Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - #153 *ARREST - Richard Allen*

[Alethea]

Talk to me like I'm 3. Murder section 2 is named felony murder? I thought it was just a section of the murder code.

It's not titled felony murder but it is felony murder. Here's the text of the statute:

35-42-1-1. Murder​

Universal Citation: IN Code § 35-42-1-1 (2021)
Sec. 1. A person who:
(1) knowingly or intentionally kills another human being;
(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct (under IC 35-42-4-2 before its repeal), kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human labor trafficking, promotion of human sexual trafficking, promotion of child sexual trafficking, promotion of sexual trafficking of a younger child, child sexual trafficking, or carjacking (before its repeal);
(3) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit:
(A) dealing in or manufacturing cocaine or a narcotic drug (IC 35-48-4-1);
(B) dealing in methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.1);
(C) manufacturing methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.2);
(D) dealing in a schedule I, II, or III controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-2);
(E) dealing in a schedule IV controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-3); or
(F) dealing in a schedule V controlled substance; or
(4) except as provided in section 6.5 of this chapter, knowingly or intentionally kills a fetus in any stage of development;
commits murder, a felony.

The difference between (1) and (2) is the intent element. So for (1), you have to prove the person knowingly or intentionally killed another person. The traditional defenses to that are that it wasn't intentional, the person snapped, it happened in the heat of passion, or whatever other defenses are allowed in the state.

For (2), this subsection basically defines the traditional legal concept of felony murder. It states that "A person who kills another human being while committing [specific felonies] commits murder." This does not include an intent element - the state does not need to prove intent to kill here.

The point behind felony murder statutes is that the state considers certain violent felonies to be so dangerous and egregious that a reasonable person should know there is a high risk of someone being killed. If you commit one of those dangerous felonies, and someone dies, we're essentially going to infer your intent.

If you set a house on fire (arson) and you didn't realize someone was home and that person dies, even though you did not intend to kill that person, you can be charged under (2) with murder.

If you kidnap a child and put her in the trunk of your car and she dies, even though you didn't intend to kill her, you can be charged under (2) with murder.

In this case, IMO, the state believes they have probable cause to prove at least that RA kidnapped the girls and it resulted in their death so he was charged with felony murder. As the investigation continues the state can always file additional charges. But right now they filed these.

I will say recently I have seen more State AGs file charges and then take their case to a grand jury and come back with additional murder indictments. I think there's a calculation to get a dangerous offender off the street as soon as you believe you have probable cause for the arrest while also wanting the security of an indictment where an independent grand jury concurred with your proof. JMO IMO etc etc

 

[layer]

I don’t think KK is involved in this or involved in finding RA...

Likewise

 

[O.Incandenza]

Talk to me like I'm 3. Murder section 2 is named felony murder? I thought it was just a section of the murder code.

It is just a section of the murder code. But it's what lawyers call 'felony murder' because instead of needing to prove that the defendant intended to kill the victim, prosecutors just need to prove that he intended to commit one of the listed felonies (kidnapping for example) and during the commission of the felony, the victim died.

In lots of places it applies to accomplices as well. For example, if two guys rob a liquor store and one shoots the clerk, his accomplice can be charged with felony murder even though he didn't pull the trigger. It's even been applied to situations where one of the robbers is killed by police after fleeing the scene and his accomplice is charged with his murder, since it occurred during the robbery. I don't know how broadly it's interpreted in Indiana. But it's theoretically possible for RA to be charged with this even if he didn't personally kill Libby and Abby. I don't think that's what happened here because LE is sure acting like he's the main guy. But that's why it's a little interesting.

It could just be that the prosecutor is cautious and doesn't want to have to worry about defense arguments that there was someone else with RA and that person was the actual killer.

Edit: @Alethea beat me to it.

 

[asyousay]

There wouldn't be a rush to charge KK with more charges, he's facing 40 years for CP charges already. There might actually be more charges against KK but curiously his case has been sealed. Also, what are the odds two very sick creeps targeted the girls within 24 hours and they aren't connected?

We don’t know what motivated RA to do this so without that knowledge it’s hard to say.


SA isn’t the only reason people kill!

 

[Alethea]

It is just a section of the murder code. But it's what lawyers call 'felony murder' because instead of needing to prove that the defendant intended to kill the victim, prosecutors just need to prove that he intended to commit one of the listed felonies (kidnapping for example) and during the commission of the felony, the victim died.

In lots of places it applies to accomplices as well. For example, if two guys rob a liquor store and one shoots the clerk, his accomplice can be charged with felony murder even though he didn't pull the trigger. It's even been applied to situations where one of the robbers is killed by police and his accomplice is charged with his murder, since it occurred during the robbery. I don't know how broadly it's interpreted in Indiana. But it's theoretically possible for RA to be charged with this even if he didn't personally kill Libby and Abby. I don't think that's what happened here because LE is sure acting like he's the main guy. But that's why it's a little interesting.

It could just be that the prosecutor is cautious and doesn't want to have to worry about defense arguments that there was someone else with RA and that person was the actual killer.

Edit: @Alethea beat me to it.

This is a good explanation too! My page was glitching for a bit there so I wasn't sure it actually posted.

 

[Carovb5]

When i Googled RA’s name yesterday i kept on getting side by sides of BG & a mugshot that didn’t belong to RA or any other previous persons of interest. It was of a man arrested around the 13th of oktober 2022 in connection with a shooting of a 13yo in Ohio. He looks just like BG, it’s creepy.
Not wanting to speculate or getting off track of the whole RA situation, but wondering:
- in such a high case, it is common that the media messes up mugshots? ( he and RA don’t look alike)
- i couldn’t get the articles open, as i’m not in the US, but did someone see this and can tell me more about it?
- i noticed a lot of you guys wondering if there were going to be more arrests these days regarding Abby & Libby, is it possible that this guy was linked but they can’t yet share?

Unfortunately msm deleted the side by sides & can’t for the moment find links that still work, but i took a screenshot. I guess i can’t share that without working links…

 

[O.Incandenza]

This is a good explanation too! My page was glitching for a bit there so I wasn't sure it actually posted.

Yeah, mine too. I was worried it had disappeared into the ether for a minute there.

 

[m00c0w]

I don’t think KK is involved in this or involved in finding RA. I would think if he was he would have chargers related to the murders on him and he doesn’t. Didn’t get a deal or anything. What makes sense to me is maybe RAs wife found something and turned him in. But I really don’t know.

We don't know that he didn't get a deal, and charges would not be filed if he was given immunity for cooperating (ie if he just sat in a car and just knew material facts, but never actually participated in anything).

 

[SuziQ]

It's not titled felony murder but it is felony murder. Here's the text of the statute:

35-42-1-1. Murder​

Universal Citation: IN Code § 35-42-1-1 (2021)
Sec. 1. A person who:
(1) knowingly or intentionally kills another human being;
(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct (under IC 35-42-4-2 before its repeal), kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human labor trafficking, promotion of human sexual trafficking, promotion of child sexual trafficking, promotion of sexual trafficking of a younger child, child sexual trafficking, or carjacking (before its repeal);
(3) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit:
(A) dealing in or manufacturing cocaine or a narcotic drug (IC 35-48-4-1);
(B) dealing in methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.1);
(C) manufacturing methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.2);
(D) dealing in a schedule I, II, or III controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-2);
(E) dealing in a schedule IV controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-3); or
(F) dealing in a schedule V controlled substance; or
(4) except as provided in section 6.5 of this chapter, knowingly or intentionally kills a fetus in any stage of development;
commits murder, a felony.

The difference between (1) and (2) is the intent element. So for (1), you have to prove the person knowingly or intentionally killed another person. The traditional defenses to that are that it wasn't intentional, the person snapped, it happened in the heat of passion, or whatever other defenses are allowed in the state.

For (2), this subsection basically defines the traditional legal concept of felony murder. It states that "A person who kills another human being while committing [specific felonies] commits murder." This does not include an intent element - the state does not need to prove intent to kill here.

The point behind felony murder statutes is that the state considers certain violent felonies to be so dangerous and egregious that a reasonable person should know there is a high risk of someone being killed. If you commit one of those dangerous felonies, and someone dies, we're essentially going to infer your intent.

If you set a house on fire (arson) and you didn't realize someone was home and that person dies, even though you did not intend to kill that person, you can be charged under (2) with murder.

If you kidnap a child and put her in the trunk of your car and she dies, even though you didn't intend to kill her, you can be charged under (2) with murder.

In this case, IMO, the state believes they have probable cause to prove at least that RA kidnapped the girls and it resulted in their death so he was charged with felony murder. As the investigation continues the state can always file additional charges. But right now they filed these.

I will say recently I have seen more State AGs file charges and then take their case to a grand jury and come back with additional murder indictments. I think there's a calculation to get a dangerous offender off the street as soon as you believe you have probable cause for the arrest while also wanting the security of an indictment where an independent grand jury concurred with your proof. JMO IMO etc etc

There was a case in AZ where during a police chase a helicopter crashed. The perp was charged with felony murder for that.

 

[CSIDreamer]

It's just confusing because in other states felony murder is listed as a separate statute.
Fox 59 said the charges are felony murder. I wonder what it is called if you're charged under subsection 3?

Murder

 

[Lovemycat]

We don't know that he didn't get a deal, and charges would not be filed if he was given immunity for cooperating (ie if he just sat in a car and just knew material facts, but never actually participated in anything).

I case this big I don’t think they would give immunity.

 

[MistyWaters]

I case this big I don’t think they would give immunity.

Hoping i didn’t dream this up but I recall discussion here a month or so ago about Doug Carter being interviewed by Murder Sheet and he emphatically stated nobody would be given a plea deal regarding Delphi murders? Anyone else remember this?

 

[m00c0w]

I case this big I don’t think they would give immunity.

If KAK was not actually involved and would give up who was, I absolutely think they would offer immunity. Small price for catching actual murderers. Regardless, you said he didn't get a deal. We don't know what he has or hasn't received or revealed.

 

[m00c0w]

Hoping i didn’t dream this up but I recall discussion here a month or so ago about Doug Carter being interviewed by Murder Sheet and he emphatically stated nobody would be given a plea deal regarding Delphi murders? Anyone else remember this?

A proffer is not a plea deal.

 

[CSIDreamer]

It is just a section of the murder code. But it's what lawyers call 'felony murder' because instead of needing to prove that the defendant intended to kill the victim, prosecutors just need to prove that he intended to commit one of the listed felonies (kidnapping for example) and during the commission of the felony, the victim died.

In lots of places it applies to accomplices as well. For example, if two guys rob a liquor store and one shoots the clerk, his accomplice can be charged with felony murder even though he didn't pull the trigger. It's even been applied to situations where one of the robbers is killed by police after fleeing the scene and his accomplice is charged with his murder, since it occurred during the robbery. I don't know how broadly it's interpreted in Indiana. But it's theoretically possible for RA to be charged with this even if he didn't personally kill Libby and Abby. I don't think that's what happened here because LE is sure acting like he's the main guy. But that's why it's a little interesting.

It could just be that the prosecutor is cautious and doesn't want to have to worry about defense arguments that there was someone else with RA and that person was the actual killer.

Edit: @Alethea beat me to it.

@Alethea too.

But everyone is getting so hung up on why the charge doesn't specifically say felony murder lol.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

A proffer is not a plea deal.

No, but what I questioned just suddenly popped up in my mind.

However he was just recently quoted saying - “If anyone else was involved they will be held accountable.

Delphi man charged with murder in deaths of Abby and Libby

DELPHI, Ind. — After over five years, a man has been charged with murder in the deaths of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. Richard Allen, 50, of Delphi, is facing two counts of murder. Police d…

wgntv.com

 

[Lovemycat]

If KAK was not actually involved and would give up who was, I absolutely think they would offer immunity. Small price for catching actual murderers. Regardless, you said he didn't get a deal. We don't know what he has or hasn't received or revealed.

His jury trial is set to start in January. That tells me he hasn’t received a deal.

 

[Soulmagent]

When i Googled RA’s name yesterday i kept on getting side by sides of BG & a mugshot that didn’t belong to RA or any other previous persons of interest. It was of a man arrested around the 13th of oktober 2022 in connection with a shooting of a 13yo in Ohio. He looks just like BG, it’s creepy.
Not wanting to speculate or getting off track of the whole RA situation, but wondering:
- in such a high case, it is common that the media messes up mugshots? ( he and RA don’t look alike)
- i couldn’t get the articles open, as i’m not in the US, but did someone see this and can tell me more about it?
- i noticed a lot of you guys wondering if there were going to be more arrests these days regarding Abby & Libby, is it possible that this guy was linked but they can’t yet share?

Unfortunately msm deleted the side by sides & can’t for the moment find links that still work, but i took a screenshot. I guess i can’t share that without working links…

Lordanarts yt channel has that side by side with a clear explaination ,on a recent episode.

 

[m00c0w]

His jury trial is set to start in January. That tells me he hasn’t received a deal.

That doesn't mean anything if the deal is regarding sentencing. Again - we don't know what he has or hasn't received or revealed.

 

[gizmobtj]

I thought he was already charged with 2 counts of Murder? Isn't Murder the most serious murder charge in Indiana?

Think of what's called felony murder as "a death during the commission of a felony." As an example, I'm your getaway driver as you rob a bank. I don't know you have a gun, but you do and yoy shoot someone. In some states (not Indiana in this example), I'd been on the hook for felony murder and you would be charged with murder