IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[r3d-ros3]

Interesting! What is the reasonable doubt it introduces for you? It sounds like it raises the possibility of a motivated conspiracy... but are there claims that cast doubt on RA's involvement??

The document introduces a number of alternative suspects with possible motive and a clearer connection (than RA had) to Libby and Abby, like H and W. H posted photos on Facebook that invoked the crime scene and potential symbolism present at the crime scene, even though this information was not publicly available. He was also interviewed by law enforcement early on as a result of multiple tips received about him. His partner, AH, was also interviewed by LE and offered some interesting information about H and W’s relationship and their interest in "Asatru," which H also mentioned in his interview with LE (page 83 of the doc, if you're interested).

IMO, the introduction of these other suspects casts doubt -- FOR ME -- on RA's involvement in the crime. Of course, we don't have all of the information on what LE found in RA's home. It's possible they possess additional evidence that places him at the crime scene in addition to the bullet (shell casing?) found. It's also possible that they found evidence that shows RA's interest in the ostensible "Nordic beliefs" the symbolism at the crime scene may represent. It sounds like the defense is interested in getting this evidence thrown out, so it also follows that in the absence of all of the information on RA, the defense has manufactured an alternative narrative to distract from this evidence / distract or sway the jury later on. Of course this is a possibility.

The document also suggests that LE's consultation with a professor at Purdue and the FBI's BAU led them to suspect a ritualistic crime, which they were apparently uninterested in following through with. They cleared H, for example, pretty soon after the murders in spite of what I find to be compelling evidence that suggests his involvement in or knowledge about the murders.

FWIW, I find the document to be very silly in places and I also understand their rhetorical moves to cast doubt on LE's narrative and their insistence that they finally caught the guy. Even so, the other suspects introduced in the document, and LE's inability or unwillingness to properly investigate them, creates doubt and is also, unfortunately, what I would characterize as another incredible error on Delphi police's investigation into this crime. This does not make them look good and raises serious questions about the investigation and the current suspect in custody.

All IMO.

 

[Inthedetails]

My one takeaway from this filing is that I suspect that the crime scene provoked some significant tests of faith among this LE group who began their days in group prayer, etc. As an agnostic who favours a pragmatic, scientific approach to complex cases (in my medical professional as well as TC-observing lives), I admit to some discomfort about the overtly religious tenor of some LE discussions of the case over the years, particularly in the notorious Carter "Shack" digression.

snipped

It's not uncommon in many parts of the USA for colleagues to pray together. They could pray and also use a "pragmatic, scientific approach." They could also be tested in their faith by this crime. All of that could happen.

jmopinion

 

[iamshadow21]

what the what?? I've been busy with clients all morning and just was reading my local news when I saw this:

(NBC CHICAGO) - Attorneys representing Richard Allen, the man charged with killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana, in 2017, filed court documents on Monday asserting the girls died in a "ritualistic sacrifice" by white nationalists who practice a Norse pagan religion.
[snip]
Early on in the investigation, authorities consulted with a Purdue University professor concerning what resembled possible Odinism signatures left behind at the crime scene, the defense attorneys wrote. But that angle was "essentially abandoned" after the professor told law enforcement "it was not Odinism or any type of cult worshipping or any type of group that would have conducted the crime," as stated in the filing.

According to the memorandum, as of Sept. 7, the investigators claim they can't identify who the purported professor is, have no reports from the purported professor and have indicated they may never be able to figure out who the person is.
https://www.wandtv.com/news/delphi-murders-victims-died-in-ritual-sacrifice-by-white-nationalists-practicing-odinism-defense/article_21c99824-56ee-11ee-936f-2ffa161991d1.html

So are investigators saying no such professor was consulted and defense has made this up form whole cloth or . . .

and why does the defense suggest white nationalists would sacrifice these two specific Caucasian girls? I'm not being Facetious here, I don't get this at all. Granted I don't know much about Odinism pagan practices and less about white nationalists. What I do know about the pagan practices is that on special occasions animals were sacrificed and eaten. What I think I know about white nationalists is that they have issues with non white persons and dilution of their own blood. None of which explains why this attorney suggests the girls were murdered by one of these groups. The finding of sticks that resemble runes seems pretty slim to me. Heck, I've been out hiking in the woods and created runelike structures. I have never even considered killing two teens.

This feels very much like lets throw something at the wall and find a new boogieman to turn attention away from the man who has apparently CONFESSED several times. MOO

Welcome to the *gestures vaguely* whatever the heck this is. Whatever it is, it's awful, and it's not helping Abby or Libby get justice one little bit. What it is doing is creating an enormous, ridiculous distraction that only serves to confuse this case further and increase the chances of an unholy mess at trial for the jury to try to untangle.

And I don't know if ANY of the stuff in this document is in any way legal. It reads like a b-movie screen writer, a conspiracy theorist and a fan fiction writer sat down and workshopped it. It's not like any legal document I've ever seen, but I am not a lawyer.

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

There was discussion on the previous thread regarding low volume of blood found at the scene. That’s contrary to information previously released and it’s important to consider what’s contained in defence motions is not required to be proven facts.

New details of Delphi Bridge Murders reveal victims died in bloodbath

New details from the notorious Delphi Bridge murders of Abby Williams and Libby German reveal that the bodies were found to have lost a 'large amount of blood.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

“A large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene,' an FBI search warrant read. It did not note how the girls had been wounded, but noted that there were no signs of a 'struggle or fight.'..”

 

[tlcya]

Welcome to the *gestures vaguely* whatever the heck this is. Whatever it is, it's awful, and it's not helping Abby or Libby get justice one little bit. What it is doing is creating an enormous, ridiculous distraction that only serves to confuse this case further and increase the chances of an unholy mess at trial for the jury to try to untangle.

And I don't know if ANY of the stuff in this document is in any way legal. It reads like a b-movie screen writer, a conspiracy theorist and a fan fiction writer sat down and workshopped it. It's not like any legal document I've ever seen, but I am not a lawyer.

MOO

I haven't seen the actual document but would love to - If it's linked I need to go find it in this new thread of the old one. Yes, fan fiction meets B-movie meet wishful thinking bullcrap. that is my take just hearing about what the document alleges.

 

[Inthedetails]

it’s important to consider what’s contained in defence motions is not required to be proven facts.

snipped

Exactly.

I understand the interest in the document, but I do hope people realize it is not proven.

jmo

 

[iamshadow21]

There was discussion on the previous thread regarding low volume of blood found at the scene. That’s contrary to information previously released and it’s important to consider what’s contained in defence motions is not required to be proven facts.

New details of Delphi Bridge Murders reveal victims died in bloodbath

New details from the notorious Delphi Bridge murders of Abby Williams and Libby German reveal that the bodies were found to have lost a 'large amount of blood.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

“A large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene,' an FBI search warrant read. It did not note how the girls had been wounded, but noted that there were no signs of a 'struggle or fight.'..”

Yep, as I suggested earlier - the likelihood is that the blood would have soaked in, and would have discoloured to almost black brown. I've seen the photos of the area - the soil is an almost black brown. The blood is there, it's just virtually the same colour as the soil. If the defense expect red everywhere pooled on the surface in the photos, they don't understand blood.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

I haven't seen the actual document but would love to - If it's linked I need to go find it in this new thread of the old one. Yes, fan fiction meets B-movie meet wishful thinking bullcrap. that is my take just hearing about what the document alleges.

Let me know if you can't find it, I downloaded it to read hours ago so I have a copy.

 

[Salah11]

There was discussion on the previous thread regarding low volume of blood found at the scene. That’s contrary to information previously released and it’s important to consider what’s contained in defence motions is not required to be proven facts.

New details of Delphi Bridge Murders reveal victims died in bloodbath

New details from the notorious Delphi Bridge murders of Abby Williams and Libby German reveal that the bodies were found to have lost a 'large amount of blood.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

“A large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene,' an FBI search warrant read. It did not note how the girls had been wounded, but noted that there were no signs of a 'struggle or fight.'..”

This is interesting as i thought Libby had put up one hell of a fight or an i remembering wrongly?

 

[iamshadow21]

This is interesting as i thought Libby had put up one hell of a fight or an i remembering wrongly?

I think that was wishful thinking from her family based on their impression of her personality. How people actually react in life-threatening situations is often quite different to how they, or their loved ones believe they will.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

The defence's claim that RA arrived at 12.00 and left by 1.30 is simply not credible.

It contradicts the interview notes which are the only contemporaneous record
It contradicts his car on security camera
It contradicts the approx time he met the 3 girls

It seems reasonably clear he arrived at 1.30, in which case it seems quite likely his car was still at CPS for the witness to see. She simply made a mistake.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just taking a moment in all this craziness to remember the two most important people in this case.

 

[Salah11]

The defence's claim that RA arrived at 12.00 and left by 1.30 is simply not credible.

It contradicts the interview notes which are the only contemporaneous record
It contradicts his car on security camera
It contradicts the approx time he met the 3 girls

It seems reasonably clear he arrived at 1.30, in which case it seems quite likely his car was still at CPS for the witness to see. She simply made a mistake.

Yes those 3 girls are not mentioned in the new documents which puts a spinner in RA’s defense imo

 

[sandy_80]

The document introduces a number of alternative suspects with possible motive and a clearer connection (than RA had) to Libby and Abby, like H and W. H posted photos on Facebook that invoked the crime scene and potential symbolism present at the crime scene, even though this information was not publicly available. He was also interviewed by law enforcement early on as a result of multiple tips received about him. His partner, AH, was also interviewed by LE and offered some interesting information about H and W’s relationship and their interest in "Asatru," which H also mentioned in his interview with LE (page 83 of the doc, if you're interested).

IMO, the introduction of these other suspects casts doubt -- FOR ME -- on RA's involvement in the crime. Of course, we don't have all of the information on what LE found in RA's home. It's possible they possess additional evidence that places him at the crime scene in addition to the bullet (shell casing?) found. It's also possible that they found evidence that shows RA's interest in the ostensible "Nordic beliefs" the symbolism at the crime scene may represent. It sounds like the defense is interested in getting this evidence thrown out, so it also follows that in the absence of all of the information on RA, the defense has manufactured an alternative narrative to distract from this evidence / distract or sway the jury later on. Of course this is a possibility.

The document also suggests that LE's consultation with a professor at Purdue and the FBI's BAU led them to suspect a ritualistic crime, which they were apparently uninterested in following through with. They cleared H, for example, pretty soon after the murders in spite of what I find to be compelling evidence that suggests his involvement in or knowledge about the murders.

FWIW, I find the document to be very silly in places and I also understand their rhetorical moves to cast doubt on LE's narrative and their insistence that they finally caught the guy. Even so, the other suspects introduced in the document, and LE's inability or unwillingness to properly investigate them, creates doubt and is also, unfortunately, what I would characterize as another incredible error on Delphi police's investigation into this crime. This does not make them look good and raises serious questions about the investigation and the current suspect in custody.

All IMO.

info wasnt public ..but locals were def spreading those rumors instantly
its a small town biggest murder.. you think le managed to keep it under wraps ? also the searchers were there
id say many ppl already knew about the crime scene

 

[mrjitty]

Yes those 3 girls are not mentioned in the new documents which puts a spinner in RA’s defense imo

Yes.

I get the feeling their best hope is to get the search warrant tossed, and the bullet with it. Then push to get it dismissed

They know they have zero chance at a bail hearing and trial will have to be conspiracy theories about an alternate killer who has a water tight alibi. Go figure

 

[r3d-ros3]

info wasnt public ..but locals were def spreading those rumors instantly
its a small town biggest murder.. you think le managed to keep it under wraps ? also the searchers were there
id say many ppl already knew about the crime scene

That's fair -- you're right that there were local rumors spreading about the crime scene. I do think it's strange that, at least per the defense doc (which is all we have right now that describes the crime scene in such detail), H posted what appears to be a "re-staging" of the crime scene that was extremely accurate. H and W also filmed a ceremony where they apparently marked a tree in a similar place as the tree was marked at the crime scene. It could be a coincidence, or irrelevant, or a result of rumor, but it's strange nonetheless, IMO.

Regardless, I think it's particularly brazen to post these images on a public Facebook profile. You wouldn't think that the killer(s) would do something so incriminating. And yet, H posted these images -- and LE didn't seem to find it worth following up on anyway. This is not to say that H is the killer, but rather, that you'd think anyone local who posted such imagery would be worth following up on significantly. That's why a man from Georgia, and several locals, called in information about H and his social media posts to the tip line. And still, per the defense doc, LE dropped him as a suspect almost immediately following the murders. I find that shocking.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I’m not letting myself get drawn in by the smoke screen the defense is attempting to create. We have a self confessed Perp sitting in the slammer awaiting his trial.

Let the process surface the facts, and let the appointed jury render their decision in due process.

Everything else is noise.
Justice for the families of Libby and Abby!

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[M. Kay]

We will never give up on Abigail Williams' and Liberty German's lives ending the way they did:

Cold case solved more than 50 years after 9-year-old girl abducted

Thanks to DNA testing, investigators finally know who killed a 9-year-old girl in Georgia in 1972.

www.yahoo.com

 

[MistyWaters]

It seems this defence motion is attempting to lead the unsuspecting public down the garden path. Rather than 136 pages filled with fluffy stuff, if they really wanted to put some strength behind the Odin allegations all that would be needed is a copy of this report showing support by the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit. But no, instead it’s only referred to in passing reference, disputed by ISP.

Delphi double homicide attorneys say victims were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

The newest twist in the case comes in a document dump Monday morning from Allen's attorneys, who are asking the judge to throw out evidence collected during a search of

www.wlfi.com

“The court document also references a Rushville investigator's 85-page report, which claims the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found "the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs."

ISP investigators, however, dispute that assertion, saying the FBI unit never made such a finding.…”

 

[LunaInvidia]

It's wild to me that anyone is taking the pagan angle seriously. It feels like watching a case involving cannibalism and the defense said "we think it was committed by this known Catholic, because Catholics consume flesh and blood!" like okay I Guess Technically Yes that is a belief but absolutely no one thinks taking communion is the same as the Donner Party.