Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - #154 *Richard Allen Arrested*

[chocolatechance]

Following on from my earlier post (above) - does anyone one know what happens if RA does not appoint counsel within the 20 days mentioned in the Judge's order:
'Defendant indicated at the initial hearing an intention to hire private counsel.Defendant is reminded that he must retain counsel within 20 days of the initial hearing because there are deadlines for filing motions and raising defenses and, if those deadlines are missed, the legal issues and defenses that could have been raised will be waived or given up. If Defendant is unableto retain counsel of his choosing due to financial indigency, Defendant is reminded that he is entitled to court-appointed counsel and Defendant will be examined upon request.'

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23262780/order-issued-1.pdf

My first question would be, is that 20 calendar (?) days froml ast Friday, 28th October? Second question, does the court follow up, if it notices that no defence attorney has been appointed? Third question - is no defence attorney is appointed by RA are the rights that are being waived essentially the same as if he pled guilty? Anyone know? I am really concerned that this defendant is not being given adequate legal counsel There has already been a hearing - which no-one knew about, and he entered a plea. How come no legal counsel and why is this allowed?

Thank you!

No, he would never be presumed guilty because of lack of counsel. But he would miss deadlines to change venue, to appoint special counsel, file an answer with defenses, etc.--stuff like that which could have major consequences for his case. It's my understanding that the Trial Rules allow the judge to appoint an attorney on the 21st day. It would likely be a public defender, at least initially. The judge could hold a hearing to ask Defendant about his attorney, but time is ticking, and an attorney would need to be appointed fast.

 

[Nikynoo]

No, he would never be presumed guilty because of lack of counsel. But he would miss deadlines to change venue, to appoint special counsel, file an answer with defenses, etc.--stuff like that which could have major consequences for his case. It's my understanding that the Trial Rules allow the judge to appoint an attorney on the 21st day. It would likely be a public defender, at least initially. The judge could hold a hearing to ask Defendant about his attorney, but time is ticking, and an attorney would need to be appointed fast.

Thank you! Much appreciated!

 

[cattlekate]

I’m calming down from my euphoria of an arrest and am now trying to put the puzzle pieces together and yet they do not fit with what has been officially released by LE.

We need the probable cause, search warrant, and arrest affidavit released.

Or it’s another Richard Jewell case.

 

[Indyhandmade]

I'm glad the case was moved. Allen County will be able to handle this. It's where Ft. Wayne is located, which is one of Indiana's largest cities. I'm a little surprised the Supreme Court didn't just move it to Marion County (Indianapolis), as we have a new state-of-the art Justice Center that is supposed to be amazing (I haven't been there yet). I suspect it was a reflection of caseloads and which experienced Judge could take on such a high-profile case.

Case load for sure. Indy had 31 homicides in October alone.

 

[CocoChanel]

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[chocolatechance]

Case load for sure. Indy had 31 homicides in October alone.

Wow--glad I haven't been watching much of the local news. That's depressing.

 

[Arkay]

Seriously, what difference can it possibly make in anyone's life that the document is sealed to all but LE, the court, the state, the defendant and counsel?

No one else needs to know, people just want to see it, hoping there are some gory details contained therein.

There is no reason to chum the water, the feeding frenzy has begun based solely on speculation and opinion.

If there is a trial, which I doubt will happen, the details will then be public.

Every person accused of a crime is cloaked in the presumption of innocence and is entitled to vigorous representation.

Whomever RMA retains as counsel has the duty to make the state prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant is guilty.

For the UK inquirer, private attorneys can turn down any case, public defense counsel (free lawyer) gets assigned to represent the impoverished by the Public Defenders Office. The PD may get stuck with an unpleasant case, but is obligated to exercise vigorous representation.

It doesn't matter if the lawyer believes the client is guilty, duty is duty. The only thing the attorney can not do is put her client on the stand and ask questions knowing that the client's answers will be a lie. It is subornation of perjury.

THIS.

I try never to skip ahead but I'm pages behind and just want to reply to this.

It's MY OPINION ONLY that as I am not the defendant nor the victims, my right to know does not supersede the families' right to receive justice.

If the people who DO know, such as LE and the DA, and most importantly the families, find it vital to keep the PC sealed, then I am all for it.

Of course I'm extremely curious as to how they got RA, why they know he's BG, what precisely happened to Abby and Libby, if anyone else is involved, and so on. I can barely wait to find out. But my morbid curiosity is not as urgent to me as to have the killer found guilty.

If unsealing the PC would in any way compromise the case, my private curiosity can certainly take a seat. I'm a mature adult, I may have a right to know as enshrined in law, but I can wait until the trial.

If the families are petitioning to keep it sealed, who am I to go against their wishes? Even if we think their desires are unfounded, or not within their rights, I want them to have whatever brings them 1) justice and 2) peace.

I have the same prurient interest as do all of us, but I will gladly defer to LE, the DA, and the Williams and Patty families.

JMO

ETA: I understand all those here who say we as yet have no evidence as to why RA has been arrested. That's true, but IMO it's a moot point. I live in a different state and won't be on the jury. That's where evidence should be revealed, in court before a judge and jury, not by us, the public. Moo.

 

[TL4S]

This comment from DC is unsettling to me. It's easy to think the felony murder statute fits due to the kidnapping aspect of this case, since L's video would be evidence of such, but what aspects of kidnapping would be added to a probable cause affidavit here when it wasn't in the RL affidavit? In that probable cause, they were looking for clothing, animal hair, weapons, digital devices, photographs, missing items of the girls', etc. Since we know what kind of things they were looking for then, and now what the charges are, combining this information is what is unsettling to me.


Indiana police superintendent: Delphi murders' facts will come out at trial
I-Team: Allen was charged. The statute that he is charged under, the murder charge, also indicated that he has to have committed another crime, like rape, child molestation or human trafficking. Is charged properly?

Carter: He is, and those questions will be answered in due time, and they certainly should come from the prosecutor and not from me, but eventually when that PC (probable cause affidavit) is released that will be clear.

 

[shushu]

THIS.

I try never to skip ahead but I'm pages behind and just want to reply to this.

It's MY OPINION ONLY that as I am not the defendant nor the victims, my right to know does not supersede the families' right to receive justice.

If the people who DO know, such as LE and the DA, and most importantly the families, find it vital to keep the PC sealed, then I am all for it.

Of course I'm extremely curious as to how they got RA, why they know he's BG, what precisely happened to Abby and Libby, if anyone else is involved, and so on. I can barely wait to find out. But my morbid curiosity is not as urgent to me as to have the killer found guilty.

If unsealing the PC would in any way compromise the case, my private curiosity can certainly take a seat. I'm a mature adult, I may have a right to know as enshrined in law, but I can wait until the trial.in legal proceedings.

If the families are petitioning to keep it sealed, who am I to go against their wishes? Even if we think their desires are unfounded, or not within their rights, I want them to have whatever brings them 1) justice and 2) peace.

I have the same prurient interest as do all of us, but I will gladly defer to LE, the DA, and the Williams and Patty families.

JMO

I doubt the documents will stay sealed for long. We have a constitutional right to transparency in legal proceedings. I'm not sure why the family wants the records sealed? I don't think their petition will have any bearing on the decision.

 

[SuziQ]

'Pedophile' accused of protecting Delphi killer cooperating with cops

Kegan Kline, 28, was linked to the case last December - he had communicated with Libby German via a fake Instagram account the morning she and Abby went missing.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"

‘Pedophile’ catfish, 28, who was linked to Delphi case and accused of ‘protecting’ killer, has been cooperating with authorities - who asked for charges against him be dismissed days after suspect Richard Allen's arrest"​

This is a very good article laying out the connections in a nutshell. IMO.

 

[WingsOverTX]

This is a very good article laying out the connections in a nutshell. IMO.

Ok. But a proviso: it's the Daily Mail & they are calling RA a pharmacist. Who knows what else they are conflating while also providing some facts and truth.

 

[SuziQ]

Ok. But a proviso: it's the Daily Mail & they are calling RA a pharmacist. Who knows what else they are conflating while also providing some facts and truth.

Well I have read the transcript twice and the DM is spot on. And Imo, the reporting nowadays by MSM is so bad I can't diss the Daily Mail any longer. Ten years ago you could, but not any longer. Plenty of other media has reported this case incorrectly and called RA a pharmacist. IMO.

 

[shushu]

THIS.

I try never to skip ahead but I'm pages behind and just want to reply to this.

It's MY OPINION ONLY that as I am not the defendant nor the victims, my right to know does not supersede the families' right to receive justice.

If the people who DO know, such as LE and the DA, and most importantly the families, find it vital to keep the PC sealed, then I am all for it.

Of course I'm extremely curious as to how they got RA, why they know he's BG, what precisely happened to Abby and Libby, if anyone else is involved, and so on. I can barely wait to find out. But my morbid curiosity is not as urgent to me as to have the killer found guilty.

If unsealing the PC would in any way compromise the case, my private curiosity can certainly take a seat. I'm a mature adult, I may have a right to know as enshrined in law, but I can wait until the trial.

If the families are petitioning to keep it sealed, who am I to go against their wishes? Even if we think their desires are unfounded, or not within their rights, I want them to have whatever brings them 1) justice and 2) peace.

I have the same prurient interest as do all of us, but I will gladly defer to LE, the DA, and the Williams and Patty families.

JMO

ETA: I understand all those here who say we as yet have no evidence as to why RA has been arrested. That's true, but IMO it's a moot point. I live in a different state and won't be on the jury. That's where evidence should be revealed, in court before a judge and jury, not by us, the public. Moo.

From a legal standpoint don't you think it's imperative LE reveals why a person was arrested? If they can conceal this then they can arrest without probable cause.

 

[Arkay]

From a legal standpoint don't you think it's imperative LE reveals why a person was arrested? If they can conceal this then they can arrest without probable cause.

I do.
But I know why he was arrested, because we know what's in the charging document. Two counts of felony murder regarding Abigail Williams and Liberty German.
There IS probable cause, which is submitted to the court, not to me. I don't need to know anything further until such time as there is a trial or confession.

Jmo

 

[Sundog]

I think it was wise of him to pull the rip cord and request another judge. I'd guess he was talking with the State about that well before he recused himself. Takes a lot of pride to admit you're not the right judge for such a high profile case.

Or he is extremely protective of his family and doesn't want to take any chances with regard to their safety. I applaud him for this.

 

[shushu]

I do.
But I know why he was arrested, because we know what's in the charging document. Two counts of felony murder regarding Abigail Williams and Liberty German.
There IS probable cause, which is submitted to the court, not to me. I don't need to know anything further until such time as there is a trial or confession.

Jmo

Transparency exists for a reason.

 

[SkyBoomer]

Somethings I have been wondering about.

1. If L and A's deaths are the result of some kind of [insert word] 'ring', is there a chance that other local people are also involved in this 'ring' and;
2. Does the fact that the probable cause document is sealed prevent RA from sharing his copy of that document with various potential defence counsel?

I think number 2 is my main concern. RA is entitled to legal counsel and if it can be shown in any way that access has been prevented, that opens avenues to all sorts of mischief down the road. How secure is the paperwork handed to RA?

Could #2 be a violation of his rights? That would be a YUGE misstep, if so.

 

[Chelly]

Re connections to other criminals:

For the sake of Abby's & Libby's family and community, I sincerely hope there are no other individuals connected to the murders.

If LE has determined no additional individuals are connected, I pray we are informed soon. The speculation is becoming offensive and will continue to fester. I hope I am wrong. my opinion only

 

[TL4S]

Interesting answer by DC.

Rich McHugh
I’m going to ask it, and if you if you don’t want to go there, I understand. The crime scene — the area where their bodies were found — from what I’ve been told, from being there, it’s very hard to reach. Some have speculated that it’s only reachable if you cross this creek. The speculation is that this is a person that was very familiar with the terrain. Can you speak to that at all?

Supt. Doug Carter
Well, I think I’d say is any place in the country that’s rural, there’s multiple points of access, generally speaking. Especially in Indiana, it’s hilly, but mostly flat. So again, there’s a lot of speculation as to why they might have been there. But I’m not going to talk about it right now.

We'll find them': Delphi murders will be solved, Indiana police superintendent says

 

[Sundog]

I think any judge from Delphi area may end up having connections or friendships with the defendant's family and/or the victim's families. Chances are they would have to recuse themselves.

I would hope they might bring in a judge from a nearby city, with more criminal experience, to handle this high profile case so it doesn't turn into a circus.


OOPS---looks like Diener already recused himself

Judge steps down from Delphi case after approving state custody transfer of murder suspect

Judge Benjamin Diener asked Thursday to be recused from the case but did not give a reason.

abc7chicago.com

Judge Benjamin Diener asked Thursday to be recused from the case but did not give a reason.

The Indiana Supreme Court will now assign another judge.

Before all of this happened, Judge Diener approved moving Allen into state custody for safety reasons. Allen had been in the custody of the Carroll County Sheriff's Department.

Looks like the special judge that the Indiana Supreme Court appointed as a special judge in this case (Judge Frances Gull) was a nominee to the Indiana Supreme Court in the past, so I am guessing that she will be a good judicial appointment to be able to deal with the issue and hearing of the sealed affidavit, and will adjudicate with the goal of her decision being able to stand on appeal. JMO.