the kids are dead, the State will say the kids were under her care, custody, and control to provide or ensure provision of the basic necessities of life. I also think the State would make her "prove the kids are dead" or alive. If she cannot do either - I believe it would be the onus on the State to then bring out the big guns for murder charges. I also think that Lori was counting on the fact these kids were not settled in the area - therefore no one would care if they went missing. What she didn't factor in, is all of the humanitarian support in the area from a population of people that no matter what - really do care about kids (no matter how long they have lived in Idaho). JMO

Agree. The state has carefully crafted these charges and there's no easy way out. They sit independent of any future charges while serving the purpose of keeping her incarcerated. Bonus: they carry a high penalty.

 

[Sorelle19]

I really feel MG's interview was a game-changer. She was a pivotal member of this "cult" and she's now disavowed it. First-hand account is everything in criminal cases.

Where does that leave any remaining supporters? Her testimony will be damning not just for Lori but also MP in her custody case and CD in possible future charges regarding the death of his wife. She's also neutralized the PR campaign put on by Lori's family. In short, it's become a lot harder to justify what's gone on here, and that even goes for Tammy's family members. Big wake up call, IMO, that has changed the trajectory of this case.

 

[indicolite22]

I really feel MG's interview was a game-changer. She was a pivotal member of this "cult" and she's now disavowed it. First-hand account is everything in criminal cases.

Where does that leave any remaining supporters? Her testimony will be damning not just for Lori but also MP in her custody case and CD in possible future charges regarding the death of his wife. She's also neutralized the PR campaign put on by Lori's family. In short, it's become a lot harder to justify what's gone on here, and that even goes for Tammy's family members. Big wake up call, IMO, that has changed the trajectory of this case.

Chad might have told his family members not to trust the media or people coming forward and accuse both of having an agenda.

 

[wenwe4]

So if Lori's family is traditional LDS, possibly even a couple of generations, how does all of this magical thinking fit with them? The zombie, dark souls, 144K, Lori being "chosen" to follow Chad's teachings, etc.

(ETA: how about Chad's family? What do they think of his twisted religious views?)

Also, I cannot say Chad without thinking of "hanging chads" from the botched Florida election (showing my age). But I think that may be a fitting name right now for him because he is hanging himself out on a limb all for the love of sex, power and money. I think he may have his "Come to Jesus" meeting with his own Attorney in the very near future. My prediction is there is going to be a lot of evidence that FBI & local LEO's have gathered about his own antics.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

So if Lori's family is traditional LDS, possibly even a couple of generations, how does all of this magical thinking fit with them? The zombie, dark souls, 144K, Lori being "chosen" to follow Chad's teachings, etc.

(ETA: how about Chad's family? What do they think of his twisted religious views?)

Also, I cannot say Chad without thinking of "hanging chads" from the botched Florida election (showing my age). But I think that may be a fitting name right now for him because he is hanging himself out on a limb all for the love of sex, power and money. I think he may have his "Come to Jesus" meeting with his own Attorney in the very near future. My prediction is there is going to be a lot of evidence that FBI & local LEO's have gathered about his own antics.

ha ha ....hanging chads is not THAT long ago... I also keep thinking the same.

With so many months between solid activities, we do keep trying to analyze, but without fact. But I truly do feel we MUST realize FBI and LE must have significant data...Our biggest fear is is all this evidence does not put the nail in their coffin in regards to the whereabouts of the kids--more OUR kids at this point, than theirs.

 

[wenwe4]

Ok - I still have more questions (at least they are in my 'hmmmm column')
1) If LVD was telling all of her friends (presumably for up to 4 years prior) to get their stuff together for the end of the world, she was ordering all kinds of stuff to prepare (including books); then why would she say drive off cliff with kids and kill everyone? Was she preparing to live or not?
If she was a 'translated being' who couldn't die, then how does she explain that she has previously been Maroni's wife, James the Just's wife, and Joseph Smith's Grandma - Mary French - who I must point out are all DEAD!

2) I am beyond flabbergasted by how many times she moved these kids, without evidence of actually moving their items. In the house that CV died - there was no furniture. In ID they found very little furniture or personal items of the kids. In Hawaii, LV & CD rented an unfurnished home and abandoned a "long term lease".
For a child on the Autism spectrum it is vital to provide routine, structure, and the ability for the child to anticipate what is happening and what will happen next. Even a stuffed animal, a favorite blanket or toy, his dog who snuggled JJ in his own bed, all of these things would be important. Something like having a kitchen table to eat meals and gather with family to talk about hard things is usually part of a normalizing routine that can calm big emotions for kids.

3) How did she manage to provide for JJ in a tent city? I don't see Lori preparing to spend time parenting after some apocalyptic event. Actually it would appear that Lori didn't see herself parenting after CV's demise - just make sure he and his family members cannot have the kids.

JMO

 

[indicolite22]

So if Lori's family is traditional LDS, possibly even a couple of generations, how does all of this magical thinking fit with them? The zombie, dark souls, 144K, Lori being "chosen" to follow Chad's teachings, etc.

(ETA: how about Chad's family? What do they think of his twisted religious views?)

Also, I cannot say Chad without thinking of "hanging chads" from the botched Florida election (showing my age). But I think that may be a fitting name right now for him because he is hanging himself out on a limb all for the love of sex, power and money. I think he may have his "Come to Jesus" meeting with his own Attorney in the very near future. My prediction is there is going to be a lot of evidence that FBI & local LEO's have gathered about his own antics.

Chad's brother has been estranged from him for years due to Chad's unorthodox beliefs. Chad's children believe that their father is a visionary. Lori's sister invoked freedom of religion when asked about Chad in an interview. Lori and Chad consider themselves above the regular LDS crowd. Some in Lori's family might be flattered that she is the chosen one.

 

[indicolite22]

If she was a 'translated being' who couldn't die, then how does she explain that she has previously been Maroni's wife, James the Just's wife, and Joseph Smith's Grandma - Mary French - who I must point out are all DEAD!

You can become a translated being and thus immortal after a certain number of mortal probations. Apparently Lori has reached that level.

 

[wenwe4]

You can become a translated being and thus immortal after a certain number of mortal probations. Apparently Lori has reached that level.

I wonder if Lori thought her kids had too.

It just makes me wonder if she had no fear of death - either for herself or her children. Like it was just a mere milestone you had to pass through like a turnstile or gate, and all she did was get her kids in queue. I seriously believe that LEO should have a suicide watch on Lori (and Chad) as if they cannot be together in this life - what would keep them from moving into their portals and pulling a Heaven's Gate sort of stunt on or near 6/22/2020?