Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, stepfather found* #10

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Question: Assuming C&L have been communicating with their lawyer, would there ever be a scenario where the lawyer counsels their clients not to show up for a court ordered appearance?

I'm just struggling to understand why any rational, intelligent, innocent person would actively refuse to comply with a legal request/order. No matter if they're innocent or guilty of anything I just can't see how staying in Hawaii and refusing to comply helps their case in any way. But maybe their attorney knows something and has counseled them to not come forward? Such a scenario would seem unthinkable and absolutely egregious and/or unlawful for an attorney to do, but maybe? I don't know.

And if the lawyer has told them "hey, you better get your children and yourselves here post haste," but they refuse to listen to his counsel, then I imagine it would be difficult for him to want to continue to represent them, all things considered. Moo.
 
I think most people upon seeing their estranged husband and brother fight, would usher the kids outside and call 911. Put the kids in a car maybe or a neighbors doorstep. But to leave, take the 7 year-old to school like nothing happened and then come back and NO tears, NO upset, nothing. She seems incapable of feeling. Like a NORMAL person would. Disturbing and those kids needed counseling after that experience, not a pool party after a death. Who does these kind of things?
 
fred&edna said:
I got the impression the case is still open... Otherwise why would the police say they would still like to speak with Lori and Tyler?

ETA:. Sadly, they may say it's open but I doubt they are actively investigating
Click to expand...
Even sadder, it doesn’t appear they ever bothered to really investigate.
 
My assumption is that she will take the contempt of court. I don't think the punishment for contempt of court does not outweighs her overall agenda. I think she's going to push the envelope as far as possible taking whatever municipal hit she could take to avoid whatever grand punishment she may think is headed her way. This either be long jail time or loss of custody of the kids. Most likely she will up and move to a different part of Hawaii and continue to hide or even possibly move to the Keys. A couple thousand dollars lost, a few days in jail is nothing compared to whatever she thinks is the alternative. MOO
Onsdag said:
Question: Assuming C&L have been communicating with their lawyer, would there ever be a scenario where the lawyer counsels their clients not to show up for a court ordered appearance?

I'm just struggling to understand why any rational, intelligent, innocent person would actively refuse to comply with a legal request/order. No matter if they're innocent or guilty of anything I just can't see how staying in Hawaii and refusing to comply helps their case in any way. But maybe their attorney knows something and has counseled them to not come forward? Such a scenario would seem unthinkable and absolutely egregious and/or unlawful for an attorney to do, but maybe? I don't know.

And if the lawyer has told them "hey, you better get your children and yourselves here post haste," but they refuse to listen to his counsel, then I imagine it would be difficult for him to want to continue to represent them, all things considered. Moo.
Click to expand...

Honestly because they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by not complying. Lori is either guilty of a more severe crime or has more to lose with a custody battle that would follow if she appeared. I got a feeling that this is going to be one of those cases where someone says stop or I will say stop again. Lol. I got a feeling for law enforcement the juice is not worth this squeeze. Until one of the two autopsies proves murder I think the can is going to be continued to kick down the road.
 
Onsdag said:
Question: Assuming C&L have been communicating with their lawyer, would there ever be a scenario where the lawyer counsels their clients not to show up for a court ordered appearance?
Click to expand...

I can't imagine any lawyer advising their client to intentionally disobey a valid court order. That could get them disbarred and end their career. That said, the lawyer may not think the court order is valid. In that case the action he would take would be to appeal it, which could be happening. Given the nature of the order it may not be public IF that is what is happening.

What a lawyer MIGHT do is tell them that the consequences of disobeying the order are minimal. In Idaho contempt of court is a misdemeanor. Disobeying might just entail a fine. Even if they were extradicted to Idaho, she would pay a $1000 fine and that would be it. Jail time is a possibility but minimal.

Edit: There may also be jurisdictional issues. On what authority can an Idaho court order Lori to do anything? An Idaho court has no authority over me whatsoever. Usually a court, especially a family court, only has jurisdiction over residents. Lori was not there very long, perhaps less than 90 days. If Tylee and JJ disappeared on September 24, they might have been there less than 30 days. Idaho may have no jurisdiction to protect them.




Onsdag said:
I'm just struggling to understand why any rational, intelligent, innocent person would actively refuse to comply with a legal request/order. No matter if they're innocent or guilty of anything I just can't see how staying in Hawaii and refusing to comply helps their case in any way. But maybe their attorney knows something and has counseled them to not come forward? Such a scenario would seem unthinkable and absolutely egregious and/or unlawful for an attorney to do, but maybe? I don't know.
Click to expand...

We just don't know. If I were accused of something and I knew I was innocent and could prove it, I might not cooperate. I'm not antigovernment at all. But if faced with ridiculous accusations that I knew I could disprove, I just might say f...-off and make it difficult on the authorities.

So if Lori knows the kids are with a trusted person of similar mind (AVOWer) and she could produce them as soon as the first day of her trial for disappearing them, she might get off on outsmarting everyone. But man, if I was the AVOWer watching her kids in 28 deg weather and a snowstorm while she lives it up on Kauai...I might be calling the cops myself!

She is from a family that flouts the government so she might not even think her behavior is unusual.

If Lori and Chad are truly innocent of everything, which I do not believe but have an open mind about, they are really not facing anything terribly serious. Of everything that sticks out to me from the police encounters is that no one looks nervous. Lori might have ice in her veins but even Chad and Tylee do not seem rattled in the various police encounters. I have done nothing illegal but if the cops showed up to question me or search me, I'd be freaked out!
 
Last edited:
A look at how the missing children saga first unfolded in Arizona

29 Jan 2020

[...]

Following the death of Charles, Cox also died, and the autopsy report is pending. Now, FOX 10 has learned that the disappearance of Lori's children singlehandedly kept the fatal shooting investigation open, even though Lori has never been considered a suspect.

Bodycam video from Chandler Police captured the last time Chandler Police officers ever met with Lori on July 11, 2019. She returned to an active crime scene where Charles was shot dead by her brother after a fight inside her home.

According to police, Lori heard the shots fired, but drove off in Charles’ rental car with her kids. When she comes back, she's seen smiling with Tylee, having just dropped off JJ at school.

[...]

Read More: A look at how the missing children saga first unfolded in Arizona
 
Jethro4WS said:
I am curious about the statements issued today about the availability of information about the case in court. Maybe it is just a reminder or perhaps it could indicate that some attorney (not Lori's attorney) has come forward that does have information regarding the children that may come about tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Moo, it's the court reminding the media not to expect anything
 
carbuff said:
Nothing about what I've read says Chandler LE believes the story they were told. But Alex is dead and even if they think they could prove he shot Charles in cold blood, it's a moot point because he can no longer be tried.

It is interesting that they're keeping it open because of the children's case. I wouldn't think there was a connection...but I've wondered that before.
Click to expand...

Maybe in light of all this new information, Chandler PD wants to talk to Tylee without Lori hanging over her shoulder, and re-ask her some of the same questions they once asked her about the shooting, see if her responses have changed.
 
KonaHonu said:
I can't imagine any lawyer advising their client to intentionally disobey a valid court order. That could get them disbarred and end their career. That said, the lawyer may not think the court order is valid. In that case the action he would take would be to appeal it, which could be happening. Given the nature of the order it may not be public IF that is what is happening.

What a lawyer MIGHT do is tell them that the consequences of disobeying the order are minimal. In Idaho contempt of court is a misdemeanor. Disobeying might just entail a fine. Even if they were extradicted to Idaho, she would pay a $1000 fine and that would be it. Jail time is a possibility but minimal.

Edit: There may also be jurisdictional issues. On what authority can an Idaho court order Lori to do anything? An Idaho court has no authority over me whatsoever. Usually a court, especially a family court, only has jurisdiction over residents. Lori was not there very long, perhaps less than 90 days. If Tylee and JJ disappeared on September 24, they might have been there less than 30 days. Idaho may have no jurisdiction to protect them.






We just don't know. If I were accused of something and I knew I was innocent and could prove it, I might not cooperate. I'm not antigovernment at all. But if faced with ridiculous accusations that I knew I could disprove, I just might say f...-off and make it difficult on the authorities.

So if Lori knows the kids are with a trusted person of similar mind (AVOWer) and she could produce them as soon as the first day of her trial for disappearing them, she might get off on outsmarting everyone. But man, if I was the AVOWer watching her kids in 28 deg weather and a snowstorm while she lives it up on Kauai...I might be calling the cops myself!

She is from a family that flouts the government so she might not even think her behavior is unusual.

If Lori and Chad are truly innocent of everything, which I do not believe but have an open mind about, they are really not facing anything terribly serious. Of everything that sticks out to me from the police encounters is that no one looks nervous. Lori might have ice in her veins but even Chad and Tylee do not seem rattled in the various police encounters. I have done nothing illegal but if the cops showed up to question me or search me, I'd be freaked out!
Click to expand...

But if she is collecting SS benefits for the kids, don't they at least do a once a year interview to make sure the kids are still benefiting from them by, oh I don't know, being alive!
 
squareandrabbet said:
Maybe in light of all this new information, Chandler PD wants to talk to Tylee without Lori hanging over her shoulder, and re-ask her some of the same questions they once asked her about the shooting, see if her responses have changed.
Click to expand...

Tylee is still a minor so Lori can direct police not to question her. So there is a good chance they want to wait until she turn 18.

The police do NOT need Lori's permission to question Tylee. If they find her they can question her. So Lori's lawyer may have some convoluted constitutional theory for hiding the kids. Nutshell - 5th amendment applies to those whose testimony you control.
 
RHarrison said:
My assumption is that she will take the contempt of court. I don't think the punishment for contempt of court does not outweighs her overall agenda. I think she's going to push the envelope as far as possible taking whatever municipal hit she could take to avoid whatever grand punishment she may think is headed her way. This either be long jail time or loss of custody of the kids. Most likely she will up and move to a different part of Hawaii and continue to hide or even possibly move to the Keys. A couple thousand dollars lost, a few days in jail is nothing compared to whatever she thinks is the alternative. MOO


Honestly because they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by not complying. Lori is either guilty of a more severe crime or has more to lose with a custody battle that would follow if she appeared. I got a feeling that this is going to be one of those cases where someone says stop or I will say stop again. Lol. I got a feeling for law enforcement the juice is not worth this squeeze. Until one of the two autopsies proves murder I think the can is going to be continued to kick down the road.
Click to expand...
That's just it though. If she's completely innocent of any wrongdoing, the children are safely hidden away for whatever reason, and this whole drama does turn out to be over some bizzare custody battle, then not showing up doesn't help her in any way (at least that I can see). She has more to lose by not showing up because then she'd risk legally losing the kids (if they're ever found), lose the custody dispute ( that was never there to begin with, according to LE), get a criminal record, risk getting thrown in jail, lose her money in costly legal battles, lose the support of family, friends, and others who question her actions and behavior, and who knows what other unforseen consequences.

People keep throwing out this supposed custody dispute as the reason for hiding the kids (assuming they are still alive and hidden somewhere). But yet that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. Here are a few reasons why:

  1. LE says there's no custody dispute. Which means either Lori's defenders are simply mistaken, or LE is lying. Without knowing anything else I would lean towards believing LE over the supporters because LE has greater access to the facts in the case, whereas the supporters only have conjecture at this point. And what I mean by that is I've never heard Lori or anyone else directly tied to the case even mention a custody battle - that argument has only ever come from people who are not personally involved, and with no supporting evidence, ergo it's pure speculation at this point.
  2. Who would even be able to bring forth a valid and legal custody claim? Not Tylee's father, he's dead. Not JJ's adoptive father, he's dead too. Not JJ's biological parents - they ceded custody from the very beginning and wouldn't likely have any standing still. Who does that leave? Grandparents? Lori's parents aren't likely to do that, and besides grandparents generally don't have much legal standing to force a custody battle. Maybe JJ's grandparents? Well, they have shown an interest in the children's safety and well-being, but again grandparents don't have many legal rights in custody disputes. Besides that though, from all appearances they have always looked on Lori with love and great respect as a good mother and caretaker of the kids, and the wife of Charles. It wasn't until after this whole mess broke out that their views and opinions have begun to change a little, but even here they haven't been exactly aggressive or hostile towards her like one would expect considering the circumstances, but genuinely compassionate and trying to make sense of everything in as loving a way as I've ever seen. Who else would have a legal case to fight for custody of the kids? The government maybe? But why would they get involved? They may potentially get involved now with everything that's been happening in the past few months, but there was absolutely no indication of anything like that from before the kids were disappeared.
  3. Even if there was some party involved in a custody dispute, Lori, being the mother and legal guardian of the children, had the backing and full weight of the law on her side. Even if JJ's grandparents were fighting for custody, threatening to take the kids away, or harassing Lori by constantly sending the police to investigate and perform welfare checks (none of which appears to have ever happened), Lori has full rights and could have easily handled the situation legally. As an example, I have had extended family involved in divorces and ugly legal battles for custody of the children where one party or another will try and use the police as a weapon by constantly calling for welfare checks. This almost always and invariably backfires on the person as charges of harassment and/or custodial interference can be filed against them. The one party simply needs to show the child/children to the police to show that they're ok and doing well and then file a complaint against the other party for harassment or custodial interference (assuming they've been doing it habitually and as a means of disrupting legal parent time). I just don't see how hiding the kids away if there truly is a custody dispute is a good idea in any way shape or form. It would most likely backfire on the parent or guardian.
  4. Even if they were hidden away safely because of a custody issue, what kind of parent would tell others that their children are dead or simply never existed, like Lori and Chad apparently are on record as having said? That one's a real head scratcher and doesn't look good no matter how you look at it. Better to simply tell the truth and say that they're in hiding because of a nasty custody dispute. You'd at least get a lot more compassion and sympathy, and maybe people even willing to help you out and take care of the kids if they're perceived to be in danger from a former spouse' family. All moo.
  5. If a custody dispute is truly going on, who in their right mind abandons their children into the care of another for an extended period of time and goes on vacation to a tropical island paradise with no apparent concern or contact with the children? I mean seriously! Like I said earlier, there's been a few custody disputes among my relations, and in every single instance the parent has kept the children as close as possible to themselves at all times, even sometimes at the risk of doing something stupid and ill advised (such as taking the children across state lines without informing the other party in a joint custody case, potentially bringing kidnapping charges against the offending party). If Lori is hiding the children with family, friends, or others, she's sure putting a whole lot of trust in them that they won't turn the kids over to the government, especially with the risk the new guardians would be facing in a missing and endangered children case. I just don't see it happening. Besides that, if they were alive and well, under the care of others, you'd think Lori (assuming she's like any other loving parent) would want to stay in touch with them and make sure they were ok. If such were happening then I'm sure LE would have been able to pick up on that and track them down by now. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to get a search warrant for the phone records of the POI and find out who they've been calling regularly and locate the children from that. Which obviously hasn't happened yet.
A custody battle simply doesn't make any kind of reasonable sense as to why the children might be hidden away. Unfortunately there's a whole lot of other scenarios that do make sense as to why Lori and Chad might want the children disappeared. And it doesn't end well for anyone, especially the children. Moo, sadly. :(
 
So here is one thing frustrating about living in Hawaii:

In this article
Deadline approaching for Idaho mother to produce her 2 missing children to authorities

The Kauai County prosecuter says both parents could be arrested if Lori does not produce the kids. Excuse me. This guy has a law degree and sucks up tax dollars. There is an Idaho order on Lori to produce the kids. Ther is no arrest order for Chad nor can I even fathom any grounds for one. If Lori fails to comply and they arrest Chad...he'll sue and win and Kauai taxpayers will pay, not him. Unfortunately, this is way to common in the islands where we have idiotic statements made by officials who should know better. This is the same guy who said she could be easily extradited. I no longer believe he knows what he is doing!

OTOH, tomorrow should be an interesting day!
 
Onsdag said:
  1. LE says there's no custody dispute. Which means either Lori's defenders are simply mistaken, or LE is lying.
Click to expand...
That's one of the major problems in this country. Ever since the courts decided LE can lie, they have lied routinely. They have no incentive not to lie. When they do there could be reward but no consequence. This leads to mistrust. They can get a deluded theory in their head, legally lie all they want to prove it, then get rewarded and promoted. Sorry it it seems like I'm disparaging LE. I'm only disparaging liars.
 
155etta said:
But if she is collecting SS benefits for the kids, don't they at least do a once a year interview to make sure the kids are still benefiting from them by, oh I don't know, being alive!
Click to expand...
Hard to believe the Social Security Administration has the resources to do that....but maybe. If so, they'll spin up in September of this year, right?
 
KonaHonu said:
That's one of the major problems in this country. Ever since the courts decided LE can lie, they have lied routinely. They have no incentive not to lie. When they do there could be reward but no consequence. This leads to mistrust. They can get a deluded theory in their head, legally lie all they want to prove it, then get rewarded and promoted. Sorry it it seems like I'm disparaging LE. I'm only disparaging liars.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to comment about that. But I will again point out that a custody dispute simply doesn't make sense, based on everything we know. The LE testimony is just one element, among many, pointing to this not being the case. Moo.

ETA: Don't get me wrong, I'd love nothing more than to be wrong, and that the children are alive and well, hidden away with someone, and that this is just one giant misunderstanding. If the kids are alive and well that'd be the greatest thing in the world! However, if something else has happened then the truth needs to be known and justice served.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Fairfield County Jane Doe (1993)?

Members online

... and 83 more.
Total: 1,549 (members: 84, guests: 1,465)

Online statistics

Members online
84
Guests online
1,465
Total visitors
1,549
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
605,837
Messages
18,193,249
Members
233,584
Latest member
elementpro
Back
Top