IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[CGBSpender]

IMO it’s not so much the words he said as how the defence abruptly reacted in an attempt to undertake damage control, by creating a lot of smoke and mirrors in order to present an excuse for his admissions - a breakdown in his mental health caused by alleged poor conditions at Westville. Their attempt to mitigate proved unsuccessful, however valiant the defensive effort as it did attract attention.

But time will tell if/when the case goes to trial. It’s said a good defence team will never allow a client to plead guilty before they’ve thoroughly scrutinized and received all discovery.

The current silence surrounding this case could be significant if not meaningless. Regardless, considering all the chatter prior to an arrest, it’s now gone the opposite direction. JMO

I'm actually really glad the Defense team did what they did in terms of damage control as you put it. It was a weak argument, but it was the only one they've got really...and I think it is important to head off an ineffective assistance of counsel arguments at the appellate level depending on what happens in the future with this case.

No matter how anyone feels about his innocence/guilt, having a strong defense team is good for both sides...because if he is guilty, the last thing the family and community in this case needs is to go through a trial more than once because of a conviction getting reversed on appeal for whatever reason.

IMO it is silent likely because both sides are working in the background on discovery and evaluating the evidence...and talking to potential experts.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

I'm not impressed with the Defense lawyers, haven't been from the beginning. I don't believe they will get anything thrown out ultimately. They've been shot down time and again already.

They're arguing for 'Rick' (I hate that they use his first name when speaking of him) and that's their job. But RA really messed up his case by those admissions, no matter how they try and spin it. Not counting all of the other evidence, of which we aren't even fully aware of at this point.

JMO

I respectfully disagree, I think they have done a decent job so far with what they've got. As in poker, you have to play the hand you are dealt, and from the outside it looks like they are starting out with a 2-7 off suit lol. And I also suspect the State may have an ace or two hidden up their sleeve (at least I hope they do...because the PCA was weak IMO).

Their arguments are weak, and they know it...but they have to try...because is in everyone's best interest for them to give it their best shot.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

Confessions vs admissions for anyone interested:

As in the Patton case, the statement of Green as testified to by Deputy Cambridge is not a confession in the pure sense. It is rather an admission. A confession must be sufficiently comprehensive as to embrace all essential elements of the crime. As stated in Wharton's Criminal Evidence (13th ed.) s 663:

‘An admission is an acknowledgment by the accused of certain facts which tend, together with other facts, to establish his guilt; while a confession is an acknowledgement of guilt itself. An admission, then, is something less than a confession and, unlike a confession, putting to one side the problem of corroboration, an admission is not sufficient in itself to support a conviction.’

The distinction was well drawn in State v. Masato Karumai (1942) 101 Utah 592, 126 P.2d 1047 as follows:

‘A confession is the admission of guilt by the defendant of all the necessary elements of the crime of which he is charged, including the necessary acts and intent. An admission merely admits some fact which connects or tends to connect the defendant with the offense but not with all the elements of the crime.’

In no sense then could a conviction rest solely upon an admission. Its import is directed to less than all the essential elements of the crime, e.g., in the case at bar, to the element of intent. The danger guarded against by the evidentiary doctrine which requires corroboration of a confession is not therefore present with respect to an admission. Notwithstanding a degree of doubt as to the rationality of a rule which requires than an admission as well as a confession be inadmissible unless the corpus delicti has been proved by independent evidence,2 many cases have so held.
Green v. State, 159 Ind. App. 68, 73–74, 304 N.E.2d 845, 848–49 (1973)



We take note of the fact that Parsons' statement, as testified to by Trooper Connors, is not a confession but rather an admission. A confession must include all essential elements of the crime, whereas an admission merely admits some fact which tends to connect the defendant with the alleged offense. Green v. State (1973), Ind.App., 304 N.E.2d 845.
Parsons v. State, 166 Ind. App. 152, 155–56, 333 N.E.2d 871, 873 (1975)

 

[StarryStarryNight]

True. But the death penalty isn't exactly on the table in this case. I could be wrong, but I believe the State would need to prove intent to kill in order for that to be an option in Indiana. I don't think they were confident that they have that element nailed down...if they did, IMO they wouldn't have charged him with Felony Murder. Depending on what comes back in their third party discovery though they may get more confident, it's hard to speculate on that one. I am still in the camp I guess that anything is possible with this case...possibly even one or more perps.

I have a young child so unfortunately, I haven't been able to find time to sneek away and catch up on the Murdaugh trial on YT lol. If you've got questions about Bluey or Superkitties though fire away haha! The Delphi case is pretty much the only one I've been following quite closely.

JMO

My brain keeps telling me the logical thing to do is for him to plead guilty and be done with it. That’s what I want, but know it’s not going to happen seeing how things are going.
I sure do understand the young child scenario. I admit to still singing Sesame Street songs and folding clothes while watching it AFTER dropping my boys off at preschool. Talking with the cashier at the grocery store were treasured as adult conversation. Wonderful times! Enjoy it all! They do grow up fast!

 

[CGBSpender]

Looks like KK is going to do some time...

KK has advised that he wishes to appeal his sentences, and appellate counsel has been appointed. Stay tuned I guess...

"The Court, being duly advised in the premises, announces the aggravators and mitigator found by the Court. The Court FINDS the following aggravators: (1) The harm, injury, loss, or damage suffered by the victims of the Defendant was significant and greater than the elements necessary to prove the commission of the offenses; (2) The Defendant has a history of criminal and delinquent behavior; (3) The victims of some of the offenses were less than twelve (12) years of age; (4) The Defendant was in a position having control of some of his victims; and (5) The Defendant’s sexual behavior and attitudes and selfish, manipulative character support the imposition of additional sentencing consequences upon him. The Court FINDS the following mitigator: The Defendant entered a plea of guilty, saving the State the time and expense of a trial and sparing the victims from having to testify (though that is tempered to some extent by the fact that there was substantial evidence of the Defendant’s guilt)..."

"To sum up, then, the Defendant is receiving an aggregate sentence of forty-three (43) years at the Indiana Department of Correction, with forty (40) years of that sentence being executed at the Indiana Department of Correction and the remaining three (3) years being suspended to supervised sex offender probation. The Defendant shall receive credit against his sentence on Count 1 for having already served 1,072 actual days in the Miami County Jail (from August 19, 2020, through July 26, 2023) and having earned 357 days of good time credit, for a total credit of 1,429 days..."

Source: Sentencing Order Dated July 27, 2023.


JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm actually really glad the Defense team did what they did in terms of damage control as you put it. It was a weak argument, but it was the only one they've got really...and I think it is important to head off an ineffective assistance of counsel arguments at the appellate level depending on what happens in the future with this case.

No matter how anyone feels about his innocence/guilt, having a strong defense team is good for both sides...because if he is guilty, the last thing the family and community in this case needs is to go through a trial more than once because of a conviction getting reversed on appeal for whatever reason.

IMO it is silent likely because both sides are working in the background on discovery and evaluating the evidence...and talking to potential experts.

JMO

Yes and if anything it’s a great reminder to not get caught up in what a defence team presents in motions because it might be nothing more than creative writing, in this instance to garner sympathy over this “prisoner of war” who is “entombed“ in a cell no larger than a “dog kennel”. JMO

Judge: Richard Allen to stay at Westville

Jul. 20—DELPHI — Richard Allen, a Carroll County man accused in the deaths of Delphi teenagers Libby German and Abby Williams, will now stay at the Westville Correctional Facility as he awaits trial next January. The order came down Wednesday afternoon from Allen County Superior Court Judge...

news.yahoo.com

“But in Wednesday's ruling, Gull said the evidence presented at the June hearing "did not support many of the allegations advanced by defense counsel," according to court records.”

 

[FrostedGlass]

Looks like KK is going to do some time...

KK has advised that he wishes to appeal his sentences, and appellate counsel has been appointed. Stay tuned I guess...

"The Court, being duly advised in the premises, announces the aggravators and mitigator found by the Court. The Court FINDS the following aggravators: (1) The harm, injury, loss, or damage suffered by the victims of the Defendant was significant and greater than the elements necessary to prove the commission of the offenses; (2) The Defendant has a history of criminal and delinquent behavior; (3) The victims of some of the offenses were less than twelve (12) years of age; (4) The Defendant was in a position having control of some of his victims; and (5) The Defendant’s sexual behavior and attitudes and selfish, manipulative character support the imposition of additional sentencing consequences upon him. The Court FINDS the following mitigator: The Defendant entered a plea of guilty, saving the State the time and expense of a trial and sparing the victims from having to testify (though that is tempered to some extent by the fact that there was substantial evidence of the Defendant’s guilt)..."

"To sum up, then, the Defendant is receiving an aggregate sentence of forty-three (43) years at the Indiana Department of Correction, with forty (40) years of that sentence being executed at the Indiana Department of Correction and the remaining three (3) years being suspended to supervised sex offender probation. The Defendant shall receive credit against his sentence on Count 1 for having already served 1,072 actual days in the Miami County Jail (from August 19, 2020, through July 26, 2023) and having earned 357 days of good time credit, for a total credit of 1,429 days..."

Source: Sentencing Order Dated July 27, 2023.


JMO

I was going to weed through the sentences and give a summary but changed my mind. The sentences were listed according to the judge's work but they were chaotic for me and I'm afraid my numbers aren't accurate.

We need to take in consideration which counts are consecutive and which are concurrent.

 

[Justice101]

I'm not impressed with the Defense lawyers, haven't been from the beginning. I don't believe they will get anything thrown out ultimately. They've been shot down time and again already.

They're arguing for 'Rick' (I hate that they use his first name when speaking of him) and that's their job. But RA really messed up his case by those admissions, no matter how they try and spin it. Not counting all of the other evidence, of which we aren't even fully aware of at this point.

JMO

Even if the best high school basketball team in the country was up against the worst NBA team.

it would not even be a contest. The denfense here is up against insurmountable odds.... because IMO, their client did it and there is only so much you can do to fight overwhelming evidence.

But we will see if that is the case when it comes to trial.

 

[HistoryNut]

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but has anyone heard anything further about a possible additional suspect?

 

[CGBSpender]

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but has anyone heard anything further about a possible additional suspect?

I have not heard a peep. I'm very curious about that possibility though. Nothing we've seen so far puts the murder weapon in the hands of the individual currently charged. I've also thought that the level of protection surrounding him is a bit over the top...from the photos I've seen it looks like this guy has more US Marshals with him when he goes to Court than Kohberger, Heuermann, Madoff, and Kaczynski combined.

JMO

 

[Salah11]

I have not heard a peep. I'm very curious about that possibility though. Nothing we've seen so far puts the murder weapon in the hands of the individual currently charged. I've also thought that the level of protection surrounding him is a bit over the top...from the photos I've seen it looks like this guy has more US Marshals with him when he goes to Court than Kohberger, Heuermann, Madoff, and Kaczynski combined.

JMO

What makes you say that?

 

[FromGermany1]

I have not heard a peep. I'm very curious about that possibility though. Nothing we've seen so far puts the murder weapon in the hands of the individual currently charged. I've also thought that the level of protection surrounding him is a bit over the top...from the photos I've seen it looks like this guy has more US Marshals with him when he goes to Court than Kohberger, Heuermann, Madoff, and Kaczynski combined.

JMO

Do authorities believe, RA will be freed by his (possible) accomplices (members of a possible ring) by an attack??

 

[girlhasnoname]

I have not heard a peep. I'm very curious about that possibility though. Nothing we've seen so far puts the murder weapon in the hands of the individual currently charged. I've also thought that the level of protection surrounding him is a bit over the top...from the photos I've seen it looks like this guy has more US Marshals with him when he goes to Court than Kohberger, Heuermann, Madoff, and Kaczynski combined.

JMO

I don't think it's over the top necessarily, I think he is at substantial risk of someone trying to harm him. RA is accused of an extremely high profile, horrific double homicide of beautiful, innocent young girls which had gripped the entire country for a long time. BG was the "Bogey Man" IMO

The fact that he was living in their own town, under their very own noses for 6 years without being caught has got to make matters worse and local tempers flared. I'm not local, but mine is flared.

I say err on the side of caution here. I believe that's why is guarded 24/7 at Westerville as well. Keep him safe, get him to trial and let a jury of his peers find him guilty and lock this animal away forever or worse.

JUST MOO

 

[Schatz]

I've also thought that the level of protection surrounding him is a bit over the top...from the photos I've seen it looks like this guy has more US Marshals with him when he goes to Court than Kohberger, Heuermann, Madoff, and Kaczynski combined.

JMO

Snipped for focus. Really? I get most of my news in print and hadn’t noticed. That *is* interesting. Indiana is a little strange.

 

[gregjrichards]

I have not heard a peep. I'm very curious about that possibility though. Nothing we've seen so far puts the murder weapon in the hands of the individual currently charged. I've also thought that the level of protection surrounding him is a bit over the top...from the photos I've seen it looks like this guy has more US Marshals with him when he goes to Court than Kohberger, Heuermann, Madoff, and Kaczynski combined.

JMO

Photos from WRTV Richard Allen made 'admissions of guilt' to multiple people, according to Carroll Co. prosecutor and Court tv Testimony: Richard Allen made incriminating statements in jail

I have noticed the high level of protection he has, I’ve only seen defendants who have been arrested for very serious crimes like terrorism with similar levels of protection around them before. He has bullet proof vest on and shackles when he is being transported to and from the court house so it would be very difficult for him to escape. I’m glad that the Federal Bureau of Prisons appears to be doing everything possible to ensure he cannot escape or suffer an injury if someone tried to attack him. He needs to be kept safe so that he can serve as much of his sentence as possible if the court finds him guilty of the crimes he has allegedly committed.

 

[CGBSpender]

What makes you say that?

According to the docs supporting the search warrant that were recently released, the girls were killed with a knife. There is nothing in the PCA charging him that says he had a knife and/or killed them with a knife. The PCA has him on the bridge with them, ordering them down, and then puts an unspent bullet allegedly from his gun near the bodies...nothing about a knife...nothing about his DNA on any victim or evidence at the scene that he touched either victim. I feel like if they could put him at the scene with a knife in his hand, or his DNA on a victim then they would have charged intentional murder, not felony murder...and the lack of evidence supporting an intentional murder charge also leaves the door open to a possible accomplice.

It's possible in the search of the home they found evidence to put him there with the murder weapon...but we don't know anything about that as of now...and looking at the documents from the search...it didn't look like any of the knives recovered were sent out to a lab for testing (unless I'm misunderstanding the docs)...it looks like only the ballistic evidence and the carpet from the trunk of the car were sent for testing.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

Do authorities believe, RA will be freed by his (possible) accomplices (members of a possible ring) by an attack??

I don't think freeing him would be a concern. I think LE is fearful someone will try to kill him...it could be just fear that an unstable individual following the case might try to accomplish vigilante justice...or it could be that if there was an accomplice that there is a fear that individual might put a hit out on him to keep him from talking? My other thought is that perhaps he knows about some crime(s) totally unrelated to the crimes he is charged with, and someone fearful he might use that knowledge to negotiate a deal for himself would want to see him fatally harmed?

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

View attachment 438516View attachment 438518

Photos from WRTV Richard Allen made 'admissions of guilt' to multiple people, according to Carroll Co. prosecutor and Court tv Testimony: Richard Allen made incriminating statements in jail

I have noticed the high level of protection he has, I’ve only seen defendants who have been arrested for very serious crimes like terrorism with similar levels of protection around them before. He has bullet proof vest on and shackles when he is being transported to and from the court house so it would be very difficult for him to escape. I’m glad that the Federal Bureau of Prisons appears to be doing everything possible to ensure he cannot escape or suffer an injury if someone tried to attack him. He needs to be kept safe so that he can serve as much of his sentence as possible if the court finds him guilty of the crimes he has allegedly committed.

You reminded me of something else...so Westville is a State prison...which makes sense since this is a State case (he's not charged with a Federal crime)....yet ISP and/or CCS are not doing the transport for him...it's US Marshals. I get that the local CCS officers might not be equipped to do that kind of transport protection duty...but ISP certainly is capable...they had guys over in Israel for months training with the Mossad before Indy hosted the Super Bowl...ISP is certainly way capable of getting this guy to and from Court without someone taking a shot at him. I know the US Marshals have been helping out on the case and all, but it still seems strange to me.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

Snipped for focus. Really? I get most of my news in print and hadn’t noticed. That *is* interesting. Indiana is a little strange.

I've not seen this with respect to Indiana before...which enhances my curiosity. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I can't think of any other case where the accused was held by the IDOC and not the County Jail (or a County Jail nearby) while the case was pending...let alone the number of Marshals assigned to bring him to/from Court. I get that it's a high-profile case and all...but the level of protection is still odd to me.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

I don't think it's over the top necessarily, I think he is at substantial risk of someone trying to harm him. RA is accused of an extremely high profile, horrific double homicide of beautiful, innocent young girls which had gripped the entire country for a long time. BG was the "Bogey Man" IMO

The fact that he was living in their own town, under their very own noses for 6 years without being caught has got to make matters worse and local tempers flared. I'm not local, but mine is flared.

I say err on the side of caution here. I believe that's why is guarded 24/7 at Westerville as well. Keep him safe, get him to trial and let a jury of his peers find him guilty and lock this animal away forever or worse.

JUST MOO

It very well could be just that. Perhaps also some concerns as to being sued if something happens to him on their watch? They can't cut him loose pending trial, but they don't want the liability either for the County or the State? Makes me wonder if there is some difference in immunity protections available to US Marshals if something were to go wrong during transport vs. immunity for ISP or CCS officers if they were to be doing the transport?

JMO