IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[MistyWaters]

Yeah, that short statement didn't tell me a lot. He didn't say that they lied. And the letter they are talking about in the memo, they have it, like I said above, they are not allowed to lie to the court, they could and probably would be disbarred for that. The only question is if Click changed his mind after sending the letter (beginning of May of this year).

No Click didn’t say they lied. What he said was “no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual in a ritual sacrifice” which contradicts pretty well the entire narrative of the memorandum, including the findings of the FBI BAU who the defence claimed supported their theory as well.

 

[Miya]

BBM why doesn’t that say “murders”? Every other instance says murders but that first one says no DNA linking RA to the crime scene. So I’ll assume there is dna linking him to the murders, just not to the crime scene.

Um, what? The murders happened at the crime scene, so if there is no DNA there, where do you think DNA would be that actually links him or anybody else to the murders?

 

[iamnotagolem]

Um, what? The murders happened at the crime scene, so if there is no DNA there, where do you think DNA would be that actually links him or anybody else to the murders?

Abby & Libby’s blood at his home would be DNA linking him to the murders. Or their clothes, hair, jewelry, etc

 

[Miya]

Often people do not make a clear decision to cross a line, but as emotions and egos get involved decision making can become less distinctly clear. You and I (we on Web Sleuths) have the benefit of distance and not be that engaged. We can discuss things (all good points, good talking with you) and come back next week or next month. Someone working 10 or 12 hours a day on a capital murder case? Fatigue will become a factor in thinking, pride (ego and reputation), and other human factors also will enter into decisions and actions. It's the human factor.

I'm pretty sure they learn in law school that they are not allowed to lie to the court. And not just learn, but get that hammered into their brains. I doubt they would make that mistake because of pride, fatigue or anything else. And if they actually did, then they deserve to be disbarred and I hope they would be.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I'm pretty sure they learn in law school that they are not allowed to lie to the court. And not just learn, but get that hammered into their brains. I doubt they would make that mistake because of pride, fatigue or anything else. And if they actually did, then they deserve to be disbarred and I hope they would be.

"Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story."


https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2019/december-2019/_truthiness_-and-professional-responsibility/#:~:text=Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to,tell the defendant's whole story.


"Being honest means not telling lies. Being truthful means actively making known all the full truth of a matter. Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth."

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications.

 

[Springrain]

I don't believe that he hauled the bodies around.
There was conversation about Libby being drug.
He could have easily done that.
Little Abby was 100 pounds at most.
Redressing her would not have been a monumental task.
Adrenaline and twisted desire will fuel someone with extra strength.

Videos taken by RA's wife show that he had no mobility issues.
To this day, he works out routinely.

Could there have been a second individual helping with the murders?
Maybe, but until that arrest is made, I will lean towards "probably not."

I will flat out refrain from buying into an entire cult being responsible. If this crime was not so terrible, it would be laughable. ( the cult involvement)

JMO

Well put. JMO
I see no actual evidence he has any mobility issues, he works out, jumps up and down, etc. I am half his age and more in shape than him with no serious mobility issues (some knee issues), and I can't do that. He's not a large man, but I see no reason to doubt he would have issues dragging about Libby and moving a petite Abby. Probably most women could have moved Abby.
MOO I find the whole Odinist cult angle so absurd and it demonstrates to me that the defense is reallyyyyyy reaching. I will wait to see the evidence in court from both sides, but I truly believe it is not remotely close to the truth. JMO.

Um, what? The murders happened at the crime scene, so if there is no DNA there, where do you think DNA would be that actually links him or anybody else to the murders?

IMO it could likely be not that there is no DNA at the crime scene, but no usable crime scene DNA.

 

[Miya]

No Click didn’t say they lied. What he said was “no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual in a ritual sacrifice” which contradicts pretty well the entire narrative of the memorandum, including the findings of the FBI BAU who the defence claimed supported their theory as well.

But if the defense has the letter, they can't just invent what the letter said. That's why I said, maybe he changed his mind after beginning of May 2023.

This is what the memo says:

On May 1, 2023, the State of Indiana, by way of Prosecutor Nick McCleland, received a letter from former Rushville Assistant Police Chief Todd Click, now retired.2 As stated in the previous paragraph: Click, Murphy and Ferency were three of the law enforcement officers who worked on the Delphi murder case, particularly focused on the Odinite angle as it intersected with suspects in Rushville Indiana. After reading Richard Allen’s probable cause affidavit, Click became concerned that the information contained in Richard Allen’s affidavit pointing the finger at Richard Allen was far less compelling than the totality of the information that Detective Ferency, Detective Murphy and Officer Click had accumulated during the Rushville portion of the investigation. The information that Murphy, Ferency and Click had gathered during their investigation connected men who practiced Odinism in or near Delphi with another group of men who lived in Rushville and then connected both groups of men to the murders.3 Click was concerned that for some reason the leadership of the investigative team had failed to share with Prosecutor McCleland the evidence gathered by Click, Ferency and Murphy. Click’s concerns led him to seek out a lawyer to assist him in the drafting of a letter. This letter was then sent to McCleland.4

 

[Springrain]

MOO - The whole Odinist cult angle by RA's defense team is literally only put forth to confuse and distract people, an effort to try to make connections that aren't there, that they know aren't there, to muddy the waters enough to create doubt despite what is in my opinion very real and intriguing evidence of Rick's guilt. I advise everyone reading to strongly consider the behind the scenes of the cult angle and its purpose in the case. JMO.

 

[Miya]

Abby & Libby’s blood at his home would be DNA linking him to the murders. Or their clothes, hair, jewelry, etc

Ok, blood or hair after almost 6 years? And if he kept any of the things you mentioned, then he must be very very dumb. And maybe he is. But if Holeman said there is no DNA linking him to the crime scene, I guess that means no DNA, also no DNA from the girls as his house, etc.

 

[Springrain]

Piggybacking off my last post, I think that specific angle was chosen because it preys on people's fears. No one (reasonable) is in support of a Neo Nazi cult, and IMO the Pagan aspect is interwoven in to cause fear and questions in the local population which consists of a lot of Christians who consider their religion/religion in general to be very important for them, and may be automatically upset by mentions of Paganism (especially, I would imagine, when it is combined with racist ideology). Plus, while we're not sure where everything will end up taking place, but if it does end up taking place in an area with a lot of people of color, the racist cult will be terrifying to them as well even if they are not religious. My opinion as a mixed-race person is that this stuff is terrifying, my initial reaction hearing about that is absolute horror (and I'm sure white posters here will agree as well! It's not only horrifying to think about as minorities), but after actually reading about it and researching, my gut reaction, while I of course don't support Odinists, is that in my opinion it is evident it has nothing to do with Abby and Libby and is a distraction tactic by his team. My Opinion Only.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Ok, blood or hair after almost 6 years? And if he kept any of the things you mentioned, then he must be very very dumb. And maybe he is. But if Holeman said there is no DNA linking him to the crime scene, I guess that means no DNA, also no DNA from the girls as his house, etc.

We don't have a full statement from Holeman!
What we have is a Defense memo with information that they are allowed to manipulate.
Yes, they have to be truthful.
No, they don't have to be honest!
They are under no obligation to tell the truth.
Loopholes. They exist.
Confused?
Me too, but they know what they are doing and how to twist the narrative.

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Ok, blood or hair after almost 6 years? And if he kept any of the things you mentioned, then he must be very very dumb. And maybe he is. But if Holeman said there is no DNA linking him to the crime scene, I guess that means no DNA, also no DNA from the girls as his house, etc.

It wouldn't be crazy to think he kept a souviner would it?
Isn't that somewhat common?

 

[Miya]

We don't have a full statement from Holeman!
What we have is a Defense memo with information that they are allowed to manipulate.
Yes, they have to be truthful.
No, they don't have to be honest!
They are under no obligation to tell the truth.
Loopholes. They exist.
Confused?
Me too, but they know what they are doing and how to twist the narrative.

JMO

I never said they can't twist it but they can't say Holeman said that if he didn't. They can leave out other things that he said, but that still means there was no DNA, etc.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I never said they can't twist it but they can't say Holeman said that if he didn't. They can leave out other things that he said, but that still means there was no DNA, etc.

But, they can leave crucial things out.
They may have ommitted statements about other things regarding DNA. We would need Holeman to clarify.

It was said early on by Carter that they have DNA.

We just don't know what that means.

 

[MistyWaters]

We don't have a full statement from Holeman!
What we have is a Defense memo with information that they are allowed to manipulate.
Yes, they have to be truthful.
No, they don't have to be honest!
They are under no obligation to tell the truth.
Loopholes. They exist.
Confused?
Me too, but they know what they are doing and how to twist the narrative.

JMO

Jerry Holeman is referred to as lowly Trooper Holeman or Detective Holeman throughout, yet his rank is First Sergeant. Makes we wonder how thorough were these interviews if the defence didn’t even know the basics of whom they were interviewing?

 

[renah]

I agree, plus normally they wait until the actual trial to begin their defense theatrics.

To me, this looks like amateur hour, because most defense attorneys don't have spare time to waste on 136 page dead end motions, that won't succeed in court (altho the media love it). They usually have more important, more effective things to do.

JMO

To me, this looks like his attorneys are convinced that something is rotten in Nordic Denmark!

 

[renah]

No Click didn’t say they lied. What he said was “no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual in a ritual sacrifice” which contradicts pretty well the entire narrative of the memorandum, including the findings of the FBI BAU who the defence claimed supported their theory as well.

But I don't think the memorandum actually says this at all!

Instead they are implying a mentally ill person or two did this in hopes of joining BH's group.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

But the defense is not just talking about if he was physically able to do it alone but if he was able to do it alone in a bit over an hour or even less. And now that we know what the crime scene looked like, I'm wondering that myself.

I think it's weird, especially after this memo (and let's not forget the press conference after his arrest where LE said they are not done with the investigation, this is just the beginning, not ruling out that others are involved, etc.) how everybody just seems to be interested in seeing RA convicted and not if he actually did it or if there are others involved. If there are, you don't care that, and as dangerous as they would be, they are still running around free, free to do whatever they want? I don't get this "somebody finally has to pay" thing, I want the right person or people to pay. If that's Richard Allen and just him, ok, but we can't be sure of that.

We do not know what the crime scene looked like. We know what the defense wants us to think the crime scene looked like.

I am not going 100% thinking that RA is the guy, although I do think the evidence seems to point that way. But, I would like for a trial to take place to determine that, but Indiana doesn’t seem particularly interested in moving this thing along.
I respect everybody’s opinion because, frankly none of us know much of anything, and all of us really just want justice for Abby and Libby.
What I will not do is look at this defense motion and read it as fact, because it is not.

 

[Miya]

We do not know what the crime scene looked like. We know what the defense wants us to think the crime scene looked like.

I think they gave a pretty accurate description, but they claim it was all done with a purpose, posing, etc. (which yes, I'm sure would have taken longer than around an hour or less, at least for one person alone) when it could also mean a lot of it is just a coincidence. Just throwing some sticks doesn't take as long as putting them in exactly the right place, finding the best ones to do it, just as an example.

So all that could be complete BS but the crime scene as such, I think that's probably pretty accurate (I heard, and now I'm not sure if I read this here or if it was somewhere on youtube) that Libby was also covered with leaves, if that's true, then yes, they left some things out. Leaves don't really go well with the posing using sticks, that looks more like it was just done quickly to cover up the crime scene. I still think it wouldn't have been easy to do for one person in that timeframe. And that includes that they also had to get to the crime scene from the bridge.

 

[Charlot123]

I am thinking if someone local owned that car that everyone would know who it belonged to.

I expect a cat like this can be easily searchable Indiana-wide and even country-wide