Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #162

[FrostedGlass]

IMO, he would have been totally sensless to be walking on the bridge to commit 2 murders wearing lifts.

In this MS podcast, AC describes RA as a "very small man in terms of his stature." I have yet to see any witness description of him in that way. In fact, one of the juveniles said he wasn't over 5'10", which could be interpreted as he could have been as tall as that.

 

[TL4S]

Regarding height and weight, this was early on, but...

LISTEN: Police release audio from teen's cell phone in Delphi murder investigation

The grainy photo police released was taken on the popular Monon High Bridge. Police say the picture has already been enhanced, and their description is no better than a white male in a blue jacket and blue jeans.

"We can't provide height or weight," Slocum said. "The picture speaks for itself."

 

[Yemelyan]

IMO, he would have been totally sensless to be walking on the bridge to commit 2 murders wearing lifts.

In this MS podcast, AC describes RA as a "very small man in terms of his stature." I have yet to see any witness description of him in that way. In fact, one of the juveniles said he wasn't over 5'10", which could be interpreted as he could have been as tall as that.

I'm wondering if this juvenile witness was perhaps very young....a small-statured 8 or 10 year old estimating height of an adult male might, when recalling, overestimate towards average male height when he was actually nowhere close to that. Much more so than, say, a 13 or 16 year old who is closer to adult height themselves. Just like how a very young person estimating age of an adult might skew towards older than reality.

 

[TL4S]

I'm wondering if this juvenile witness was perhaps very young....a small-statured 8 or 10 year old estimating height of an adult male might, when recalling, overestimate towards average male height when he was actually nowhere close to that. Much more so than, say, a 13 or 16 year old who is closer to adult height themselves. Just like how a very young person estimating age of an adult might skew towards older than reality.

Which makes sense since we know NMcL said something about some of the witnesses still being juveniles now.

 

[Jade]

Is it really all that noticeable that a random man is 5’7? [5’7 determined from mugshot]

To me it wouldn’t stand out as a descriptor. Especially if his was of average looking proportions.

5’4 yes, depending on frame of reference. Are the much spoken of BG look a likes around town also short? Is shortness a common trait in the area?

For example I see a man who is under 5’7 frequently but he is also quite petite in features and proportions.

At a distance or out of the corner of my eye until I recognize him he appears to be a teenager or younger college age guy.

A person who is older than he appears.





IMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm wondering if this juvenile witness was perhaps very young....a small-statured 8 or 10 year old estimating height of an adult male might, when recalling, overestimate towards average male height when he was actually nowhere close to that. Much more so than, say, a 13 or 16 year old who is closer to adult height themselves. Just like how a very young person estimating age of an adult might skew towards older than reality.

I believe that's the one who said he was all in black. How credible would her testimony be?

 

[FrostedGlass]

I remember what a deep dive we all did on BG's jacket when we first saw the pic of him on the bridge. We had lots of images for Carhartt and coats with toggle buttons. Did we ever think it was a blue jean jacket?

With that in mind, I'm speculating the woman who saw him on the bridge did not get a frontal view of him or his jacket; at best a side view angle. Not enough to identify him, not enough to know the jacket probably wasn't a blue jean jacket. If he was looking south or south/west, he probably didn't see her.

Which I think is strange if he's scoping out the area so see if anyone is around, thinking about killing someone. Wouldn't a person keep an eye out behind them, too?

 

[JosieMae]

All the talk about (credible, IMO) eyewitnesses has me hoping even more for DNA evidence from the jacket, matching DNA from the crime scene, and that the missing article of clothing was found during the search of RA's home. Abby and Libby deserve a strong evidentiary case.

 

[Justice101]

Is it really all that noticeable that a random man is 5’7? [5’7 determined from mugshot]

To me it wouldn’t stand out as a descriptor. Especially if his was of average looking proportions.

5’4 yes, depending on frame of reference. Are the much spoken of BG look a likes around town also short? Is shortness a common trait in the area?

For example I see a man who is under 5’7 frequently but he is also quite petite in features and proportions.

At a distance or out of the corner of my eye until I recognize him he appears to be a teenager or younger college age guy.

A person who is older than he appears.





IMO

For what it's worth (maybe nothing...), here is a distribution of men's heights. Average is close to 5'-10" or course, but 5'4" is really on the low side. I am 6'-1" myself and surprised to learn I was that "rare"

 

[tmar]

His phone location is one of the big unknowns here, he had a phone - was it his own phone?
If so why was he not interviewed earlier?
The previous DA stated they had all cell traffic subpoenaed for a five mile radius around Delphi, possibly it was a burner phone they could not trace.
Either way, establishing he was on the trail links him to the phone he was using, and that phone likely yielded location data.

Speaking about RA's phone: check out phone steps, orientation of phones, etc at Alex Murdaugh's trial at the moment.
Hope here, similar info can be obtained, linking RA's phone to Libby's (distance apart etc).
Maybe we'll be very surprised with the added 'phone evidence'.

(perhaps added years delay, with the phones not being as sophisticated as present phones, such details will not be possible).

 

[FrostedGlass]

All the talk about (credible, IMO) eyewitnesses has me hoping even more for DNA evidence from the jacket, matching DNA from the crime scene, and that the missing article of clothing was found during the search of RA's home. Abby and Libby deserve a strong evidentiary case.

I've followed this case since the first missing girls call went out. Like so many others, I've checked in here almost every day, spent countless hours speculating and hoping each time a POI came up that we finally had the murderer.

Like you, I'm hoping with all my heart that they have solid evidence that RA is the one responsible for the deaths of Abby and Libby. Because I'm emotionally invested and I don't want to spend the rest of my life wondering if the real murderer tap danced his way to freedom.

 

[Cedars]

Which I think is strange if he's scoping out the area so see if anyone is around, thinking about killing someone. Wouldn't a person keep an eye out behind them, too?

RSBM
IMO, he knew she was there and didn't want her to see much of him. Especially not make eye contact or have to say hello.

It may have been the same with the girls, pretend not to notice them at first.

Then, if he follows her/them, it seems quite innocent at first. How could you follow someone when you didn't know they were there?

It seems he knew he'd been seen, that's why he reported he'd been there.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

The attorney MS interviewed recently, Shay Hughes AKA Hoosier Public Defender, has been tweeting a bit about this case today. He has posted the State's response to RA's bond reduction request.

https://twitter.com/publicdefender_

Here's what he said:
Hoosier Public Defender
@publicdefender
·5h
State filed their Response to #RichardAllen bond reduction. No caselaw in support (sigh). Suggests there is evidence to deny motion but doesn’t provide exactly what that is. Also local rule is subject to the Indiana Constitution. #abbyandlibby #justiceforAbbyandLibby #DELPHI

*** 3Hrs ago
State must put on evidence if no bond is to continue. But evidence rules don’t apply to such hearings. Expect them to put on a detective to summarily testify about case.

*** 2 Hrs ago (He's explaining about the detective)
Exactly who? Idk. But in such circumstances the State generally calls lead/material investigator. Want to limit # of witnesses. Someone experienced on witness stand, knowledgeable about case. All points to a detective.

*** 55 Min ago (This is his reply to George from 7E)
No it is not. For what it’s worth, prosecutors usually draft PCA. Investigator w/ prosecutor’s office usually signs it but sometimes the lead detective/officer does on major cases. #RichardAllen #abbyandlibby #justiceforAbbyandLibby #DELPHI #truecrime #lawtwitter
######
George from 7E
@7eGeorge
Replying to @publicdefender_
interesting. thank you! slightly off topic - is it customary for a PCA to have the author/detective name redacted such as in this case?

 

[Slawsb]

If there is DNA evidence from Abigail Williams or Liberty German on Richard Allen's jacket, that would definitely change how people view this case. I think the presumption of guilt would be much higher. Maybe he was so confident after seeing the sketches that came out that he thought police were looking for the wrong person? This is why he kept such incriminating evidence like the jacket?

I am still confused about Richard Allen's height, 5'4" or 5'7"? I cannot figure out the height of bridge guy without doing measurements of the bridge and the angles. Overall, I think a lot of people would rather have had a probable cause affidavit that had some solid proof that Richard Allen was at the crime scene with the girls. The bullet evidence is ok depending on the research and which expert you believe.

When former prosecutor Ives said there was so much evidence left out at the crime scene, I thought the probable cause affidavit would have more in it so the general public could be sure police had the right person.

It's most important that the police know they have the right person than it is for the general public to know

 

[TL4S]

The attorney MS interviewed recently, Shay Hughes AKA Hoosier Public Defender, has been tweeting a bit about this case today. He has posted the State's response to RA's bond reduction request.

https://twitter.com/publicdefender_

Here's what he said:
Hoosier Public Defender
@publicdefender
·5h
State filed their Response to #RichardAllen bond reduction. No caselaw in support (sigh). Suggests there is evidence to deny motion but doesn’t provide exactly what that is. Also local rule is subject to the Indiana Constitution. #abbyandlibby #justiceforAbbyandLibby #DELPHI

*** 3Hrs ago
State must put on evidence if no bond is to continue. But evidence rules don’t apply to such hearings. Expect them to put on a detective to summarily testify about case.

*** 2 Hrs ago (He's explaining about the detective)
Exactly who? Idk. But in such circumstances the State generally calls lead/material investigator. Want to limit # of witnesses. Someone experienced on witness stand, knowledgeable about case. All points to a detective.

*** 55 Min ago (This is his reply to George from 7E)
No it is not. For what it’s worth, prosecutors usually draft PCA. Investigator w/ prosecutor’s office usually signs it but sometimes the lead detective/officer does on major cases. #RichardAllen #abbyandlibby #justiceforAbbyandLibby #DELPHI #truecrime #lawtwitter
######
George from 7E
@7eGeorge
Replying to @publicdefender_
interesting. thank you! slightly off topic - is it customary for a PCA to have the author/detective name redacted such as in this case?

My money is on 1st Sgt. JH or Det. DV.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

I agree. It's kind of like how for 5 1/2 years we all believed KG dropped off the girls at 1:38, when in actuality, camera footage put it at closer to 1:49. A nearly 10 minute discrepancy we talked about because we didn't know the evidence.

Well tbf, we believed KG dropped the girls off at 1:38 because that's what KG publicly stated, right?

 

[MistyWaters]

Well tbf, we believed KG dropped the girls off at 1:38 because that's what KG publicly stated, right?

Interestingly enough, what KG publicly stated was not consistent to the time being reported by the media. Many of us have pondered why a firm timeline in this regard was never confirmed and stated by LE. Shouldn’t be that difficult, whether by CCTV of KGs vehicle or talking on her cellphone at the time to her bf.

The Unsolved Delphi Murders: What Happened to Indiana Teens Libby German and Abby Williams?

The murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams remain unsolved, but it is believed one of the victims may have captured audio and photo clues that point to her killer.

www.aetv.com

“The two eighth-graders were dropped off around 1 p.m. on February 13, 2017 to walk along the Delphi Historic Trails. They’d arranged to meet relatives at the start of the trail about an hour after they arrived. (They had the day off from school for a “snow make-up day.”)”

Delphi murders: What's still missing 2 years after the slayings of Abby and Libby

The Delphi slayings of Libby German and Abby Mitchell in February 2017 have captivated the nation. But there's still much we don't know.

www.indystar.com

“The girls were dropped off near the Monon High Bridge, just east of Delphi, at about 1 p.m. on Feb. 13, 2017.”

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

1:30 p.m. Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams were dropped off to go hiking near Monon High Bridge just east of Delphi, according to family.

 

[crhedBngr]

When i run at my slow pace - its around 5.20 per km

Walking at a decent pace is at least 10mins per km as a guide

So i think that timing would need to be actual running than walking

I suspect there is something wrong with the framing - but honestly i think I will just wait until the prelim to get excited about that level of detail as otherwise so much time can get wasted

RBBM

I run about 5mph. Powerwalking for me is slower, but that's because I'm lazy these days.

JMVHO.

 

[southgoldengirl]

I’m pretty sure most western countries have the option to remain silent. I wouldn’t think twice to answer any questions police asked if I could help solve a murder or any other crime. I’m in Australia and I’m pretty sure the only people wary of olive here are the criminals who have something to hide. Guess it’s a whole different vibe here.

It's called American exceptionalism. For some reason many have the belief that it's the only country in the world with these human rights. IMO due to LE practices and the judicial system in America whereby many people are treated unfairly and falsely convicted it's no wonder they're wary and afraid.

Interestingly, the USA is amongst one of the very few industrialized nations in the world that still has the death penalty in many states. Some would argue that this is the ultimate human rights violation.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is the earliest MSM report I can find. Now I‘m wondering if RA thought he’d clear himself by stating he was at the trails 1:30 to 3:30pm, arriving some time later than the girls who he claimed not to see. And possibly this fairly significant time discrepancy of 48 minutes originally fell into LE’s category of confidential/holdback information for the purpose of weeding out false sightings or tips? This news report also mentions “canvassing” involvement from DNR. I wonder if local businesses such as CVS were also canvassed?

Feb 13, 2017 10:29pm

MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

Two 13-year-old Carroll County girls are missing after they were dropped off to go hiking Monday afternoon.

www.wrtv.com

“Two 13-year-old Carroll County girls are missing after they were dropped off to go hiking Monday afternoon.

Carroll County Sheriff Toby Leazenby said Abigail "Abby" Williams and Liberty "Libby" German were last seen around 1 p.m. when they were dropped off near an abandoned railroad bridge known as "Monon High Bridge," east of Delphi.…

…….Local police, deputies, firefighters and the Department of Natural Resources are canvassing the area the girls were last seen…..”