Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

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mrjitty said:
Great post

I find speculation that the bullet got there by coincidence to be a bit absurd to be honest.

No doubt counsel will indulge in wild speculation but i think their case has to be that the bullet is from the real killer, and that it somehow excludes their client, or doesn't prove anything.
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Yep, it's absurd. All these 'circumstances' lining up with his admitted presence on the trails at the critical time wearing the same 'circumstantial' clothing, all witnessed by others too, and the 'circumstance' of no one reporting having sighted any other male out there (who he never reported seeing either) and an unspent round whose ejector markings just happen to match 'circumstantially' his gun found in the midst of the crimescene that he denied ever setting foot on.

Possible; but not probable. Possible, but NOT reasonable given the totality of ALL the circumstances.

Yep, but it just got there randomly / or the real killer or one of the girls just happened to find it and drop it there. Wow - the odds of that happening are even less than the odds of him causing it to be there directly. Possible; but not probable.

Meh, I'm thinking that they can match that bullet lot and batch number to others found during the execution of their search warrant at his residence. That'd make it just one more bit of 'circumstantial' info to pile on top of all the other circumstantial evidence that's going to be used to ensure this man never hurts anyone again.
 
Gemmie said:
I've been wondering about this since I watched the one-time vid that MadMcGoo approved and posted upthread. RMA was coming from the east and driving west down W 300 N when he was seen on Hoosier Harvestore cam. Why would he come from that direction when the direct route from his house wouldn’t capture him traveling on W 300 N at ALL? (Deer Creek Township on the map is the approx. area of where the old CPA building was and where he parked).
View attachment 387898

What's east? Not a whole lot but RL lives east of Hoosier Harvestore cam. Coming from the east to where RMA parked isn't the direct route from RMA’s house to where he parked his car (unless he stopped by RL's house/property earlier in the day).

Yet he he was seen coming from the east. The only way to get to W 300 N from RMA’s house is to go pretty far east before you can go north on N 450 W since you can’t cross Deer Creek going north. I scrolled on the map and there’s not much east of town. However, RL’s house is east of the Hoosier Harvestore cam that RL was seen on at 1:27pm (1:47 mark in approved vid below) The red X marks where RL lived and the blue line shows you how far out of the way RMA would have had to drive to be seen traveling west on the cam if he had not taken the direct route to where he parked at the Old CPA. That’s pretty far out of the way when the direct route (above pic) makes more sense.
View attachment 387900

So, what I wonder is did LE check the cam for earlier in the day and see if they spotted RMA twice on the cam? Like traveling east down W 300 N on his way to RL’s by taking the direct route from his house there? Direct route to RL’s would have him traveling east on W 300 N past the cam. That would make sense to me why they saw him driving west on the cam @ 1:27. Hence me wondering did they check earlier in the day to see him traveling east, and then later on @ 1:27 west, or did they think they had seen enough when they saw him traveling west about the time just before things went down? If they didn't check earlier on the vid they missed out on an opportunity to potentially see RMA traveling east on his way to RLs.
View attachment 387901

For argument’s sake... let's say he didn't stop at RLs first. That still begs the question... why was he seen driving west down W 300 N when there’s not much east of town, and why didn't he take the direct route to the Old CPA lot from his house? Things that make ya go Hmmmm.....

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Was RA's car seen on surveillance video or himself as the driver too? What, if he picked up someone, before he drove to the CPA building? Do we know, he was alone and only he got out of the car?
o_O re all points of compass.
 
Maybe someone here will have an answer to this. Why are we not seeing the PCAs for various search warrants? We have RA's and KAK's arrest PCAs, so why not the PCAs to search their homes? I cannot believe that the media outlets have not tried to obtain those documents, so are they sealed? Are they considered evidence? Do those PCA's fall under a different legal rights category than the arrest PCAs as they pertain to public accessibility?

We do have RL's property search PCA, although I'm not sure how that was obtained. He was never charged with anything related to that search, so there's no open investigation or looming court trial associated with it. Is that why it was released?
 
RA's route coming from the east could have been something as mundane as taking some yard waste to the transfer station, then taking the county roads to avoid all the stop/start town traffic.

It seems so odd to me that he didn't trip anyone's trigger enough to check him out in the early days. Maybe the descriptions and the witness images threw everyone off?

If one of his neighbors had called in, saying our neighbor wears clothes just like that when working outside, would LE have followed up on that tip?
 
TL4S said:
Maybe someone here will have an answer to this. Why are we not seeing the PCAs for various search warrants? We have RA's and KAK's arrest PCAs, so why not the PCAs to search their homes? I cannot believe that the media outlets have not tried to obtain those documents, so are they sealed? Are they considered evidence? Do those PCA's fall under a different legal rights category than the arrest PCAs as they pertain to public accessibility?

We do have RL's property search PCA, although I'm not sure how that was obtained. He was never charged with anything related to that search, so there's no open investigation or looming court trial associated with it. Is that why it was released?
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So many of us know so little about how these things work that it's kind of scary. It's my understanding that, in IN, we can either go to the courthouse that handled the case or request docs online. Of course, those are the ones that are "for the public". We don't know what's sealed until we ask to see it.

I'm guessing the accused can see their documents as soon as they are charged. I don't know if they can be sealed so that even the accused can't access them. As for RL, we still don't know if his were sealed/unsealed.
 
Here is an example of all the items that can be sealed in a case. It's from the Helen Sailor/ Andrew Royer exoneration case. This is a brief summary I did for my own record:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org www.documentcloud.org
Based on the foregoing, the Court finds that the following individual case records are exempt from disclosure on the grounds stated:

* Reports of physical or mental exams submitted to the court in connection with sentencing.
* Mental Health consultation requests and psychiatric evaluation docs.
* Pre-sentence investigation reports and accompanying memoranda
* Autopsy reports, photographs, video or audio recordings
* Witness lists which included identifying info and addresses
* Juror identification docs which include addresses, juror deliberation notes and questions
* Law enforcement incident/investigation reports and supplemental case investigatory records
* Research and judicial notes; work product of court staff
* IN DOC authorization to release info
* Appellant Brief

Additionally, petitioner may not at this time access or obtain copies of any evidentiary exhibits, including docs, photos, recordings, etc. that were admitted at trial.

As the petitioner's request for access to trial exhibits now stands, that request is denied.

The Court is not confident that all appeal rights have been exhausted in the case herein and, therefore, also declines to authorize the release of trial exhibits on that basis. Local rule also provides that all material placed in the custody of the Court Reporter may be removed by the offering party within 4 months after final disposition of the case, or be otherwise disposed of by court order. Accordingly, the court may not be in possession of the items sought by the Petitioner.

The Court hereby orders the clerk of the Court to provide access to and copies of those records in the Clerk's possession, including the Chronological Case Summary and all docs except those deemed to be confidential or that are sealed, to the Petitioner Christian Sheckler of the South Bend Tribune is requested by him at his cost. He may also obtain a copy of the trial transcript at his own cost.
 
FrostedGlass said:
Here is an example of all the items that can be sealed in a case. It's from the Helen Sailor/ Andrew Royer exoneration case. This is a brief summary I did for my own record:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org www.documentcloud.org
Based on the foregoing, the Court finds that the following individual case records are exempt from disclosure on the grounds stated:

* Reports of physical or mental exams submitted to the court in connection with sentencing.
* Mental Health consultation requests and psychiatric evaluation docs.
* Pre-sentence investigation reports and accompanying memoranda
* Autopsy reports, photographs, video or audio recordings
* Witness lists which included identifying info and addresses
* Juror identification docs which include addresses, juror deliberation notes and questions
* Law enforcement incident/investigation reports and supplemental case investigatory records
* Research and judicial notes; work product of court staff
* IN DOC authorization to release info
* Appellant Brief

Additionally, petitioner may not at this time access or obtain copies of any evidentiary exhibits, including docs, photos, recordings, etc. that were admitted at trial.

As the petitioner's request for access to trial exhibits now stands, that request is denied.

The Court is not confident that all appeal rights have been exhausted in the case herein and, therefore, also declines to authorize the release of trial exhibits on that basis. Local rule also provides that all material placed in the custody of the Court Reporter may be removed by the offering party within 4 months after final disposition of the case, or be otherwise disposed of by court order. Accordingly, the court may not be in possession of the items sought by the Petitioner.

The Court hereby orders the clerk of the Court to provide access to and copies of those records in the Clerk's possession, including the Chronological Case Summary and all docs except those deemed to be confidential or that are sealed, to the Petitioner Christian Sheckler of the South Bend Tribune is requested by him at his cost. He may also obtain a copy of the trial transcript at his own cost.
Click to expand...
Then I guess my next question would be, why was everyone so up in arms about the arrest PCA being released, scoffing about constitutional rights, with various media sources unifying against the court, but they aren't doing that with these other possibly sealed documents, of which we don't even know their status? It's probably blatantly obvious and I'm just not understanding. It wouldn't be the first time. :)
 
TL4S said:
Then I guess my next question would be, why was everyone so up in arms about the arrest PCA being released, scoffing about constitutional rights, with various media sources unifying against the court, but they aren't doing that with these other possibly sealed documents, of which we don't even know their status? It's probably blatantly obvious and I'm just not understanding. It wouldn't be the first time. :)
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The arrest and the charges are the foundation of the case and are really important. I guess it's just natural that we'd all want to see them; especially when RA seemed to come out of thin air. I don't know why there is or will be a lack of concern about other sealed docs.

There apparently was no concern about sealed docs in the Royer case until someone cared enough to try to get them.

Disclaimer: I have no expertise in this field so anyone with actual knowledge is welcome to speak up.
 
gizmobtj said:
Not true. Re-agents don't always work

" Ateam of scientists from the University of Valencia (UV) has proven that traces of blood in various materials are eliminated completely when they are washed with detergents containing active oxygen."

www.sciencedaily.com

Traces Of Blood Are Eliminated Completely By New Products Containing Active Oxygen

Scientists have shown that traces of blood in various materials are eliminated completely when they are washed with detergents containing active oxygen. The conclusion of the study points out that these new products alter blood to such an extent that this cannot be detected by reagents used in...
www.sciencedaily.com
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The intention of my post was to point out that if a knife was used that had a handle that was attached with rivets RA would have to disassemble the knife and soak it in whatever medium that would eliminate luminol being able to detect blood. If the knife had rivets like gut hook knives commonly do, he would need to remove the rivets as blood would soak behind the rivets. Then how would he reattach forged rivets without LE knowing he dismantled and cleaned the knife? steel and metal knives also have minute pits in the medium they are constructed of. Thanks for your reply. I was not questioning what mediums could be used to avoid luminol use to detect blood. Sorry for not being clear. Edited for clarification
 

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TL4S said:
Maybe someone here will have an answer to this. Why are we not seeing the PCAs for various search warrants? We have RA's and KAK's arrest PCAs, so why not the PCAs to search their homes? I cannot believe that the media outlets have not tried to obtain those documents, so are they sealed? Are they considered evidence? Do those PCA's fall under a different legal rights category than the arrest PCAs as they pertain to public accessibility?

We do have RL's property search PCA, although I'm not sure how that was obtained. He was never charged with anything related to that search, so there's no open investigation or looming court trial associated with it. Is that why it was released?
Click to expand...
I believe at the time, RA's PCA was ACCIDENTALLY posted on line by the court.. .and then removed quickly. However, I think it was the MS that had a snapshot of it, verified that it was legit and then released it.
 
gizmobtj said:
Well, like BTK, the killing itself could be what the suspect is secually attracted to -- as opposed to being a pedo
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Very true, IMO! The Boston Strangler--was he sexually attracted to those elderly women, or did the murders themselves fill some need for him? The Idaho killings--were the girls murdered because of sexual attraction, or some other reason? Albert Fish, Robert Hansen, Gary Ridgeway, Peter Sutcliff--do we know their inner feelings, their motivations?

Just calling someone a "pedo" doesn't illuminate motives and psychological issues that we can't know, IMO. How do we know the reasons someone takes the lives of innocent children? Even if a murderer IS a pedophile, how do we know if that is responsible for killings?

Just my own opinion, but saying "pedo!" doesn't explain murder, and unless we are professionals with intimate knowledge of a murderer, we only rarely know if pedophilia is even related to the murders involved. Personally I would say we very rarely actually know if someone is a pedophile, when all we have are news reports for a diagnosis that should be based on thorough examination by clinicians.

Maybe RA *is* a pedophile; maybe the murders of L&A were related to pedophilia. I don't think we, the general public, can actually KNOW that at this point. Did Bridge Guy kill the girls because he was sexually attracted to early teens, or did he just want to kill and teen girls are targets who won't fight back?

JMHO but the "pedo" label doesn't help us understand the murders, not now. And isn't it painfully simplistic to label someone a pedophile based on nothing more than victims' ages, when we don't actually know a suspect's motivations and psychological pathology? JMHO; flame away.
 
TL4S said:
We do have RL's property search PCA, although I'm not sure how that was obtained. He was never charged with anything related to that search, so there's no open investigation or looming court trial associated with it. Is that why it was released?
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Good question. I remember an FBI agent generated PCA; some thought she went overboard, widening search. First crime scene details came to mind from items sought. Cannot recall release reasoning. Wishing I'd have created desktop folders, for some details linger, though sources do not, hindering WS posts now.
 
gizmobtj said:
Well, like BTK, the killing itself could be what the suspect is sexually attracted to -- as opposed to being a pedo... and to
"AC4RD" also: ...their motivations.
I was living in Wichita Kansas during 'BTK', and had a source in policing. I was terrified! Typing this now brings waves of chilly
fear. We focus on young girls here, rightly so! Just adding about 'attraction': this image of murder scene from over fifty years ago...one older woman in an apron, all crumpled on her kitchen floor. So sadly vulnerable, every single victim of derangement.
 
mrjitty said:
Great post

I find speculation that the bullet got there by coincidence to be a bit absurd to be honest.

No doubt counsel will indulge in wild speculation but i think their case has to be that the bullet is from the real killer, and that it somehow excludes their client, or doesn't prove anything.
Click to expand...

I think they Defense will say the bullet has no connection to the murders, and in any event, it didn't come from RA's gun. Ejection scratch marks on a bullet can't really be irrefutably tied to a specific gun, in my opinion, no matter what LE claims. My opinion only.
 
Vern said:
Meh, I'm thinking that they can match that bullet lot and batch number to others found during the execution of their search warrant at his residence. That'd make it just one more bit of 'circumstantial' info to pile on top of all the other circumstantial evidence that's going to be used to ensure this man never hurts anyone again.
Click to expand...

Good thinking! I had not considered that possibility.
 
Ghosthunter said:
The intention of my post was to point out that if a knife was used that had a handle that was attached with rivets RA would have to disassemble the knife and soak it in whatever medium that would eliminate luminol being able to detect blood. If the knife had rivets like gut hook knives commonly do, he would need to remove the rivets as blood would soak behind the rivets. Then how would he reattach forged rivets without LE knowing he dismantled and cleaned the knife? steel and metal knives also have minute pits in the medium they are constructed of. Thanks for your reply. I was not questioning what mediums could be used to avoid luminol use to detect blood. Sorry for not being clear. Edited for clarification
Click to expand...
Well I would think if the knife were used for skinning/cleaning deer, the reaction of luminal would be explained. If there is blood residue on any of RAs knives, I hope they go straight to DNA testing without possible contaminating the sample with luminal. My opinion only.
 
Trebor5591 said:
Well I would think if the knife were used for skinning/cleaning deer, the reaction of luminal would be explained. If there is blood residue on any of RAs knives, I hope they go straight to DNA testing without possible contaminating the sample with luminal. My opinion only.
Click to expand...
If RA was smart he disposed of the knife he used on the girls instead of keeping it. I totally agree with you. IMO
 
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