IL IL - Dermot Kelly, 16, Oglesby, Jan 1972

[Satch]

Snipped by me

Anyone who works for a company that issues credit cards or runs credit reports can search his SSN. Many years ago, I used to work for a department store chain's credit department. We ran SSNs all the time, and occasionally, we would find a SSN that "belonged" to more than one person. In these cases, it was usually people who bought SSNs (people who are here illegally will do this). We could see where the number originated-for example, the first three numbers of a SSN indicate the region of the country in which a person was born and issued the number. Mine starts with 55, which indicates California; my husband's starts with 47, which indicates Iowa. We could also see the year the number was issued and the name of the person to whom the number belonged.

If his number has been used since his disappearance, it might be possible to track down the user; however, it might turn out to be someone who bought the number illegally.

Anyone who is legally authorized to run credit reports can run a SSN to get this info.

Thanks!

Obviously, to preserve confidentiality, we can't post the SS# on the forum, but I would love to know if LE has done an SS# and information search for DK to see if it has been used since his disappearance.? It would be an excellent tangible reference point that we have something about this gentlemen that is evidence.

Dermot would be such a cool friend! I studied philosophy in school and always liked creative writing. I mention this because I think Dermot may have had a similar passion for these interests, and would be a master at creative writing, poetry, and philosophy! I wish that we could read some stuff he wrote! I just feel that he is the kind of person to whom you could talk to about anything! And he would always listen and have great empathy for what people have to say.

We are missing such an important part of this case as a main puzzle piece. The statements and thoughts of Dermot himself. It would have been such an honor and a privilege to know him!

Satch

 

[marie-chantal]

Thanks!

Obviously, to preserve confidentiality, we can't post the SS# on the forum, but I would love to know if LE has done an SS# and information search for DK to see if it has been used since his disappearance.? It would be an excellent tangible reference point that we have something about this gentlemen that is evidence.

Dermot would be such a cool friend! I studied philosophy in school and always liked creative writing. I mention this because I think Dermot may have had a similar passion for these interests, and would be a master at creative writing, poetry, and philosophy! I wish that we could read some stuff he wrote! I just feel that he is the kind of person to whom you could talk to about anything! And he would always listen and have great empathy for what people have to say.

We are missing such an important part of this case as a main puzzle piece. The statements and thoughts of Dermot himself. It would have been such an honor and a privilege to know him!

Satch

Is there still a detective assigned to his case? If there is, then maybe someone could call that person and ask him/her to run Dermot's SSN. It only takes seconds to do, and LE would definitely have access to that database.

If he was into writing, then it's always possible that he made it to New York or even Paris. These places are havens for writers/philosophers.

I think that finding information about barge traffic and SSN usage might be very helpful in figuring out what happened to Dermot. I wish that I had a connection to the Army Corps of Engineers. I think that they would be the ones who would have barge records. If a barge did pick him up, however, it might not have been recorded on a log since he wouldn't have been a person who was supposed to be on the barge (the pilot and crew might have gotten in trouble). But, we might be able to find the names of people on the barges. They might be willing to talk about whether or not someone was picked up, and/or whether or not they saw anything on the banks as they traveled through that area.

 

[Cubby]

Snipped by me

Anyone who works for a company that issues credit cards or runs credit reports can search his SSN. Many years ago, I used to work for a department store chain's credit department. We ran SSNs all the time, and occasionally, we would find a SSN that "belonged" to more than one person. In these cases, it was usually people who bought SSNs (people who are here illegally will do this). We could see where the number originated-for example, the first three numbers of a SSN indicate the region of the country in which a person was born and issued the number. Mine starts with 55, which indicates California; my husband's starts with 47, which indicates Iowa. We could also see the year the number was issued and the name of the person to whom the number belonged.

If his number has been used since his disappearance, it might be possible to track down the user; however, it might turn out to be someone who bought the number illegally.

Anyone who is legally authorized to run credit reports can run a SSN to get this info.

I think it is currently against the law to run someone's SSN without the persons written permission. I know that to be the case with my sons Godfather who has been in the mortgage industry since the 90's. Whenever he runs a credit report, he has to have the persons written permission or can face a whole lot of legal trouble.

I'm sure LE can run Dermot's SSN and I'm sure they already have. though, who knows when it was last run, or if Dermot had an SSN. It wasn't until the 1990's? that I recall parents needed an SSN for their children to claim an exemption with the IRS.

Back in the 1970's people did not apply for a SSN until they were going to seek employment. It's possible Dermot had not yet applied for a SSN at the time of his disappearance. If I had to guess, Dermot's family situation was not one where the teens would have a need to be employed while still students.

ETA: And there has never been any information to indicate Dermot held a part time job while still a student.

 

[McSpy]

I think it is currently against the law to run someone's SSN without the persons written permission. I know that to be the case with my sons Godfather who has been in the mortgage industry since the 90's. Whenever he runs a credit report, he has to have the persons written permission or can face a whole lot of legal trouble.

I'm sure LE can run Dermot's SSN and I'm sure they already have. though, who knows when it was last run, or if Dermot had an SSN. It wasn't until the 1990's? that I recall parents needed an SSN for their children to claim an exemption with the IRS.

Back in the 1970's people did not apply for a SSN until they were going to seek employment. It's possible Dermot had not yet applied for a SSN at the time of his disappearance. If I had to guess, Dermot's family situation was not one where the teens would have a need to be employed while still students.

ETA: And there has never been any information to indicate Dermot held a part time job while still a student.

Good point! I didn't get a SS number until I was 16 years old back in the early 70s and it was because I wanted to search for a part-time job.

 

[kline]

This terrifies me. PLEASE DON'T LET IT BE DERMOT!!!! Guys, it's very very hard emotionally to look at the picture and out of focus. It is very painful for me to even write this. Truthfully, I do not think it is him. However, that photo is to hard for me to talk about.

Satch

Yes it is an upsetting picture to look at.
I didnt realize that Dermot was that tall,I doubt the boy shackled in that photo is that tall(though its hard to discern from the weird angle.)
The hair is simular if it had grown out alittle from the well known photo of Dermot but in the early 70's two thirds of the teen age boys(myself included) in the world had hair just like that.
I sincerly hope it isnt Dermot.
Corll,according to David Brooks picked up hitchikers and reportedly picked up one in 1972 that he kept alive for four days before killing.
That boy's identity has never been established.

 

[Satch]

Hi Everybody,

I just wanted to share that I grew up in the 60's-70's and like Dermot loved music, and I just happened to be listening to the rock band, The Who's, "Behind Blue Eyes." and I am crying as I listen to it on You Tube. Do a search for it on You Tube, and make sure that you get the original version by '"The Who" with the lyrics and listen to them. WOW! I think this is "the message" that Dermot would have sent or may have sent to his parents before he left, if they had only taken the time to listen to what he had to say. I was just blown away by this songs vivid emotional power in relation to Dermot's case.

Actually, I am going to post the link here to make sure you get the right version, because there are other versions of the song that are not as good. I can see why Dermot may have loved music so much! Here is the link:

The Who- Behind Blue Eyes Lyrics - YouTube

Mods, you can remove the link if this is a TOS issue. Note that I don't own the channel, but I think this song is so fitting to what we know and have learned about Dermot's life that I just had to share it.

Satch

 

[kline]

Hi Everybody,

I just wanted to share that I grew up in the 60's-70's and like Dermot loved music, and I just happened to be listening to the rock band, The Who's, "Behind Blue Eyes." and I am crying as I listen to it on You Tube. Do a search for it on You Tube, and make sure that you get the original version by '"The Who" with the lyrics and listen to them. WOW! I think this is "the message" that Dermot would have sent or may have sent to his parents before he left, if they had only taken the time to listen to what he had to say. I was just blown away by this songs vivid emotional power in relation to Dermot's case.

Actually, I am going to post the link here to make sure you get the right version, because there are other versions of the song that are not as good. I can see why Dermot may have loved music so much! Here is the link:

The Who- Behind Blue Eyes Lyrics - YouTube

Mods, you can remove the link if this is a TOS issue. Note that I don't own the channel, but I think this song is so fitting to what we know and have learned about Dermot's life that I just had to share it.

Satch

Thanks for posting that.
I love The Who and that song is one of the best.
One of the first few I learned to play back in the late 70's.
Its from the album 'Who's Next' which was released in 1971 so Dermot probably heard this song.

 

[Satch]

Great idea's and discussions everyone. On the staging his disappearance and being picked up by a commercial vessel thoughts..... If DK's hospitalization was more along the lines of non conformist, it's possible he met other patients with the same mind set near the same age. It would be interesting to know if he maintained contact with any after being discharged and who they were.

IIRC his disappearance was 3-4 months after his hospitalization, which I recall being mentioned as only earlier in the school year. I guessed that to be Sept/Oct but it could have been any time before the Christmas holiday break.

I also want to add that IF Dermot was hospitalized or an in-patient for "non-conforming" behavior problems, something tells me that in his mind, that was 'The Straw That Broke The Camel's Back." He was smart enough to know that going for this type of treatment was cruel and inhumane. Something tells me that if Dermot was "treated?" in this way, is was totally the father's insistence, and for Dermot, he felt that the conflicts that he experienced were not only at home and at school in relation to the type of life HE wanted to lead. I think he felt there's just no way in hell that his family life, which he probably perceived as a , is going to get any better. What changed for the worse, as far as Dermot was concerned, was the outside forces of everyone at home, school, and if Dermot was treated for non-conformity, the medical practitioners, agreeing with the parents.

It would be interesting to note why Dermot picked that day, January 30, 1972, and time, between 1:15-1:30pm to leave. My guess is that he began planning this at the hospital, IF he was there for "Conforming Therapy." Even if he wasn't there for that type of treatment, I don't think he would want to do it around Thanksgiving or Christmas, because relatives would be around, and a lot of questions would be asked, and Dermot may not have wanted a lot of questions asked. I think that he may have felt very guilty, like he was the "Back Sheep of the family." And something tells me that in the Kelly family, they created a "Norman Rockwell" portrait for the relatives around the holidays, where as I posted before, the real truth of the conflict in the family was behind closed doors. Dermot knew damn well that the family would be able to "mask" the holidays." However, I think maybe he thought "masked" happiness, might have been better than the struggles in his daily life. I believe that a very important reason why he left was to save his family from shame as much as possible, but also to get some peace and tranquility in his own life. Leaving the family was almost not an option for Dermot, it was a requirement for him to get any chance of peace and happiness.

Even if Dermot was NOT hospitalized for conforming issues, most anything else, such as a physical ailment would be something that he could recover from. If conformity was the name of the game for the parents, school, and the hospital treatments, it's really hard to see what else Dermot could have done to gain a better life for himself in that type of environment. And if the reports of abuse in the marriage and the father being hot-tempered are true, this kind and considerate young man, looking for belonging, empathy, and love for a value system that was closer to his own, knew that for too many times in that home their was anxiety, fear, and pain. Both emotional and possible physical abuse.

And for Dermot, he may have even had moments of outward anger, even though most of his rebellion I believe was inner. However, even if he kept all of his feelings inside of him, I think his insides probably shook so much that emotionally he could have become terrified by staying in that home. Maybe in hindsight, he did the right thing by leaving. Sadly, to not know where he is, that is the most painful for so many of us. Those studying the case, the family members, and of course Dermot himself! All these ideas and issues are very important.

I think if Dermot is still out there and knew about the care and concern for his case here at WS, he would be very grateful for our help! He might even say if he had a sense of humor, "Thanks all, there's more concern for me in the pages of this thread than in the almost seventeen years I lived at home."

For you math guys out there, if the air temperature was 12 above zero the day Dermot disappeared, what would be the approximate temperature of the water in the Vermillion River? How long could a person survive in it given that air temperature?

I have moved up the hypothermia/drowning percentage in terms of what happened to Dermot to:

40% hypothermia/drowning
35% left successfully to start new life
25% suicide

Satch

 

[Satch]

Hi All,

This is a thread where Dermot was compared by WS posters to a UID in a California suburb where a body that sort of looked like Dermot was found in November of 1972 However the age range is off, with the decedent listed at about 18-25 and about 25" heavier than Dermot. The UID had scars too. Dermot was not know to have scars at the time he left home. What is interesting about this thread, is this is the post, where a user who claimed her Mother was Dermot's brother talked a little bit about the problems in the family, and where everyone (on the Mother's side) believes Dermot ran away to join the hippie movement:

There was once a picture of the decedent with the links, but it has been removed. I was able to link to Dermot's main thread here, because some were asking about updates in Dermot's case. I posted about the new information we have learned:

CA CA - Hacienda Heights - White Male 865UMCA, 18-25, Nov 1972 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I just wanted everyone to see this old information so that we could keep it in this current thread in which we have been posting. Hope this helps!

Satch

 

[Satch]

In the coming days, I am going to try to do some research on the hippie movement and any origin information. I wanted to start out with the name "Dermot." I found a great website that talkers about the meaning of names. "Dermot" is not a common name in the United States, but has strong Irish connections. Look at the meaning: WOW!

Origin of the name Dermot:

Anglicized form of the Irish Diarmiad (without injunction, a freeman). Diarmaid is a compound name composed of the elements di (without) and airmit (injunction).

"Without Injunction. A Free Man!" I was shocked at how that definition seems to describe Dermot himself!

Taken from:

http://www.babynamewizard.com/namipedia/boy/dermot

Satch

 

[McSpy]

I also want to add that IF Dermot was hospitalized or an in-patient for "non-conforming" behavior problems, something tells me that in his mind, that was 'The Straw That Broke The Camel's Back." He was smart enough to know that going for this type of treatment was cruel and inhumane. Something tells me that if Dermot was "treated?" in this way, is was totally the father's insistence, and for Dermot, he felt that the conflicts that he experienced were not only at home and at school in relation to the type of life HE wanted to lead. I think he felt there's just no way in hell that his family life, which he probably perceived as a , is going to get any better. What changed for the worse, as far as Dermot was concerned, was the outside forces of everyone at home, school, and if Dermot was treated for non-conformity, the medical practitioners, agreeing with the parents.

It would be interesting to note why Dermot picked that day, January 30, 1972, and time, between 1:15-1:30pm to leave. My guess is that he began planning this at the hospital, IF he was there for "Conforming Therapy." Even if he wasn't there for that type of treatment, I don't think he would want to do it around Thanksgiving or Christmas, because relatives would be around, and a lot of questions would be asked, and Dermot may not have wanted a lot of questions asked. I think that he may have felt very guilty, like he was the "Back Sheep of the family." And something tells me that in the Kelly family, they created a "Norman Rockwell" portrait for the relatives around the holidays, where as I posted before, the real truth of the conflict in the family was behind closed doors. Dermot knew damn well that the family would be able to "mask" the holidays." However, I think maybe he thought "masked" happiness, might have been better than the struggles in his daily life. I believe that a very important reason why he left was to save his family from shame as much as possible, but also to get some peace and tranquility in his own life. Leaving the family was almost not an option for Dermot, it was a requirement for him to get any chance of peace and happiness.

Even if Dermot was NOT hospitalized for conforming issues, most anything else, such as a physical ailment would be something that he could recover from. If conformity was the name of the game for the parents, school, and the hospital treatments, it's really hard to see what else Dermot could have done to gain a better life for himself in that type of environment. And if the reports of abuse in the marriage and the father being hot-tempered are true, this kind and considerate young man, looking for belonging, empathy, and love for a value system that was closer to his own, knew that for too many times in that home their was anxiety, fear, and pain. Both emotional and possible physical abuse.

And for Dermot, he may have even had moments of outward anger, even though most of his rebellion I believe was inner. However, even if he kept all of his feelings inside of him, I think his insides probably shook so much that emotionally he could have become terrified by staying in that home. Maybe in hindsight, he did the right thing by leaving. Sadly, to not know where he is, that is the most painful for so many of us. Those studying the case, the family members, and of course Dermot himself! All these ideas and issues are very important.

I think if Dermot is still out there and knew about the care and concern for his case here at WS, he would be very grateful for our help! He might even say if he had a sense of humor, "Thanks all, there's more concern for me in the pages of this thread than in the almost seventeen years I lived at home."

For you math guys out there, if the air temperature was 12 above zero the day Dermot disappeared, what would be the approximate temperature of the water in the Vermillion River? How long could a person survive in it given that air temperature?

I have moved up the hypothermia/drowning percentage in terms of what happened to Dermot to:

40% hypothermia/drowning
35% left successfully to start new life
25% suicide

Satch

In 12 degrees air temps, he would have suffered hypothermia right away. The river had ice along the banks, so the water was very, very cold. It was well into winter too. I found this link to back up my thinking on the subject:

Hypothermia most often occurs because of prolonged exposure to cold weather. Inadequate clothing for conditions may not provide enough insulation for the body to prevent heat loss. Immersion in water hastens hypothermia, and just a few minutes in cold water may be fatal.

http://www.medicinenet.com/hypothermia/page2.htm

 

[McSpy]

In the coming days, I am going to try to do some research on the hippie movement and any origin information. I wanted to start out with the name "Dermot." I found a great website that talkers about the meaning of names. "Dermot" is not a common name in the United States, but has strong Irish connections. Look at the meaning: WOW!

Origin of the name Dermot:

Anglicized form of the Irish Diarmiad (without injunction, a freeman). Diarmaid is a compound name composed of the elements di (without) and airmit (injunction).

"Without Injunction. A Free Man!" I was shocked at how that definition seems to describe Dermot himself!

Taken from:

http://www.babynamewizard.com/namipedia/boy/dermot

Satch

I did a google search on "Dermot Kelly" and found many Dermot Kellys in the world. I wonder if it was a grandfather's name on the Kelly side in Dermot's family? This is usually how the name is passed from generation to generation. There is an Irish naming tradition, which was pretty precise back in the olden days, but in recent decades not used so much anymore.

 

[Satch]

In 12 degrees air temps, he would have suffered hypothermia right away. The river had ice along the banks, so the water was very, very cold. It was well into winter too. I found this link to back up my thinking on the subject:

Hypothermia most often occurs because of prolonged exposure to cold weather. Inadequate clothing for conditions may not provide enough insulation for the body to prevent heat loss. Immersion in water hastens hypothermia, and just a few minutes in cold water may be fatal.

http://www.medicinenet.com/hypothermia/page2.htm

Thanks for the information,

I am leaning more toward a tragic hypothermia and death situation because of the weather and the emotional pain and anxiety in Dermot's life at that time. Until we get evidence of somehow Dermot making connections to be picked up by a vessel or something, with a change of clothes planned, that is the only way that IMO he could still be out there. I agree with Cubby's view after reading up on hypothermia myself.

McSpy, do you think so as well? I think Dermot was so deep in thought and sad over several MONTHS in planning his new life that he went to the river to meditate. With him being a very emotional person with so much pain inside of him, he may have just sat on the bank with his rifle bawling his eyes out for a very long time and thinking. With someone in that much emotional turmoil, the last thing on Dermot's mind is going to be the weather. He became disoriented, starting taking off his clothing due to feeling over heated because of hypothermia, and either went towards the water accidentally or purposely. He may have been too down emotionally to save himself. And I also read that when people take off their clothes due to hypothermia, they often rip at them in an angry kind of way. Dermot had a great deal of inner-rebellion, so all of these factors could have hastened the process.

I don't think that Dermot left the house to commit suicide at the river. It is possible that he could have shot himself and fell in the river due to the affects of hypothermia. Sort of an accidental suicide or drowning. The weather played with his mind set, which was in tons of pain, probably from the time Dermot had his "Conversion Therapy" till that tragic day, January, 30, 1972.

I think Dermot would have the street smarts and intellect to stage a death scene, but could he do that in such pain with his insides shaking? He was likely a brilliant planner, writer, and putting things to paper, but there's no evidence that he was athletic, physically strong in crisis situations. I put the percent of successfully living a little higher than some would, maybe because of false optimism. Dermot's life in living and disappearing reminds me of the end of the movie 'Escape From Alcatraz" where the two prisoners who escaped were never found. I think for Dermot, he felt that his home life was like a prison, very painful for him.

Here is the one big $64000 Question:

Why would Dermot's rife be found in the water with no sign of Dermot? If his body was washed away, wouldn't the rife be just as far away as his body? That is the one hold out, where IF some vessel picked him up, or he just hopped a freight somewhere, where he could have survived that day.

I also checked the weather post again. The high was 12 degrees, the average was 7 degrees, with about a 1.5 mile walking distance between Dermot's home and the river:

On January 30th, 1972, the closest available weather station to Ogles by, IL (PEORIA GREATER PEORIA AP, IL), reported the following conditions:


High Temp: 12.9F
Low Temp: 0F
Average Temp: 7.2F
Dewpoint: -1.4F
Wind Speed: 8.3 Knots
Precipitation Amount: 0 Inches
Snow Depth: n/a
Observations: n/a

Satch

 

[McSpy]

Thanks for the information,

I am leaning more toward a tragic hypothermia and death situation because of the weather and the emotional pain and anxiety in Dermot's life at that time. Until we get evidence of somehow Dermot making connections to be picked up by a vessel or something, with a change of clothes planned, that is the only way that IMO he could still be out there. I agree with Cubby's view after reading up on hypothermia myself.

McSpy, do you think so as well? I think Dermot was so deep in thought and sad over several MONTHS in planning his new life that he went to the river to meditate. With him being a very emotional person with so much pain inside of him, he may have just sat on the bank with his rifle bawling his eyes out for a very long time and thinking. With someone in that much emotional turmoil, the last thing on Dermot's mind is going to be the weather. He became disoriented, starting taking off his clothing due to feeling over heated because of hypothermia, and either went towards the water accidentally or purposely. He may have been too down emotionally to save himself. And I also read that when people take off their clothes due to hypothermia, they often rip at them in an angry kind of way. Dermot had a great deal of inner-rebellion, so all of these factors could have hastened the process.

I don't think that Dermot left the house to commit suicide at the river. It is possible that he could have shot himself and fell in the river due to the affects of hypothermia. Sort of an accidental suicide or drowning. The weather played with his mind set, which was in tons of pain, probably from the time Dermot had his "Conversion Therapy" till that tragic day, January, 30, 1972.

I think Dermot would have the street smarts and intellect to stage a death scene, but could he do that in such pain with his insides shaking? He was likely a brilliant planner, writer, and putting things to paper, but there's no evidence that he was athletic, physically strong in crisis situations. I put the percent of successfully living a little higher than some would, maybe because of false optimism. Dermot's life in living and disappearing reminds me of the end of the movie 'Escape From Alcatraz" where the two prisoners who escaped were never found. I think for Dermot, he felt that his home life was like a prison, very painful for him.

Here is the one big $64000 Question:

Why would Dermot's rife be found in the water with no sign of Dermot? If his body was washed away, wouldn't the rife be just as far away as his body? That is the one hold out, where IF some vessel picked him up, or he just hopped a freight somewhere, where he could have survived that day.

I also checked the weather post again. The high was 12 degrees, the average was 7 degrees, with about a 1.5 mile walking distance between Dermot's home and the river:



Satch

I read that he only had a t-shirt on under his jacket, which was not enough clothing for such low temps that day. He was outside for a while, so it is quite possible he succumbed to the temps. 12 degrees is bone chilling. It is so cold that one cannot get completely comfortable without gloves, face mask, and hat, long underwear, layers, etc. Even with all this coverage, the cold still seeps in to bring discomfort.

I also find the barefoot prints leading to the water and his jacket on the bank troubling. It suggests he took them off to go swimming. When I think about it, when people enter water, they always remove their shoes and jacket. It is something one does when getting ready to enter any water. Usually, most nonessential clothing is removed. It would have been unnecessary if his plan was suicide, but I think it was an automatic response when he got ready to enter the water. Even if one was getting prepared to drown themselves in a bathtube, they would take off their shoes.

IMO, the rifle found nearby is not unusual. Dermot may have got caught in a current, which took him into another direction. Also, if he fell or dove in, his wake could have pushed the rifle under the ice from the force, so it got trapped there. We also don't know if the rifle fell or was thrown in the water before Dermot ended up in the water. I did have a theory that he may have slipped and the rifle ended up in the water, so he stripped his jacket and shoes off to retrieve it, but the water was deeper than he thought, so he got instant hypothermia and was swept away. Maybe he tried fishing it out with a stick and the ice broke from under him. Yet, the 12 degree temps would have been so painful I cannot imagine stripping any clothes off in that situation. Although, we have to remember he was only 16 years old, so even if he was very bright, sometimes kids do stupid things. They think they will live forever. JMO

I apologize if this was discussed already, but are we sure of what kind of therapy Dermot received? Do we know the reason why he had therapy? TIA

 

[McSpy]

Does anyone know how many siblings Dermot had in his family and his birth order? Did he have older siblings, who were very successful?

 

[Satch]

I read that he only had a t-shirt on under his jacket, which was not enough clothing for such low temps that day. He was outside for a while, so it is quite possible he succumbed to the temps. 12 degrees is bone chilling. It is so cold that one cannot get completely comfortable without gloves, face mask, and hat, long underwear, layers, etc. Even with all this coverage, the cold still seeps in to bring discomfort.

I also find the barefoot prints leading to the water and his jacket on the bank troubling. It suggests he took them off to go swimming. When I think about it, when people enter water, they always remove their shoes and jacket. It is something one does when getting ready to enter any water. Usually, most nonessential clothing is removed. It would have been unnecessary if his plan was suicide, but I think it was an automatic response when he got ready to enter the water. Even if one was getting prepared to drown themselves in a bathtube, they would take off their shoes.

IMO, the rifle found nearby is not unusual. Dermot may have got caught in a current, which took him into another direction. Also, if he fell or dove in, his wake could have pushed the rifle under the ice from the force, so it got trapped there. We also don't know if the rifle fell or was thrown in the water before Dermot ended up in the water. I did have a theory that he may have slipped and the rifle ended up in the water, so he stripped his jacket and shoes off to retrieve it, but the water was deeper than he thought, so he got instant hypothermia and was swept away. Maybe he tried fishing it out with a stick and the ice broke from under him. Yet, the 12 degree temps would have been so painful I cannot imagine stripping any clothes off in that situation. Although, we have to remember he was only 16 years old, so even if he was very bright, sometimes kids do stupid things. They think they will live forever. JMO

I apologize if this was discussed already, but are we sure of what kind of therapy Dermot received? Do we know the reason why he had therapy? TIA

Excellent post!

No, the type of theory that Dermot had in the fall of 1971. I wish we could find out, because it would bring more insight to this case! But with the patient-therapist confidentiality issue, this may be very difficult, although not necessarily impossible. The Conversion Theory is believed by many at WS, because of the extreame social and political views of the family and Dermot at the time, along with a seemingly authoritarian father, struggling with great pain. Some believe he may have revealed he was gay, or his Dad found out about it. Many kids were sent to mental health facilities and given very controversial "treatments" such as shock therapy to "correct" gay behavior, which in 1971 was seen as a sickness, a mental illness.

In February of 1972, a Gay-Rights platform was passed by a small margin in Chicago. Dermot's emotional sensitivity, may have been taken by the family as a sign of weakness, especially to his father. Poster Lucy a page or so up, details the strong likelihood of communication discord between father and son, because Kevin Kelly regularly spoke of Dermot not as, "his son", or 'Dermot", but "The Boy." She has some great insight that they saw Dermot as having character flaws, where even his teachers had little criticisms about him. "He's a B student, why can't he get A's?"

I think it got to the point where just about everything Dermot did went against the grain of his home, school, and family life. It got to a point where everything just broke apart around him.

Satch

 

[Satch]

Does anyone know how many siblings Dermot had in his family and his birth order? Did he have older siblings, who were very successful?

I believe Dermot has three sisters and one brother. Two of the sisters are physicians. None refused to be interviewed for Dan's story that contained all the new information about the case, (at least for us.)

I also want to say that I don't intend to make the Kelly's out to be bad parents in everything they did. I think the Dad had some anger-management issues and was very strict. However, if there was family abuse, that was reprehensible and awful. I can say that I know several Conservative, Roman-Catholic people similar to the Kelly family, who grew up to be very successful. And if two siblings became doctors, and success was encouraged, hey that's great for the other family members.

The bad parenting comes from the abuse that Dermot may have suffered from his temperamental father and controversial theory, IF he was treated for non-conformity, and/or "gay issues." Dermot's case is very close to me because he wasn't a bad kid, he was a good student, he listened, he was kind, caring, and empathic. Those sensitivity issues are what draw me to this case, because all the evidence shows that this was a gentle and caring person, no drugs, no alcohol. Remove the abuse factor that happened from time to time, and maybe things could have been better.

The point being that what worked for the sisters, (don't know about the other brother) didn't work for Dermot. Remember that Dermot's Dad was in his 60's when this happened. I also understand he was in the military, and we know that 'Dad" was temper mental. This is not a person that is going to understand an introverted, shy, emotional teenager. Maybe the other family members had more of the parents views, leading to their success. I think Dermot should have been praised more for his academic success and empathetic qualities! If the family would have listened and cared more, this whole tragedy could have been prevented.

I would love to know the birth order of the Kelly children and Dermot's relationship and views towards them growing up.

Satch

 

[McSpy]

Excellent post!

No, the type of theory that Dermot had in the fall of 1971. I wish we could find out, because it would bring more insight to this case! But with the patient-therapist confidentiality issue, this may be very difficult, although not necessarily impossible. The Conversion Theory is believed by many at WS, because of the extreame social and political views of the family and Dermot at the time, along with a seemingly authoritarian father, struggling with great pain. Some believe he may have revealed he was gay, or his Dad found out about it. Many kids were sent to mental health facilities and given very controversial "treatments" such as shock therapy to "correct" gay behavior, which in 1971 was seen as a sickness, a mental illness.

In February of 1972, a Gay-Rights platform was passed by a small margin in Chicago. Dermot's emotional sensitivity, may have been taken by the family as a sign of weakness, especially to his father. Poster Lucy a page or so up, details the strong likelihood of communication discord between father and son, because Kevin Kelly regularly spoke of Dermot not as, "his son", or 'Dermot", but "The Boy." She has some great insight that they saw Dermot as having character flaws, where even his teachers had little criticisms about him. "He's a B student, why can't he get A's?"

I think it got to the point where just about everything Dermot did went against the grain of his home, school, and family life. It got to a point where everything just broke apart around him.

Satch

This makes sense, especially if he was in the treatment program for a month, which probably felt like an eternity to a 16 year old. Was it possible he was only clinically depressed and the parents were at their wits end on what to do about it? Although, I do think it was possible he was gay and with his 60 year old dad as a veteran, it looks like they wouldn't mesh well. His dad was born around 1910. Quite the generation gap. Dermot probably disappointed his dad and his dad showed it. JMO

 

[McSpy]

I believe Dermot has three sisters and one brother. Two of the sisters are physicians. None refused to be interviewed for Dan's story that contained all the new information about the case, (at least for us.)

I also want to say that I don't intend to make the Kelly's out to be bad parents in everything they did. I think the Dad had some anger-management issues and was very strict. However, if there was family abuse, that was reprehensible and awful. I can say that I know several Conservative, Roman-Catholic people similar to the Kelly family, who grew up to be very successful. And if two siblings became doctors, and success was encouraged, hey that's great for the other family members.

The bad parenting comes from the abuse that Dermot may have suffered from his temperamental father and controversial theory, IF he was treated for non-conformity, and/or "gay issues." Dermot's case is very close to me because he wasn't a bad kid, he was a good student, he listened, he was kind, caring, and empathic. Those sensitivity issues are what draw me to this case, because all the evidence shows that this was a gentle and caring person, no drugs, no alcohol. Remove the abuse factor that happened from time to time, and maybe things could have been better.

The point being that what worked for the sisters, (don't know about the other brother) didn't work for Dermot. Remember that Dermot's Dad was in his 60's when this happened. I also understand he was in the military, and we know that 'Dad" was temper mental. This is not a person that is going to understand an introverted, shy, emotional teenager. Maybe the other family members had more of the parents views, leading to their success. I think Dermot should have been praised more for his academic success and empathetic qualities! If the family would have listened and cared more, this whole tragedy could have been prevented.

I would love to know the birth order of the Kelly children and Dermot's relationship and views towards them growing up.

Satch

I hear ya. I think sometimes parents believe they are guiding their offspring, but their approach may not work on certain children. It actually makes the situation worse. Dermot's siblings may have handled Mr. Kelly's wrath better, but it was probably too heavy handed for Dermot's temperament. My dad was similar to Mr. Kelly in certain ways, but his treatment of me was similar to all of my closest (age) siblings. We had each other to vent and empathize with, which helped us heal. We were all in the same boat. We actually came to each others aid after our dad took a fit on one of us. Maybe, Dermot was singled out by his dad or he wasn't close with his siblings, or perhaps, he wasn't close in age with them, so there was a disconnect. Maybe, Dermot didn't have anyone to talk to or lean on when things got rough. JMO

 

[Satch]

I believe Dermot has three sisters and one brother. Two of the sisters are physicians. None refused to be interviewed for Dan's story that contained all the new information about the case, (at least for us.)

I also want to say that I don't intend to make the Kelly's out to be bad parents in everything they did. I think the Dad had some anger-management issues and was very strict. However, if there was family abuse, that was reprehensible and awful. I can say that I know several Conservative, Roman-Catholic people similar to the Kelly family, who grew up to be very successful. And if two siblings became doctors, and success was encouraged, hey that's great for the other family members.

The bad parenting comes from the abuse that Dermot may have suffered from his temperamental father and controversial theory, IF he was treated for non-conformity, and/or "gay issues." Dermot's case is very close to me because he wasn't a bad kid, he was a good student, he listened, he was kind, caring, and empathic. Those sensitivity issues are what draw me to this case, because all the evidence shows that this was a gentle and caring person, no drugs, no alcohol. Remove the abuse factor that happened from time to time, and maybe things could have been better.

The point being that what worked for the sisters, (don't know about the other brother) didn't work for Dermot. Remember that Dermot's Dad was in his 60's when this happened. I also understand he was in the military, and we know that 'Dad" was temper mental. This is not a person that is going to understand an introverted, shy, emotional teenager. Maybe the other family members had more of the parents views, leading to their success. I think Dermot should have been praised more for his academic success and empathetic qualities! If the family would have listened and cared more, this whole tragedy could have been prevented.

I would love to know the birth order of the Kelly children and Dermot's relationship and views towards them growing up.

Satch

Correction: Quote above should say with regard to Dermot's brother and sister's. "They refused to be interviewed for Dan's story."

Satch

PS. Based on further evidence in studying how bitter cold the weather was and Dermot's waking distance in it, (about 1.5 miles each way) I would have to now say there is no way he could have survived if he went into the water. The hypothermia caused him to think he was over-heated, "Going swimming to cool off." The affects of hypothermia were probably evident before Dermot even got to the river on such a cold day. I am now up to the following percents:

75% hypothermia/drowning
20% suicide
5% lived successfully through this.

Sadly, in previous research I had forgotten how cold 7 above really is, and walking with only a T-shirt under a jacket.