Robin Hood
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I can't imagine walking up that road day or night.
ID ID - Lonnie Jones, 13, Orofino, September 1951
- Thread starter kline
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Yeah thats one of the first things that struck me was how perfect the second show fit your timeline!
Yes!That is The Fair and lumberjack days very much as Lonnie would have seen it..
At 3:57 of your video your looking right down Johnson Avenue where the Rex Theater is.
I have one on Youtube I just found that you guys need to see!
Its called"Greer To Orofino Run"
Its taken with a camera mounted on the right side of a motor cycle.
The Bike starts down the Greer Grade about a third of the way up.
It goes down the grade into Greer and stops breifly in Greer then it continues thru Greer turns left crosses the Greer Bridge.
At 3:57 youll see exactly where the teenagers would have dropped Lonnie off.
It continues down river towards Orofino.
Between 7:51 and 8:02 is the area where Lonnie was murdered and dumped on the right...same side as the camera .
At 11:38 is the end of the Orofino bridge where Lonnie was picked up(its not the same bridge the old one was replaced in 1997 but the view is the same) at 11:51 after the bike crosses the bridge into Orofino on the right is the turn-off into the Fair Grounds.
frankly I couldnt show you guys a better view of the area weve been discussing short of having you here and driving you guys down the river myself.
Im going to check Amazon for 'The Black Rose'...I have to see it now.
Oh by the way my friend from Weippe called.
She visited the Weippe cemetary I guess Orrin Wood is buried a stones throw from Lonnie.
I hadnt noticed.
Im terrible at posting links but just go to Youtube through Robin's link and type 'Greer to Orofino Run' in Youtube's search engine.
This shows you exactly the area where Lonnie was picked up by the kids.
Where he was dropped off and where he was murdered and the exact ground his killer would have driven that night...just try and picture it in the dark.....
That is the Old Greer Road...its across the river from Greer and connects Greer to the Nez Perce prairie. I made the mistake of trying to drive down it a few years ago hoping it would be a short cut(Hah!)I couldnt go faster then 10mph.Is this the "Greer Grade"? If so, I can't imagine anyone walking up that at night
Down Greer Road - YouTube
Plus I had to stop and let a very Large Black Bear cross the road in front of me.
Its always been my philosophy to give Bears the 'Right Of Way'.
But no, I wouldnt care to walk up it anymore then the Greer Grade!
Robin Hood
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I noticed where Lonnie was left is a nice straight bit of road so the unsub could see any traffic coming from either direction.
Re. Orrin - I picked up on his burial place in proximity to Lonnie's way back when it was first posted and thought to myself if 'I had murdered Lonnie the last place I'd want to be is lying in the ground a stones throw from him' makes you wonder if that somehow takes him out of the picture, just musing really. Maybe it's just my thinking.
After I checked the moon phase (on the previous page) I don't think the unsub could see to pose the body that night. IMO Lonnie lay where he fell until the next evening when I think the unsub returned to remove the restraints (when he could see better) leaving rigamortis to keep Lonnie's hands in place.
It is a straight stretch and I would think that time of night he could hear a vehicle before he saw it.
As you can see from the video he took Lonnie back towards Orofino practicaly as far as he could and still have some area to conceal the body on that side of the road.
After that you pretty much have the river right there,as you can also see there was quite a bit of area where he could have concealed him ANYWHERE on the Greer Grade and its doubtful he ever would be found...it just seems like an unlikely spot to pick ....and he didnt just pick it to dump him he decided to KILL him there...it will never make sense to me.
Ive always had a feeling he wanted to put the body as far in the opposite direction from where he himself was going i.e. up the Greer Grade where his family and 'normal' life were.
Or maybe he hoped the closer he got Lonnie to Orofino people would think some transient Carny was responsible.
Or maybe he always stopped there to take a leak and figured it was a good as spot as any.
I have a feeling you are quite correct about him coming back and removing whatever he bound Lonnie's hands with and yes it would have been pitch black along that stretch at night,of course I dont know what the Moon was like that night.
I wonder how long the killer was on pins and needles waiting for Lonnie to be found?
The searchers who went looking for him would have driven past him God knows how many times.
I keep thinking about the scenario of Lonnie having an unnatural advance made to him either at the theater or during that hour after the movie let out like in Peter's Profile....maybe whoever made it started to seriously worry that Lonnie would tell someone and jerk his covers,maybe with everyone in Weippe and perhaps was following the teenagers car heading in that direction himself and when Lonnie was let out at Greer.....
Of course that doesnt explain that kinky business with the blindfold... its like something out of a Bette Page photo shoot from those '50's Bondage magazines or something.At least thats the feeling I get from it.
At any rate I think that was signifigant to the killer for whatever reason he did it.
Of course we could come up with a hundred different things it may have signified.
Robin Hood
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Kline look at my last post on page 17, it shows the moon and what days it was full/half.
jking
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Thank you! I just watched the video and stopped it at each section you mentioned. It really helps to visualize the area. I bet it hasn't changed that much since 1951 either.
Here's the link for "Greer to Orofino Run":
[video=youtube;q5Km3rvKuys]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Km3rvKuys[/video]
Peter Brendt
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But then, there would also a chance, traffic could see him or at least his vehicle. Which is a philosophical question because at this time of the night, there was anyway no traffic.
I don't think, the real killer would care. When a psyvhopath says, he is sorry, he means, he is sorry he got caught. Not he is sorry, he killed someone.
I doubt it. Rather I would ponder about a torchlight. It's not only the hands that indicate staging, but even more the knees under the stomach. And the legs hadn't been restrained at all. So either I have to believe, he really rolled down and ended up accidentally in this "ready to be raped" position or I have to think staging. But that bluff is only 6 ft. deep, means, an upright standing person wouldn't have enough fall way to pull up the knees and turn around before hitting ground, not even if said person would try intentionally.
Peter
Thank you! I hope to someday be computer literate!
Robin Hood
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That was a very well put together profile Peter, we have little to work with but things are presenting themselves to give us a rough timeline. The cinema and the Kamiah boys
etc.
You may well be correct about staging of the body by the unsub, I was thinking more of the throat being cut from behind and Lonnie falling forwards, knees bending and he taking that position himself. However the more I think about it the unsub must have helped, as you say, Lonnie was in a 'rape' position.
We need the crime scene photos, I'm sure most of us here would know straight away if it was staged.
I would be interested to know why Lonnie wasn't seen by school friends, relatives, neighbours between 4.30pm and the movie.
I also agree that Lonnie wasn't restrained when his fingers were scraped or we, IMO would see restraint marks created by his clawing and pulling on the bindings.
The vehicle used, again as Peter said, is likely a delivery truck.
I haven't managed to find any similar crimes in the news apart from Mr Walter Cunningham, I can understand why rape would not be reported but murder is a different crime, the victim doesn't have a choice.
Maybe I might search the news for any local killed in Korea or car accidents etc, although that would be a dead end (excuse the pun)
Excellent profile Peter, we have to build on it now.
etc.
You may well be correct about staging of the body by the unsub, I was thinking more of the throat being cut from behind and Lonnie falling forwards, knees bending and he taking that position himself. However the more I think about it the unsub must have helped, as you say, Lonnie was in a 'rape' position.
We need the crime scene photos, I'm sure most of us here would know straight away if it was staged.
I would be interested to know why Lonnie wasn't seen by school friends, relatives, neighbours between 4.30pm and the movie.
I also agree that Lonnie wasn't restrained when his fingers were scraped or we, IMO would see restraint marks created by his clawing and pulling on the bindings.
The vehicle used, again as Peter said, is likely a delivery truck.
I haven't managed to find any similar crimes in the news apart from Mr Walter Cunningham, I can understand why rape would not be reported but murder is a different crime, the victim doesn't have a choice.
Maybe I might search the news for any local killed in Korea or car accidents etc, although that would be a dead end (excuse the pun)
Excellent profile Peter, we have to build on it now.
Peter Brendt
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Thanks!
But forget Korea for now. First, it is hard to get information about that time from there, second, it would be hard to make the connection.
As I said, we look for someone who drove back then a delivery van or a little bus (too early for the VW Bully though), who was married with children, who was noticed for playing macho on the outside, who was noticed hanging out as adult in the places, the teenagers hung out (around the Rex). So in other words, we need LE in the boat because they have access to old DMV records and we need the local AARP in the boat because they remember people from back then. Cross reference all the traits from the profile and you get probably a very limited suspect pool. Unfortunately, most of those suspects will be already long gone.
Peter
Robin Hood
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As you know Kline is going to try and chat with somebody I'm hoping was a school friend of Lonnie's. If I have the right person we might want to put something together for him to use, questions etc.
Robin Hood
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Would you know how to get Walter Cunninghams files Peter ? I just want to satisfy myself really. He niggles me.
Robin Hood
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Was just reading about another case (nothing to do with Lonnie) and noticed a profile, found this bit interesting. From this report of the murder of a Pastor, it's a woman victim but never the less it's info.
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/current/TULSA1.htm
''"If the body was posed, I can state unequivocally, it's extremely rare circumstances," said Vernon Geberth, crime author and expert. "Less than one percent of all homicides present sexually posed victims."
Experts say posed bodies are more likely to be women and often include sexual assault. Police have not released any information concerning sexual assault in Pastor Daniels' case; however, the autopsy diagrams show her left breast was severely injured, which Geberth says is sexual in nature.
"I do see mutilation to the breast, so I have to assume it's a sexual presentation, the cutting to the throat is also interesting, because it's sexual as is strangulation," Geberth said''
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/current/TULSA1.htm
''"If the body was posed, I can state unequivocally, it's extremely rare circumstances," said Vernon Geberth, crime author and expert. "Less than one percent of all homicides present sexually posed victims."
Experts say posed bodies are more likely to be women and often include sexual assault. Police have not released any information concerning sexual assault in Pastor Daniels' case; however, the autopsy diagrams show her left breast was severely injured, which Geberth says is sexual in nature.
"I do see mutilation to the breast, so I have to assume it's a sexual presentation, the cutting to the throat is also interesting, because it's sexual as is strangulation," Geberth said''
Peter Brendt
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Given the time when it all happened, this sounds more like a job for Kline since it's all paper and not digital. Court documents of Cunningham vs the people, inmate records from wherever he served, that should be all public domain only in paper and attainable via the Freedom of Information Act. Where he lived and with how many people is maybe already free in the oldest censuses. Birth certificates and death certificates would be probably in ancestry.com, but they demand money. Same for divorce decrees.
If you have an address, you can check with the IRS, property taxes should be public records too. For DMV records, you would need LE, I assume. This is what comes to my mind quickly. Anything else, I forgot?
Peter
Peter Brendt
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He is right with that. Unfortunately, this one percent makes 90% of my regular customers. Mathematically the point is, that less than 1% of all homicides means exactly that: ALL homicides. That includes mugging family shootings, the occasional company shooting and so on. And since it's count by bodies, most homicides are in their nature basically non-sexual. But when it comes to SKs, most of them fall in categories of sex offenders or rage offenders (often both) and so in this realm, the percentage of stagers is much higher.
Of course, Geberth forgot to mention reason #4 for staging as well: Staging as statement or message. That is admittedly the rarest category but mostly because mission-driven SKs are rare at all.
There are more heterosexual sex offenders out there than homosexual ones. Which is no miracle since straights outnumber gays in the normal population as well. You have of course also to add female homosexual offenders to the number of female victims as well. So far more women fall victim to sex offenders and thus, staged female victims are more frequent than staged male victims in all kinds of sex crimes.
And yes, concentration on primary or secondary sexual organs indicate sexual motives, even I wouldn't dare in this case to be so 100% firm on that, since I miss the mutilation of primary sexual organs or stabbing of the lower abdomen.
Well, he was soooo good ... till he reached that point. Cutting the throat and strangulation can as well be MOs of convenience since both demand no weapons or easy to obtain weapons, even in the situation. Mr. Geberth should make the difference between strangulation and ligature strangulation as well. But that's for another case (compare Anthony Allen Shore for example).
In general, I wouldn't go over any bridge as long as I don't see in a case at least three details pointing in that direction. Like in Lonnie's case
- rape
- staging in sexual position
- victimology
But there have been already strange cases, including cases in which a perpetrator raped his victim ante-mortem before strangling her ... because he wanted to steal the money he had in the house, but tried to hide, it was just robbery. I learned to be more careful the hard way.
Peter
Robin Hood
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Cheers Peter on the above.
Re Cunningham - ''inmate records from wherever he served'' I have tried that by email and rec'd no reply. I used the freedom of info blah, blah and they just ignored me.
Re the Census, I was hoping for his address on his paperwork, I think I need that for this search type.
I found his child who died listed, giving me the mother and father etc but can find no birth or death for him.
Anybody else in Idaho that can have a look for a paper trail ? Poor Kline has lots to do
already.
Re Cunningham - ''inmate records from wherever he served'' I have tried that by email and rec'd no reply. I used the freedom of info blah, blah and they just ignored me.
Re the Census, I was hoping for his address on his paperwork, I think I need that for this search type.
I found his child who died listed, giving me the mother and father etc but can find no birth or death for him.
Anybody else in Idaho that can have a look for a paper trail ? Poor Kline has lots to do
already.
Peter Brendt
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And here's a little bit of practical psychology: Emails are easier ignored than letter, letters are easier ignored than phone calls. And phone calls, which made the other person feeling good by doing what you want are rarely ignored :floorlaugh:
They just opened the 1940 census. So those information should appear in the next weeks in ancestry. What you need is name and area at least. Can be, it's already up as uscensus.com.
So you have the name of the child? Did you look at findagrave? Sometimes relatives are mentioned. Same with obits in the local press.
Kline does the work of five people already. Would be so nice if LE would do also a little share.
Peter
Robin Hood
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Yeah, I would call myself but I'm, as you know, out of the States.
I imagined the census would need the address which without Cunninghams details I don't have. It's open already, but IIRC an address is needed.
Child died at 23 hours old, wasn't named. Can't see an obit being used.
Thanks anyway.