If what Kolar implies is correct, what would justice look like?

[johnjay]

Assuming that what James Kolar implies in Foreign Faction is basically correct, then what do you think should have happened to Burke, Patsy, and John had justice been done?

I'm curious about what would have been reasonable justice in two different scenarios.

From my interpretation of Foreign Faction.

1)
JonBenet and Burke were downstairs while John and Patsy were in their own bedroom.

Burke hit her on the head, poked her with a piece of train track, abused her, and strangled her to death with a garrote.

The parents found the girl very obviously dead, cleaned her up as best they could, changed her clothes, wrapped her in her blanket, and decided to cover-up what actually happened to protect the family, especially Burke. They wrote the ransom note, told Burke what to say, and did whatever they could to draw attention away from him.

I'll add: also assume that the grand jury indictments were correct and both parents not only assisted in covering up the murder but also: did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet. (I take that to imply that Burke had hurt JonBenet before and the parents didn't act appropriately to protect JonBenet from him.)

and 2)

Which is the same as 1 except that, what if instead of the cover-up, the parents called 911 when they found the body and told the truth. (The reckless endangerment still may apply.)

What should have happened in those situations?

 

[Sunshine4Me]

To me, reasonable justice on 1 with the cover up would have been to charge the parents as should have been done in the first place. They shouldn't have lied about it and covered it up if it was a tragedy that they themselves had no part in.

Reasonable justice on 2 with them calling and telling the truth would be no charges on the parents but definitely therapy or treatment of some type for Burke, and that is assuming it was of course Burke who did it. And parenting classes and counseling for the parents I think because the parents do hold some responsibility, but I don't know that anyone could honestly see this outcome, even with children who hate each other and get violent. Many children do go through violent stages and grow out of them without murdering their siblings. I would almost feel sorry for them if they had told the truth and not covered it up. I think Burke would have needed to be monitored to ensure he was learning how to cope with life better. And he would probably have needed to have learned some stress release techniques, although they may or may not have helped him. And anger management. Medication too if a doctor recommended it, but he may have already been on some. Since his records were sealed we can't know. That would be up to the therapist. I'm sure if they had found that he was the guilty party and recommended him for treatment he would have been on medication though. Probably some more things that I can't think of right now but that's off the top of my head. It's hard to think of proper treatment for a child, I'm not a medical professional but I don't think a child should be treated like we would treat an adult who killed someone. We should do everything we can to try to help the child if we at all can.



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[Amonet]

I am going more on the two-part special and the conclusions reached in that (Burke, accident, no sexual assault, parents involved in cover-up).

In that case, then if they'd immediately called an ambulance and told the truth to the police, then I think no charges at all but mandated counseling for Burke.

If that was the case but the parents embarked on the cover up, which has lasted all these years...I think we'd all have differing opinions. If Burke did hurt his sister by accident, a child not knowing his own strength and the consequences of the blow to the head, I don't think you can punish him for that either at the time or after all these years. Patsy is gone. John is the only relevant 'guilty' person I see in this scenario who is still with us. I would have sympathy for John and Patsy for wanting to protect their son, though I can't imagine why they didn't choose to call an ambulance/police. But, if this scenario is the truth, they cost an enormous amount of police money. They made TV appearances and I believe wrote books? Any profits they made I think should be forfeited to charities for abducted/murdered children and their families. I can't imagine what kind of custodial sentence would be appropriate though.

 

[ozazure]

Legal justice or moral justice?

To me, a lot hinges on how wilfully they were ignoring warning signs and professional advice prior to the murder. If they were dysfunctional but seeking help that is very different to parents who are already lying and minimising or hiding their child's behaviour. To me that is the difference between inept and culpable. I tend to think they were the latter and knew very disturbing things and JonBenet's murder was an escalation, not out of the blue. They had had a taste of the reality of people's reactions and opinions for lesser transgressions, did not care for it, and so had already committed to a course of action called denial in all forms.They dealt with the reality the night of the murder then went to live in lala land again. The GJ charges were probably relevant.

I had a lot of sympathy for Burke given these beliefs, until his interview. I have it still for 9yo Burke.

 

[CorallaroC]

Ozazure, very thoughtful post you made above. Very much worth thinking about.

 

[Duchess518]

I posted this in another thread as well.

If it came out (confession or iron clad evidence) that Burke killed JB, I don't think he would suffer any legal charges. John would. But (and I hate to say this I really feel like a horrible person for this) in the court of public opinion, I feel that Burke isn't safe (even now). I feel like someone would take matters into thier own hands.

 

[UKGuy]

Assuming that what James Kolar implies in Foreign Faction is basically correct, then what do you think should have happened to Burke, Patsy, and John had justice been done?

I'm curious about what would have been reasonable justice in two different scenarios.

From my interpretation of Foreign Faction.

1)
JonBenet and Burke were downstairs while John and Patsy were in their own bedroom.

Burke hit her on the head, poked her with a piece of train track, abused her, and strangled her to death with a garrote.

The parents found the girl very obviously dead, cleaned her up as best they could, changed her clothes, wrapped her in her blanket, and decided to cover-up what actually happened to protect the family, especially Burke. They wrote the ransom note, told Burke what to say, and did whatever they could to draw attention away from him.

I'll add: also assume that the grand jury indictments were correct and both parents not only assisted in covering up the murder but also: did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet. (I take that to imply that Burke had hurt JonBenet before and the parents didn't act appropriately to protect JonBenet from him.)

and 2)

Which is the same as 1 except that, what if instead of the cover-up, the parents called 911 when they found the body and told the truth. (The reckless endangerment still may apply.)

What should have happened in those situations?

johnjay,
Remember that bit in one of the CBS episodes where Patsy comes out into the garden after the OJ result has been broadcast and remarks to the Gardener You can get away with murder in this country.

If I was to produce a JonBenet Documentary I would place that quote at the beginning and end.

I think after the CBS episodes Justice has been served by the media, nearly everyone now knows that the R's were prime suspects, and that BR will have to live with that for the rest of his life.

JR has been ruined by the case nobody will employ him. The GJ could still reconvene and address any new evidence, e.g. touch-dna on the various crime-scene artifacts.

JR should likely face a charge of child neglect, since that's what happened, but after all this time, with Patsy dead, and the possibility JR simply stood by his family, it would look like a case of scapegoating.

JR was indirectly correct in the A&E documentary where he referred to himself and his family as victims, of BPD and the righteous police, etc.

That's because everyone knows the case a bit better and the R's never got away with it, people never forgot about JonBenet, the real victim.

.

 

[TeaTime]

What would be justice? The truth for once.

Let everyone know that JR and PR covered up the murder of their child by their other, disturbed child. Tell the world that BR killed his sister and his parents spent their wealth protecting him. Let him know that the stress of what he put them through likely cause the premature death of his mother. And make them pay Boulder for all the investigative work that was spent trying to solve the case while the parents refused to cooperate and derailed the investigation at every turn.

Justice is the truth.

 

[kanzz]

One thing I know for sure after reading your questions, johnjay -- I need to re-read FF. I didn't come away from it thinking that he was saying that both parents were involved in the RN, cover-up, undoing, etc. Or even that BR was necessarily still up after the crime and prior to the end of the 911 call. I thought he might have possibly gone to bed before PR discovered JB, but that is pure speculation.

One thing that stood out for me from Kolar's reddit AMA:
[–]STELLER100
Do you think JR discovered the body after the Police arrived but before noon?
[–]jameskolar
Yes, based upon statements of his daughter's fiance, I believe John found JBR's body around 1100 am, when Det. Arndt lost track of his whereabouts for around an hour. He never reported this to the officers on scene.

This fed into my theory that JR didn't know until he started piecing it together after PR handed him the RN and he recognized the handwriting. Just my thoughts. I definitely need to re-read.

 

[Sparko96]

Justice would be a confession and several apologies from JR and BR. Those tainted by the Rs accusations deserve justice as does JBR.


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[kanzz]

One thing I know for sure after reading your questions, johnjay -- I need to re-read FF. I didn't come away from it thinking that he was saying that both parents were involved in the RN, cover-up, undoing, etc. Or even that BR was necessarily still up after the crime and prior to the end of the 911 call. I thought he might have possibly gone to bed before PR discovered JB, but that is pure speculation.

One thing that stood out for me from Kolar's reddit AMA:
[–] STELLER100
Do you think JR discovered the body after the Police arrived but before noon?
[–] jameskolar
Yes, based upon statements of his daughter's fiance, I believe John found JBR's body around 1100 am, when Det. Arndt lost track of his whereabouts for around an hour. He never reported this to the officers on scene.

This fed into my theory that JR didn't know until he started piecing it together after PR handed him the RN and he recognized the handwriting. Just my thoughts. I definitely need to re-read.

Apologies for replying to my own post. I went back to the Kolar reddit AMA and expanded that portion. It just firms up my theory.

[–] STELLER100
Do you think JR discovered the body after the Police arrived but before noon?
permalinkembed
[–] jameskolar
Yes, based upon statements of his daughter's fiance, I believe John found JBR's body around 1100 am, when Det. Arndt lost track of his whereabouts for around an hour. He never reported this to the officers on scene...
permalinkembedparent
[–] WerewolfSpiderman
More than anything the thought of the way discovery of the body was handled always seemed so... wrong. It sounded like a majorly overwhelming situation to keep the family and invited friends contained to one room but for him to be missing in the home an hour? Seems more than enough time to stage the areas that were found.
permalinkembedparent
[–] FrankieHellis
Do you believe he had not known it was down there before this discovery?
permalinkembedparent
[–] jameskolar
An evaluation of the statement made by John, which I considered to be a spontaneous utterance that formed criminal culpability, suggests that he was not aware that her body was downstairs until he went roaming after the 1000 am ransom failed to come.
He became an accessory to crime when he failed to tell Det. Arndt that he had discovered the body. His beeline to the basement later with Fleet was thought to be a ruse.
Arndt had her hands full with the house packed with friends, and with Patsy, who was extremely distraught, puking and crying..
permalinkembedparent
[–] FrankieHellis
This makes no sense though. If he didn't know where the body was then he wasn't part of it. If he wasn't part of it, then why would he cover for family members who were? Wouldn't he assume it had been an intruder?
permalinkembedparent
[–] jameskolar
Think it through. What reason would he have to cover for family, and if he did, wouldn't he then become an accessory after the fact?
The changing story line of his statements over the following months was indicative of deception.
If he recognized Patsy's handwriting, and her 'turn of phrase' in the ransom note, why would he think there was an intruder involved?
permalinkembedparent
[–] pantherplane
Why would John not call 911 then? Being described as "calm" and cordial it seems he would opposed to the "hysterical" Patsy.
permalinkparent
[–] jameskolar
Good question. I suspect that he was trying very hard to make sense of the ransom note and told her to go ahead and call police while he studied it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/30nfvc/hi_im_chief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/


But I still want to re-read FF.

 

[No it's not]

I agree with Boulder Police Chief Greg Testa, that justice in this case would be an arrest and a successful prosecution:

Published on September 1st, 2016

[video=vimeo;180189152]https://vimeo.com/180189152[/video]

Thanks for the thread,

Nin

 

[PositiveLight]

Truth. Justice would be the truth. To stop all of these lawsuits and admit what really happened that night.
Burke needs to take responsibility for his actions that night.
JR needs to take responsibility for his actions that night and every day for the past 20 years.
I'm tired of the rich literally getting away with murder.
Justice for JonBenet would be the actual truth. No holds barred. Confession. Apology to all of those who worked this case so long for so many years and agonized over it. Those LE and anyone else involved since the beginning. They are haunted by this case. By JonBenet. They seek justice.
For all of their friends and those who were dumped as friends. They deserve apologies for asking them to keep what they know a secret and for those who refused to for being ostracized. There are damages in the wake of this tragedy.
To say that they shouldn't have to be responsible for anything due to the statute of limitations and infancy law is unfair.
I think enough people have carried this burden. They want justice and justice is the truth.
I have friends in LE and they said there are cases that will haunt them till the day they die. Especially the ones that go unsolved.

 

[Sunshine4Me]

Truth. Justice would be the truth. To stop all of these lawsuits and admit what really happened that night.
Burke needs to take responsibility for his actions that night.
JR needs to take responsibility for his actions that night and every day for the past 20 years.
I'm tired of the rich literally getting away with murder.
Justice for JonBenet would be the actual truth. No holds barred. Confession. Apology to all of those who worked this case so long for so many years and agonized over it. Those LE and anyone else involved since the beginning. They are haunted by this case. By JonBenet. They seek justice.
For all of their friends and those who were dumped as friends. They deserve apologies for asking them to keep what they know a secret and for those who refused to for being ostracized. There are damages in the wake of this tragedy.
To say that they shouldn't have to be responsible for anything due to the statute of limitations and infancy law is unfair.
I think enough people have carried this burden. They want justice and justice is the truth.
I have friends in LE and they said there are cases that will haunt them till the day they die. Especially the ones that go unsolved.

Well said PositiveLight. Reasonable justice now 20 years later from an adult Burke and from John are truth and apologies to the public, LE, and to those they hurt, silenced, and cast blame on along the way. It might hurt their pride, but I personally would have more respect for them if they did come forward with the truth, whatever the truth turned out to be.

 

[johnjay]

Apologies for replying to my own post. I went back to the Kolar reddit AMA and expanded that portion. It just firms up my theory.

[–] STELLER100
Do you think JR discovered the body after the Police arrived but before noon?
permalinkembed
[–] jameskolar
Yes, based upon statements of his daughter's fiance, I believe John found JBR's body around 1100 am, when Det. Arndt lost track of his whereabouts for around an hour. He never reported this to the officers on scene...
permalinkembedparent
[–] WerewolfSpiderman
More than anything the thought of the way discovery of the body was handled always seemed so... wrong. It sounded like a majorly overwhelming situation to keep the family and invited friends contained to one room but for him to be missing in the home an hour? Seems more than enough time to stage the areas that were found.
permalinkembedparent
[–] FrankieHellis
Do you believe he had not known it was down there before this discovery?
permalinkembedparent
[–] jameskolar
An evaluation of the statement made by John, which I considered to be a spontaneous utterance that formed criminal culpability, suggests that he was not aware that her body was downstairs until he went roaming after the 1000 am ransom failed to come.
He became an accessory to crime when he failed to tell Det. Arndt that he had discovered the body. His beeline to the basement later with Fleet was thought to be a ruse.
Arndt had her hands full with the house packed with friends, and with Patsy, who was extremely distraught, puking and crying..
permalinkembedparent
[–] FrankieHellis
This makes no sense though. If he didn't know where the body was then he wasn't part of it. If he wasn't part of it, then why would he cover for family members who were? Wouldn't he assume it had been an intruder?
permalinkembedparent
[–] jameskolar
Think it through. What reason would he have to cover for family, and if he did, wouldn't he then become an accessory after the fact?
The changing story line of his statements over the following months was indicative of deception.
If he recognized Patsy's handwriting, and her 'turn of phrase' in the ransom note, why would he think there was an intruder involved?
permalinkembedparent
[–] pantherplane
Why would John not call 911 then? Being described as "calm" and cordial it seems he would opposed to the "hysterical" Patsy.
permalinkparent
[–] jameskolar
Good question. I suspect that he was trying very hard to make sense of the ransom note and told her to go ahead and call police while he studied it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/30nfvc/hi_im_chief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/


But I still want to re-read FF.

I found Kolar to be less than clear in what he thought in Foreign Faction, he seemed to want, or need, people to draw their own conclusions. But on the CBS show it was suggested that two minds were involved in creating the ransom note. And John was heard on the 911 call talking to Burke, and then he told people Burke was asleep in his room. That alone strongly suggests to me that John knew what was happening at the time of the 911 call.

But in any case, Kolar, like the Grand Jury, eventually has John participating in the cover-up - so whether he started doing that at 11:00 that morning or before doesn't have too much effect on my "what would justice look like" question.

Also, the fact that Patsy and John could hold their story together for so long suggest to me that their relationship was close enough that if one found JonBenet they would immediately call their spouse. I think Kolar is reading too much into John reporting that he found the body at 11:00. There are a lot of reason why a person under the kind of stress he was under might make such a mistake.

But, both Kolar and the GJ agree that John eventually was part of the cover-up. In Foreign Faction, Kolar spent a lot of time explaining how John made subtle changes to his story over time. For my "what would justice look like question" it doesn't really matter if that started before or after 11:00 that morning. I certainly don't think John strangled his daughter, I see nothing that suggests he would do such a thing.

 

[Karinna]

I'm not really sure how anyone can expect justice be served in this case when some experts have concluded that investigators botched the case so thoroughly that it might never be solved, and therein lies the problem.
And that has also been the brunt of so much theory and speculation over the years since JBR's death, that i would agree with that. And even today all the theory & speculation still goes on, and will probably continue until people get tired of trying to figure it out.
And i also believe no one will ever be held accountable for what happened to JBR, if the grand jury wouldn't officially indict & bring the case to prosecution & trial due to lack of evidence. With all the reasonable doubt in this case about who did what to JBR, i doubt a jury would have found them guilty of first degree murder anyway. JMO.

 

[madeleine]

Apologies for replying to my own post. I went back to the Kolar reddit AMA and expanded that portion. It just firms up my theory.

[–] STELLER100
Do you think JR discovered the body after the Police arrived but before noon?
permalinkembed
[–] jameskolar
Yes, based upon statements of his daughter's fiance, I believe John found JBR's body around 1100 am, when Det. Arndt lost track of his whereabouts for around an hour. He never reported this to the officers on scene...
permalinkembedparent
[–] WerewolfSpiderman
More than anything the thought of the way discovery of the body was handled always seemed so... wrong. It sounded like a majorly overwhelming situation to keep the family and invited friends contained to one room but for him to be missing in the home an hour? Seems more than enough time to stage the areas that were found.
permalinkembedparent
[–] FrankieHellis
Do you believe he had not known it was down there before this discovery?
permalinkembedparent
[–] jameskolar
An evaluation of the statement made by John, which I considered to be a spontaneous utterance that formed criminal culpability, suggests that he was not aware that her body was downstairs until he went roaming after the 1000 am ransom failed to come.
He became an accessory to crime when he failed to tell Det. Arndt that he had discovered the body. His beeline to the basement later with Fleet was thought to be a ruse.
Arndt had her hands full with the house packed with friends, and with Patsy, who was extremely distraught, puking and crying..
permalinkembedparent
[–] FrankieHellis
This makes no sense though. If he didn't know where the body was then he wasn't part of it. If he wasn't part of it, then why would he cover for family members who were? Wouldn't he assume it had been an intruder?
permalinkembedparent
[–] jameskolar
Think it through. What reason would he have to cover for family, and if he did, wouldn't he then become an accessory after the fact?
The changing story line of his statements over the following months was indicative of deception.
If he recognized Patsy's handwriting, and her 'turn of phrase' in the ransom note, why would he think there was an intruder involved?
permalinkembedparent
[–] pantherplane
Why would John not call 911 then? Being described as "calm" and cordial it seems he would opposed to the "hysterical" Patsy.
permalinkparent
[–] jameskolar
Good question. I suspect that he was trying very hard to make sense of the ransom note and told her to go ahead and call police while he studied it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/30nfvc/hi_im_chief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/


But I still want to re-read FF.

many thanks for the link. a lot of interesting information. so the bpd never sought the golf bags? they DID review JB's medical records? liked when he said that if he gets sued he will depose the family cause he knows exactly what to ask them. thanks again, was a great read

and did I understand right that there is evidence only the killer would know about ? he talks about instantly knowing Karr was lying because the real killer would have known different

 

[Occams Razor]

To answer the original question of this thread: I'd still like to see JR be held accountable for his role (i.e. what the Grand Jury wanted to indict them for--endangering JBR or whatever). If a child harms another child in the home, it's the parent/guardian's responsibility to get help, not stage a crime scene and 'finish' the victim off, write a fake ransom note, etc. If BR was showing signs of aggression or abnormal behavior, that means the parents had advanced warning which makes them even more liable. Any subsequent lying or obstruction that happened after 12/25/96 should be tacked onto JR's imaginary charges as well. Of course he deserves a fair trial, but he SHOULD have to stand trial at some point. The fact that the Rams never went to trial still blows my mind. :tantrum:

*If* Kolar was right about BR's role, I'd say he's paid his due since he was under the legal age of responsibility. His reputation is pretty much tarnished for life...at least online. (I'm still not convinced he did any of it, let alone anything intentional. But I don't rule it out either). I believe JBR's main killer is already deceased, which means there is little justice to be had.

 

[kanzz]

I found Kolar to be less than clear in what he thought in Foreign Faction, he seemed to want, or need, people to draw their own conclusions. But on the CBS show it was suggested that two minds were involved in creating the ransom note. And John was heard on the 911 call talking to Burke, and then he told people Burke was asleep in his room. That alone strongly suggests to me that John knew what was happening at the time of the 911 call.

But in any case, Kolar, like the Grand Jury, eventually has John participating in the cover-up - so whether he started doing that at 11:00 that morning or before doesn't have too much effect on my "what would justice look like" question.

Also, the fact that Patsy and John could hold their story together for so long suggest to me that their relationship was close enough that if one found JonBenet they would immediately call their spouse. I think Kolar is reading too much into John reporting that he found the body at 11:00. There are a lot of reason why a person under the kind of stress he was under might make such a mistake.

But, both Kolar and the GJ agree that John eventually was part of the cover-up. In Foreign Faction, Kolar spent a lot of time explaining how John made subtle changes to his story over time. For my "what would justice look like question" it doesn't really matter if that started before or after 11:00 that morning. I certainly don't think John strangled his daughter, I see nothing that suggests he would do such a thing.

Right. I think Kolar was intentionally vague in FF. And I do believe that BR was there by the end of the 911 call. Whether JR knew everything at that point or not isn't clear to me, but I do think he at least suspected that PR wrote the RN. No matter when he knew the full story, he indeed became an accessory. And I didn't mean to derail the thread. My apologies if it seemed so.

Getting back to your original question: "I'm curious about what would have been reasonable justice in two different scenarios."

If justice had been allowed to take place expeditiously:

In scenario #1 -
BR would have received proper treatment, probably in a facility.
PR and JR would have been prosecuted for accessory after the fact and reckless endangerment.

​

In scenario #2 -
BR would have received proper treatment, probably in a facility.
PR and JR might have been charged with reckless endangerment.​

I think, in #2, a more thorough investigation would have been allowed from the beginning. This would have produced the complete medical records of all involved, including JB and BR, thereby leading to a possible reckless endangerment charge.

 

[johnjay]

Right. I think Kolar was intentionally vague in FF. And I do believe that BR was there by the end of the 911 call. Whether JR knew everything at that point or not isn't clear to me, but I do think he at least suspected that PR wrote the RN. No matter when he knew the full story, he indeed became an accessory. And I didn't mean to derail the thread. My apologies if it seemed so.

Not at all, I'm grateful for the correction about Kolar's opinion that John didn't see the body until 11:00 that morning - but I don't believe that.

Getting back to your original question: "I'm curious about what would have been reasonable justice in two different scenarios."

If justice had been allowed to take place expeditiously:

In scenario #1 -
BR would have received proper treatment, probably in a facility.
PR and JR would have been prosecuted for accessory after the fact and reckless endangerment.

​

In scenario #2 -
BR would have received proper treatment, probably in a facility.
PR and JR might have been charged with reckless endangerment.​

I think, in #2, a more thorough investigation would have been allowed from the beginning. This would have produced the complete medical records of all involved, including JB and BR, thereby leading to a possible reckless endangerment charge.

Yes, and I think BR would have been better off if that happened.