GUILTY IL - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, in suitcase in Bali, 12 Aug 2014 *fnd guilty in Bali* #6

[SouthAussie]

It’s a federal crime to kill a U.S. citizen abroad, said Barbara McQuade, a University of Michigan law professor and former U.S. attorney in Detroit.

McQuade predicted that a double jeopardy claim will be a losing argument.

She noted the 1993 trial of two Los Angeles police officers who were convicted of federal civil rights violations in the beating of Black motorist Rodney King. It came a year after the officers were cleared of state crimes arising from the same attack.

In Minneapolis, former police officer Derek Chauvin is facing federal civil rights charges in the 2020 death of George Floyd, while already serving a 22 1/2-year state prison sentence for Floyd’s murder.

In Mack's case, McQuade said it's possible that a judge might give her some credit for time spent in prison overseas if she's convicted in Chicago.
“Maybe a judge is very sympathetic and says, 'She's guilty but I'm not giving her any more time, seven years is enough.'

Seven years strikes me as quite lenient for a carefully plotted murder of a U.S. citizen,” McQuade said.

EXPLAINER: Expert: Overseas conviction no bar to US charges

 

[otto]

Criminal complaint against co-conspirator Bibbs with potential evidence against Heather under the US charges:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/file/777641/download

Link to 2017 Chicago indictment that doesn't require wading through news sites/paywalls:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1446126/download

I wonder if the FBI ever managed to unlock Heather's phone, since that was an issue at the time of the 2017 indictment.

Thank you for posting these documents. The first certainly outlines evidence of the conspiracy to commit murder for financial gain that started months before the murder and was acted on in Bali. There's no doubt that Schaefer went to Bali for the sole purpose of assisting Mack with the murder. Mack and Schaefer believed that they would be rich after committing the murder.

 

[otto]

It’s a federal crime to kill a U.S. citizen abroad, said Barbara McQuade, a University of Michigan law professor and former U.S. attorney in Detroit.

McQuade predicted that a double jeopardy claim will be a losing argument.

She noted the 1993 trial of two Los Angeles police officers who were convicted of federal civil rights violations in the beating of Black motorist Rodney King. It came a year after the officers were cleared of state crimes arising from the same attack.

In Minneapolis, former police officer Derek Chauvin is facing federal civil rights charges in the 2020 death of George Floyd, while already serving a 22 1/2-year state prison sentence for Floyd’s murder.

In Mack's case, McQuade said it's possible that a judge might give her some credit for time spent in prison overseas if she's convicted in Chicago.
“Maybe a judge is very sympathetic and says, 'She's guilty but I'm not giving her any more time, seven years is enough.'

Seven years strikes me as quite lenient for a carefully plotted murder of a U.S. citizen,” McQuade said.

EXPLAINER: Expert: Overseas conviction no bar to US charges

I don't think that double jeopardy comes into play. In Bali, they were both charged with premeditated murder. The courts believed that Schaefer was the mastermind and Mack merely helped.

Schaefer and Mack are now charged with conspiracy in the USA to commit the murder of a USA citizen in a foreign country. That's a different charge than committing the murder.

 

[otto]

At least KW has been able to Skype with her granddaughter. There’s a hearing for her emergency guardian request next week.

Kia Walker wants custody of granddaughter after Heather Mack arrested again in mother's murder

Mack cannot use the argument that Schaefer is a murderer and therefore his mother should not have custody. I'm wondering what arguments Mack will use to deny the grandmother visitation or temporary custody?

 

[SouthAussie]

I don't think that double jeopardy comes into play. In Bali, they were both charged with premeditated murder. The courts believed that Schaefer was the mastermind and Mack merely helped.

Schaefer and Mack are now charged with conspiracy in the USA to commit the murder of a USA citizen in a foreign country. That's a different charge than committing the murder.

I think that most us don't think it applies. I posted that expert opinion because HM's CA lawyer says he is going to contest HM's arrest with double jeopardy laws.

 

[otto]

I think that most us don't think it applies. I posted that expert opinion because HM's CA lawyer says he is going to contest HM's arrest with double jeopardy laws.

I think the lawyer is all talk. He's probably telling Mack the same nonsense. Mack should be able to see that these are new charges and that a conviction for murder does not means she cannot be found guilty for conspiring to commit murder in a foreign country. She needs a lawyer in Chicago who can understand the charges.

 

[gitana1]

When HM was first arrested, she contacted a young Chicago lawyer named Michael Elkin that I believe she had met at a party. He was retained and flew to Bali, bringing VF with him to represent the unborn child. The two of them handled things for HM and I believe helped hook her up with an attorney in Bali. They also represented HM in the Cook County probate court for a while until ME eventually bowed out and VF seemed to continue to attend the hearings on HM’s behalf until the final agreement that moved the rest of the estate into a trust for Stella.

HM has always had funds and a cell phone while in prison so she’s always been able to stay in touch with all the lawyers that have worked for her over the years.

MOO

Thanks so much! I appreciate the info.

 

[gitana1]

HM solicited the 'hit' and offered to pay for it. She did pony up $12K of her mother's money to fly TS to Indonesia to do the deed.

I think that in some jurisdictions in the US, that would make her just as guilty as TS of murder.

Pretty much every jurisdiction. I think!

 

[gitana1]

This is what should have happened for Stella as soon as she was born. Since she was registered as a US citizen, she should have been removed from HM’s custody and sent back to the US to be adopted and raised by a completely anonymous family with no one having access to the trust and having it turned over to her when she is 30.

MOO

Agreed. What the Indonesians and the American probate judge allowed in this case was a travesty. It really harmed the child.

First she was raised for two years in prison with her insane mother. Then she was yanked away from there and given to a questionable family who have either a suspect sympathy for evil Heather or a greedy eye on SM’s trust fund monies.

Regardless, she then spends four years with them and sees her mother and now she’s taken from the only nation she’s known and will undoubtedly be removed from that family’s care and probably have no contact or exceedingly limited contact with HM.

And her mother chose to parade her through the airports instead of taking the FBI’s advice and making separate arrangements for her to come here. So now her image is everywhere.

Ugh. Poor kid.

 

[gitana1]

From what I can find from old articles, it looks like Mack and Schaefer were charged with premeditated murder in Bali. I can't find any Bali charges related to conspiracy to commit murder while in the USA.

Why is the LA lawyer making so much noise about double jeopardy when Mack is facing new charges related to actions in Chicago?

"The charge of premeditated murder carries a maximum penalty of death. But the court said it decided to be lenient toward Mack, of Chicago, because she gave birth to the couple’s daughter, Stella, last month.

As for Schaefer, presiding Judge Made Suweda described his crime as “sadistic” but said the defendant’s politeness and expression of remorse during the trial warranted that the Oak Park resident be spared a harsher sentence."
​

APRIL 21, 2015
Victim's family disappointed by sentences for Mack, boyfriend in Bali killing

Double jeopardy shouldn’t apply at all. Even if she was charged with substantially the same crime as is now being charged. Unless, according to Wikipedia, there’s some sort of treaty between Indonesia and the US that incorporates the principle.

“Double jeopardy is not a principle of international law. It does not apply between different countries, unless having been contractually agreed on between those countries as, for example, in the European Union (Art. 54 Schengen Convention), and in various extradition treaties between two countries.”
Double jeopardy - Wikipedia

 

[gitana1]

There is a lot more money than that.

Oh gosh! I hadn’t even thought about the trust fund!

 

[gitana1]

I don't think that double jeopardy comes into play. In Bali, they were both charged with premeditated murder. The courts believed that Schaefer was the mastermind and Mack merely helped.

Schaefer and Mack are now charged with conspiracy in the USA to commit the murder of a USA citizen in a foreign country. That's a different charge than committing the murder.

Yes but double jeopardy comes into play when a crime can fit within another crimes. So lesser includeds can spark double jeopardy.

 

[Niner]

Anyone know "when" the visitation hearing for the grandmother is next week? Same day as Mack's detention hearing 11/10?

TIA!

 

[Sjm_qc]

Well, well, well. I haven’t commented here in years but have kept up from time to time. I don’t think I ever really believed that the US authorities would actually arrest HM on her return (although I was always pretty sure she’d get an early release from Indonesia).

If it’s true that Oshar travelled to the US with H & S, that’s a good thing IMO: she’s been S’s mother figure for most of her life and can provide at least a little temporary stability for her in the mess HM has brought her back to.

Again IMO, I’m not so sure that Heather was blindsided by her arrest right off the plane. I think that bringing Oshar with them (if true) to the US was planned for precisely this scenario. I suspect/speculate that they have something up their sleeve regarding custody or legal guardianship of Stella: speculatively, VERY speculatively, possibly a way for Stella to go back to Bali . I think HM would strenuously oppose any attempt by Kia to get custody or guardianship, and argue that Oshar is best placed to care for the child (which, whatever we think of O’s original motives for getting involved, *might* actually be the best for her at this point).

 

[BUF]

At least KW has been able to Skype with her granddaughter. There’s a hearing for her emergency guardian request next week.

Kia Walker wants custody of granddaughter after Heather Mack arrested again in mother's murder

I hope the placement of this child does not go on endlessly, but am skeptical due to Favia’s involvement and what has transpired. In 6 years, she has been exposed to way too much and will remember. She deserves an opportunity at a normal life in a loving environment. When I hear a statement like calling her father “dangerous daddy” I cringe. What about “dangerous mommy”?

Days after release from prison overseas, Heather Mack faces new reality, pleads not guilty to federal charges related to gruesome 2014 killing of her mother

Walker said Stella must know something about her parents’ case because during one video call with the girl, Stella referred to Schaefer as “dangerous daddy.”

“It’s sad. It’s really sad,” Walker said. “She shouldn’t know anything. Not right now.”

 

[elliefant]

Poor Stella. The authorities, albeit manipulated by HM & team, just kicked the can down the road when she was born & when she was fostered. And Stella is the one who pays the price for that, with no chance a of a normal secure childhood then - or now, especially with bonds having being made, other bonds denied, and it all having been delayed by the kicking of the can for so long that she is aware of it all.

 

[Sjm_qc]

This is what should have happened for Stella as soon as she was born. Since she was registered as a US citizen, she should have been removed from HM’s custody and sent back to the US to be adopted and raised by a completely anonymous family with no one having access to the trust and having it turned over to her when she is 30.

MOO

Whatever we may think about it, this is not how the Law works, in both/either jurisdiction (possibly) relevant to S.

JMO, speculation, etc.

At the time of her birth, until now, S was under the jurisdiction of Indonesian courts and law because that is where she was habitually resident since birth. Citizenship is not (or very rarely) a factor.

The phrase I’ve bolded is really important under both US & Indonesian law.

No one other than Heather & Indonesian court system had any say in the care/fostering arrangements for S up until a couple of days ago when they both set foot back on US soil.

Even now, with them both back in the US, even under arrest, Heather still gets to call at least some of the shots regarding S’s care/guardianship, etc in front of US family court.

I could putatively, speculatively, see Heather & Favia making an argument in the US courts for official & legal guardianship to go to Oshar, and then that being used for & by O to get official & legal permission for her to take S back to Bali.

Kia or any other family members on whichever side likely have a very uphill battle as far as who gets to foster/take care of S.

 

[gitana1]

Whatever we may think about it, this is not how the Law works, in both/either jurisdiction (possibly) relevant to S.

JMO, speculation, etc.

At the time of her birth, until now, S was under the jurisdiction of Indonesian courts and law because that is where she was habitually resident since birth. Citizenship is not (or very rarely) a factor.

The phrase I’ve bolded is really important under both US & Indonesian law.

No one other than Heather & Indonesian court system had any say in the care/fostering arrangements for S up until a couple of days ago when they both set foot back on US soil.

Even now, with them both back in the US, even under arrest, Heather still gets to call at least some of the shots regarding S’s care/guardianship, etc in front of US family court.

I could putatively, speculatively, see Heather & Favia making an argument in the US courts for official & legal guardianship to go to Oshar, and then that being used for & by O to get official & legal permission for her to take S back to Bali.

Kia or any other family members on whichever side likely have a very uphill battle as far as who gets to foster/take care of S.

No. The US authorities didn’t have jurisdiction to decide anything regarding the child. Until now. But a judge did have the option not to give Heather Mack $150,000.00 to spend on a corrupt judicial system over there- a sum which undoubtedly enabled her to get a ridiculously low sentence and get out early.

Moreover, in the states, the father gets a say as well. However, TS would have to file a parentage action and it appears he and his mother lack the funds, team and cunning that HM has, in order to do so.

That being said, in the states, guardianship decisions involve “putative” fathers as well as grandparents. They’re entitled to notice of the proceedings and a voice in the proceedings.

I don’t think the court would approve an out of country guardianship either. They’d have little control of the child or the guardian under such a scenario.

 

[BUF]

Guess Claypool had to put that “hatched plan” back in it’s shell. Anyone know who this person is?

Friend of slain Chicago socialite fears Heather Mack's young daughter will be used as pawn for profit

Claypool previously said his team initially hatched a plan for Heather, Oshar and Stella to stay in Los Angeles with a woman named Diana Laroque, who was previously friends with Sheila, but the FBI ordered them to fly into Chicago.

 

[otto]

I hope the placement of this child does not go on endlessly, but am skeptical due to Favia’s involvement and what has transpired. In 6 years, she has been exposed to way too much and will remember. She deserves an opportunity at a normal life in a loving environment. When I hear a statement like calling her father “dangerous daddy” I cringe. What about “dangerous mommy”?

Days after release from prison overseas, Heather Mack faces new reality, pleads not guilty to federal charges related to gruesome 2014 killing of her mother

Walker said Stella must know something about her parents’ case because during one video call with the girl, Stella referred to Schaefer as “dangerous daddy.”

“It’s sad. It’s really sad,” Walker said. “She shouldn’t know anything. Not right now.”

"Dangerous daddy" is an example of Heather Mack living the lies she told in court - that she was the damsel in distress hiding in the bathroom while "dangerous daddy" murdered Sheila due to "racist" remarks and Sheila's wish for the pregnancy to be terminated. That is not true, but that's Mack's story for the courts.

Heather is the truly dangerous mother who violently attacked her mother for years, broke her mother's bones, and schemed to steal her mother's wealth. If Schaefer had any reservations about helping Mack with the murder, the promise of $11 million removed all hesitation.

Walker is right - Mack and the foster mother have told Stella enough information to convince the child that her father is a dangerous man.