IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #169

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Oh agree, I wasn't suggesting that. My question was whether it was strictly true that RA had no counsel until the court documents reflect that.


The J also wouldn't allow RA in the courtroom/ chambers when his D was withdrawing (presumably without his knowledge and consent due to his earlier submission). IMO this is potentially problematic.
Problematic how? Does RA have any say as to his attorney withdrawing or being forced to step away? I don't think he has any way to consent or not to consent because it is not up to him. IMO Circumstances beyond his control, led to the withdrawal of his defense team. JMO
 
I'm not clear as to what Gull misled everyone about? In chambers Baldwin agreed to withdraw from the case and made an oral statement to that fact. Rozzi made a statement that he intended to file a written withdrawal which would be provided "within in the next few days". That was recorded and is legal and binding.

This is what Judge Gull spoke to exactly in Open Court directly following that meeting. Now Rozzi is having a change of heart? Too bad, as of the time they left chambers on Oct 19th agreeing to withdraw from representing Defendant Allen, they had no legal standing for filing any further Motions on behalf of him or the case, let alone to file a Motion for Judge Gull's recusal.

The Defense team has been nothing but a showboating, playing fast and loose with letter of the law willy nilly duo since the day they came on board. Their Memorandum in support of the Franks Hearing was enough to get them recused IMO and one of the most exploitive and unethical documents I've ever read on any WS case.

RA deserves better representation than these 2 clowns even if I do think he's guilty. I believe in a Defendant's right to a fair and vigorous defense, which is exactly opposite of what B&R were doing for him. It's unfair to RA, the families of these innocent victims, the court and all involved in this Case. I hope they get disbarred personally.

MOO

Gull said in the presser Rozzi was going to agree to withdraw. But we don’t have the proof of that and he disputes it.
 
Because of perception of bias
I think the perception of bias has come from the "former Defense Team'. I don't count anything they say as particularly thoughtful or legitimate.

All Judge's can have a perceived bias whether they come up through the ranks from the Prosecution side or from the Defense side of the table. I've had those thoughts myself about some Judges, but just because I feel that way doesn't make it true.

Judge Gull has a good record of over 25 years and was appointed to replace the former Judge (who recused himself) by the Indiana State Supreme Court. I'm going to have faith in that decision until proved otherwise.

JMO
 
I'm not clear as to what Gull misled everyone about? In chambers Baldwin agreed to withdraw from the case and made an oral statement to that fact. Rozzi made a statement that he intended to file a written withdrawal which would be provided "within in the next few days". That was recorded and is legal and binding.

This is what Judge Gull spoke to exactly in Open Court directly following that meeting. Now Rozzi is having a change of heart? Too bad, as of the time they left chambers on Oct 19th agreeing to withdraw from representing Defendant Allen, they had no legal standing for filing any further Motions on behalf of him or the case, let alone to file a Motion for Judge Gull's recusal.

The Defense team has been nothing but a showboating, playing fast and loose with letter of the law willy nilly duo since the day they came on board. Their Memorandum in support of the Franks Hearing was enough to get them recused IMO and one of the most exploitive and unethical documents I've ever read on any WS case.

RA deserves better representation than these 2 clowns even if I do think he's guilty. I believe in a Defendant's right to a fair and vigorous defense, which is exactly opposite of what B&R were doing for him. It's unfair to RA, the families of these innocent victims, the court and all involved in this Case. I hope they get disbarred personally.

MOO
bbm

p. 1 of the Verified Notice of Continuing Representation filed by Rozzi, on October 12, JG communicated to D and P, that D “cease work on Mr. Allen’s case” until the parties appeared in court on October 19. This was reasonably seen by the D as a means of disarming them and stripping RA of his 6th Amendment right to counsel, as the order was sua sponte.

According to Wikipedia, sua sponte “"of his, her, its or their own accord") or suo motu ("on its own motion")[1] describes an act of authority taken without formal prompting from another party.[2] The term is usually applied to actions by a judge taken without a prior motion or request from the parties.
<snip>
Common reasons for an action taken sua sponte are when the judge determines that the court does not have subject-matter jurisdiction[4] or that the case should be moved to another judge because of a conflict of interest,[5] even if all parties disagree.”

Under “Notable Cases” there are only 2 in the U.S.: one in the Supreme Court and the other in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit. The 2 notable cases being in a higher court, IMO, reflect the rarity of this type of behavior from JG. Rozzi, who has an impressive career prior to this case, has zero reason to risk his career and make up anything in any of these filings.


JMO analyzation of the information in the D’s motions in addition to JG’s abrupt, unprofessional behavior adds legitimacy to the D motions.

Trying to get more information (also on p.1), Rozzi contacted the court October 17, 2023 and requested a conference on “what we [the Court, Prosecutor, and Defense Counsel] are trying to accomplish on Thursday, especially in terms in what is expected of us while we are on the record in open court?” The Court responded….telling everyone to be there on October 19, 12:30pm.

I personally find it problematic to assume JG knows more of what Rozzi wanted than Rozzi himself, whom agreed to file something in writing…presumably all of subsequent motions, not including his withdrawal (which again this alleged happening was only stated by JG who conveniently refuses to release the chamber transcripts). These are court appointed defense attorneys, and there should be official filings from these attorneys stating their withdrawal, which still hasn’t happened. Some might say JG’s public camera announcement was in itself unprofessional and should have been done via official filing instead of media charade. JMO.

This is only the first page of that document. I would love to discuss other pages/topics in the motions.

Regardless, it is not for the public to choose who the best D for RA is-every defendant has a right to counsel-it is unconstitutional, IMO, to remove Rozzi when RA has explicitly stated he wants Rozzi on the case. If P had a strong case, they would welcome Rozzi staying on the case so they could successfully prosecute and convict.

Per MLK, It is not possible to be in favor of justice for some people and not be in favor of justice for all people.

For the record, Rozzi or any attorney for that matter, can still represent RA pro bono as private counsel. This is my hope, bc this is what RA wants and because Rozzi did nothing wrong.

Even if he is guilty, he, like everyone else, should be able to make this choice. This is why the 6th Amendment exists.

JMO
 

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Gull said in the presser Rozzi was going to agree to withdraw. But we don’t have the proof of that and he disputes it.
We just are not privy to that transcript. When she addressed Open Court that very day her exact words were:

"The Defense Attorneys have withdrawn their representation of Mr. Allen. Mr. Baldwin made an oral motion to withdraw, I granted that Motion to Withdraw and Mr, Rozzi will be submitting his written Motion to withdraw I'm assuming within the next couple of days."


MOO
 
bbm

p. 1 of the Verified Notice of Continuing Representation filed by Rozzi, on October 12, JG communicated to D and P, that D “cease work on Mr. Allen’s case” until the parties appeared in court on October 19. This was reasonably seen by the D as a means of disarming them and stripping RA of his 6th Amendment right to counsel, as the order was sua sponte.

According to Wikipedia, sua sponte “"of his, her, its or their own accord") or suo motu ("on its own motion")[1] describes an act of authority taken without formal prompting from another party.[2] The term is usually applied to actions by a judge taken without a prior motion or request from the parties.
<snip>
Common reasons for an action taken sua sponte are when the judge determines that the court does not have subject-matter jurisdiction[4] or that the case should be moved to another judge because of a conflict of interest,[5] even if all parties disagree.”

Under “Notable Cases” there are only 2 in the U.S.: one in the Supreme Court and the other in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit. The 2 notable cases being in a higher court, IMO, reflect the rarity of this type of behavior from JG. Rozzi, who has an impressive career prior to this case, has zero reason to risk his career and make up anything in any of these filings.


JMO analyzation of the information in the D’s motions in addition to JG’s abrupt, unprofessional behavior adds legitimacy to the D motions.

Trying to get more information (also on p.1), Rozzi contacted the court October 17, 2023 and requested a conference on “what we [the Court, Prosecutor, and Defense Counsel] are trying to accomplish on Thursday, especially in terms in what is expected of us while we are on the record in open court?” The Court responded….telling everyone to be there on October 19, 12:30pm.

I personally find it problematic to assume JG knows more of what Rozzi wanted than Rozzi himself, whom agreed to file something in writing…presumably all of subsequent motions, not including his withdrawal (which again this alleged happening was only stated by JG who conveniently refuses to release the chamber transcripts). These are court appointed defense attorneys, and there should be official filings from these attorneys stating their withdrawal, which still hasn’t happened. Some might say JG’s public camera announcement was in itself unprofessional and should have been done via official filing instead of media charade. JMO.

This is only the first page of that document. I would love to discuss other pages/topics in the motions.

Regardless, it is not for the public to choose who the best D for RA is-every defendant has a right to counsel-it is unconstitutional, IMO, to remove Rozzi when RA has explicitly stated he wants Rozzi on the case. If P had a strong case, they would welcome Rozzi staying on the case so they could successfully prosecute and convict.

Per MLK, It is not possible to be in favor of justice for some people and not be in favor of justice for all people.

For the record, Rozzi or any attorney for that matter, can still represent RA pro bono as private counsel. This is my hope, bc this is what RA wants and because Rozzi did nothing wrong.

Even if he is guilty, he, like everyone else, should be able to make this choice. This is why the 6th Amendment exists.

JMO
I appreciate your reply but do not agree. A State Appointed Defense Lawyer can be removed by the presiding Judge, especially for gross misconduct. It's not common, but it can happen.

The State must provide The Defendant a right to counsel if they cannot afford one, not one of his liking or choosing, but one qualified to represent a vigorous defense of his case. RA said he cannot afford to pay for legal representation and for all of Rozzi's blowhard-ness, I doubt he'll be willing to represent Defendant Allen pro bono, well, unless he has a book or film deal lined or thought up to regain his monetary losses. Just a thought.

The transcript of the hearing in the Judge's chamber is private, there is a gag order in place. How can you, me or anyone say Rozzi did nothing wrong? The action of withdrawing these lawyers is highly unusual and would not taken lightly by any Judge in any Court, even if only for potential appellate issues. I believe Judge Gull made her decision based on proven, reliable information into the investigation of the leaked CS photos and possibly other matters by ISP.

I guess we'll just have to wait to see how all the legal mayhem shakes out in the end. Unfortunate for the truly innocent victims here:

Abigail Williams and Liberty German & their families and loved ones.

As always, JMO
 
Defense attorney weighs in on Scremin:
Shay Hughes
@publicdefender_

Court would be better served appointing someone who has not publicly commented. His comment about tool marking is troubling as this evidence will be heavily relied upon by the State. Summarily, his comments are favorable to the prosecution. Folks are going to question his representation given this interview. #RobertAllen #Delphi #DelphiMurders #TrueCrime

Like in this pro-prosecution interview from Nov 2022 where he claims ~3:15min the unspent cartridge is damning evidence, when there is debate among the ballistics community whether ejector marks are reliable to identify an individual gun? And when there’s no apparent chain of custody for the unspent cartridge (per D memo)?

 
I appreciate your reply but do not agree. A State Appointed Defense Lawyer can be removed by the presiding Judge, especially for gross misconduct. It's not common, but it can happen.

The State must provide The Defendant a right to counsel if they cannot afford one, not one of his liking or choosing, but one qualified to represent a vigorous defense of his case. RA said he cannot afford to pay for legal representation and for all of Rozzi's blowhard-ness, I doubt he'll be willing to represent Defendant Allen pro bono, well, unless he has a book or film deal lined or thought up to regain his monetary losses. Just a thought.

The transcript of the hearing in the Judge's chamber is private, there is a gag order in place. How can you, me or anyone say Rozzi did nothing wrong? The action of withdrawing these lawyers is highly unusual and would not taken lightly by any Judge in any Court, even if only for potential appellate issues. I believe Judge Gull made her decision based on proven, reliable information into the investigation of the leaked CS photos and possibly other matters by ISP.

I guess we'll just have to wait to see how all the legal mayhem shakes out in the end. Unfortunate for the truly innocent victims here:

Abigail Williams and Liberty German & their families and loved ones.

As always, JMO
I appreciate your response and willingness to discuss. I agree that we don’t know what happened in chambers, so how do we know Rozzi did anything wrong anymore than we didn’t?

Per 6th Amendment-Assistance of Counsel Clause-Choice of Counsel (link below):

(bbm)

“Subject to considerations such as conflicts of interest,[5] scheduling, counsel's authorization to practice law in the jurisdiction, and counsel's willingness to represent the defendant (whether pro bono or for a fee),[6] criminal defendants have a right to be represented by counsel of their choice. The remedy for erroneous deprivation of first choice counsel is automatic reversal.“
The bold automatic reversal, means conviction reversal, and cites United States v. Gonzalez-Lopez, 548 U.S. 140 (2006) “a United States Supreme Court ruling that the erroneous deprivation of a defendant's attorney of choice entitles him to a reversal of his conviction under the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution.”
 
Gull said in the presser Rozzi was going to agree to withdraw. But we don’t have the proof of that and he disputes it.
It wasn’t a presser. She went on the record. He wasn’t in Court at the defendant’s table sitting where he should have been on the 19th….I presume because he left. If he didn’t resign on the 19th he should have been sitting in that courtroom demanding his client be brought in from lock up for a hearing.

JMO
 
I appreciate your response and willingness to discuss. I agree that we don’t know what happened in chambers, so how do we know Rozzi did anything wrong anymore than we didn’t?

RSBM


Motion to Disqualify | PDF Host

Please review section 13 - BR states he was coerced to make an oral statement to withdraw.

So while the matter of whether he was coerced or not remains per his own executed motion he did indeed make a statement to withdraw in chambers on October 19th.
 
bbm

p. 1 of the Verified Notice of Continuing Representation filed by Rozzi, on October 12, JG communicated to D and P, that D “cease work on Mr. Allen’s case” until the parties appeared in court on October 19. This was reasonably seen by the D as a means of disarming them and stripping RA of his 6th Amendment right to counsel, as the order was sua sponte.

According to Wikipedia, sua sponte “"of his, her, its or their own accord") or suo motu ("on its own motion")[1] describes an act of authority taken without formal prompting from another party.[2] The term is usually applied to actions by a judge taken without a prior motion or request from the parties.
<snip>
Common reasons for an action taken sua sponte are when the judge determines that the court does not have subject-matter jurisdiction[4] or that the case should be moved to another judge because of a conflict of interest,[5] even if all parties disagree.”

Under “Notable Cases” there are only 2 in the U.S.: one in the Supreme Court and the other in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit. The 2 notable cases being in a higher court, IMO, reflect the rarity of this type of behavior from JG. Rozzi, who has an impressive career prior to this case, has zero reason to risk his career and make up anything in any of these filings.


JMO analyzation of the information in the D’s motions in addition to JG’s abrupt, unprofessional behavior adds legitimacy to the D motions.

Trying to get more information (also on p.1), Rozzi contacted the court October 17, 2023 and requested a conference on “what we [the Court, Prosecutor, and Defense Counsel] are trying to accomplish on Thursday, especially in terms in what is expected of us while we are on the record in open court?” The Court responded….telling everyone to be there on October 19, 12:30pm.

I personally find it problematic to assume JG knows more of what Rozzi wanted than Rozzi himself, whom agreed to file something in writing…presumably all of subsequent motions, not including his withdrawal (which again this alleged happening was only stated by JG who conveniently refuses to release the chamber transcripts). These are court appointed defense attorneys, and there should be official filings from these attorneys stating their withdrawal, which still hasn’t happened. Some might say JG’s public camera announcement was in itself unprofessional and should have been done via official filing instead of media charade. JMO.

This is only the first page of that document. I would love to discuss other pages/topics in the motions.

Regardless, it is not for the public to choose who the best D for RA is-every defendant has a right to counsel-it is unconstitutional, IMO, to remove Rozzi when RA has explicitly stated he wants Rozzi on the case. If P had a strong case, they would welcome Rozzi staying on the case so they could successfully prosecute and convict.

Per MLK, It is not possible to be in favor of justice for some people and not be in favor of justice for all people.

For the record, Rozzi or any attorney for that matter, can still represent RA pro bono as private counsel. This is my hope, bc this is what RA wants and because Rozzi did nothing wrong.

Even if he is guilty, he, like everyone else, should be able to make this choice. This is why the 6th Amendment exists.

JMO
Rossi has a conflict of interest and malpractice exposure, and a former client that is allegedly not capable of consent to continued representation. I think he is smart enough to know he can no longer represent this client without risking his law license and/or his insurance coverage. He’s creating a written record for himself…this is not about his client at this point IMO.

JMO
 
I want Justice for Libby and Abby with a conviction that cannot be overturned. Six yrs later, and it's a whirlwind of drama since June when docs were unsealed. Is it true that all the P has to prove is that RA is BG and he kidnapped the two girls leading to their ultimate demise? Felony murder x 2

On FEB 20, 2017, a member downloaded the BG image from Heavy.com where I can see the left eye.

On FEB 20, 2017, we were allowed to use the video below filmed on MHB that was uploaded to YT OCT 25, 2016.

In 2017, as today, I think more than one person was involved. The DA does, too, or he did, as late as NOV 2022 when he fought to have case records sealed.

SEPT 28, 2022 ISP ended the search at the Wabash River which finally stopped LEs pursuit into RSOs, TK, and KK in the area that the Investigation focused on for years. One month later, on

OCT 28, 2022, one year ago today, Richard Allen was arrested.

 
RSBM


Motion to Disqualify | PDF Host

Please review section 13 - BR states he was coerced to make an oral statement to withdraw.

So while the matter of whether he was coerced or not remains per his own executed motion he did indeed make a statement to withdraw in chambers on October 19th.
Thanks. So if both of them orally withdrew in the chamber together, why did the judge say BR would be turning in a written statement in the next couple of days? Why would only 1 of them be turning in a written statement to withdrawal and not both?
 
Thanks. So if both of them orally withdrew in the chamber together, why did the judge say BR would be turning in a written statement in the next couple of days? Why would only 1 of them be turning in a written statement to withdrawal and not both?
Perhaps to allow BR the opportunity to create some form of written record that might be helpful to him in the event of having to defend a possible malpractice claim down the road (re: a claim on the basis of his withdrawal…since it doesn’t sound like he has anything to do with the alleged disclosure of client information)?

Perhaps the other one may have been just grateful to be allowed to withdraw privately and not subject to a disqualification inquiry on the record…since his actions or inactions seem to be at the center of the allegations.

JMO
 
Thanks. So if both of them orally withdrew in the chamber together, why did the judge say BR would be turning in a written statement in the next couple of days? Why would only 1 of them be turning in a written statement to withdrawal and not both?
According to judges statement on record one made an oral motion to withdraw ( AB) and it was granted and the other (BR) had orally withdrawn and would put it in written form to be recorded shortly thereafter.
Also in the judge’s statement on record they discussed that the defendant would need replacement defense team and how the transfer of the discovery would occur. So it appears there was no confusion that the defense was withdrawing and would not continue to represent RA. Further evidenced by their hasty retreat and non appearance in the courtroom.
 
According to judges statement on record one made an oral motion to withdraw ( AB) and it was granted and the other (BR) had orally withdrawn and would put it in written form to be recorded shortly thereafter.
Also in the judge’s statement on record they discussed that the defendant would need replacement defense team and how the transfer of the discovery would occur. So it appears there was no confusion that the defense was withdrawing and would not continue to represent RA. Further evidenced by their hasty retreat and non appearance in the courtroom.
So it was granted to AB bc he made an oral motion to withdraw, but BR didn’t make an oral motion to withdraw, and agreed to make a formal motion to withdraw in written form (he kinda unofficially orally withdrew)? I thought something official was suppose to be put in writing regardless, from both attorneys? It’s a bit confusing.
 
So it was granted to AB bc he made an oral motion to withdraw, but BR didn’t make an oral motion to withdraw, and agreed to make a formal motion to withdraw in written form (he kinda unofficially orally withdrew)? I thought something official was suppose to be put in writing regardless, from both attorneys? It’s a bit confusing
That is my understanding from the materials that I referred to.
 
So if B & R didn’t want to resign as counsel, why the heck did they leave the Courtroom on the 19th? What were they so darn afraid of? Defense attorneys are not easily rattled…a Judge could threaten to send them to jail for contempt and most wouldn’t even so much as flinch.

These guys represent criminals for a living…most have worked as prosecutors at one time, prosecutors don’t scare them, cops sure as heck don’t scare them, they know how to work the system, and most are very confident (borderline arrogant at times). Even non criminal lawyers are generally not adverse to uncomfortable situations…not sure there is any lawyer that hasn’t been cussed out (probably multiple times) by opposing counsel, or pissed off the Court at some point. It’s generally not something that calls for running off with your own lawyer, to the detriment of one’s client.

There has to be more to the story here.

JMO

You make an excellent point. R comes across as a weak-kneed junior, not a skilled and aggressive defense attorney. Especially if indeed he had no knowledge of the leak and that was the main issue, as he tells it just doesn’t jive. What is missing is what specifically forced and coerced him to quit as opposed to him daring the judge to “shame him in public”, if he did nothing wrong obviously it would be impossible for him to be “shamed”. Instead he chose to quit.

BBM
"(E)ither voluntarily withdraw their appearances and exit the courthouse in advance of the hearing," Rozzi wrote about the Oct. 19 in-chamber hearing in Fort Wayne, "or ... participate in the 2:00 p.m. hearing in the courtroom where a media camera was installed, the national media was present, and the law enforcement community was seated in the jury box directly behind defense counsel, at which time the Court would read the the prepared statement into the record and then disqualify both Attorney Rozzi and Attorney Baldwin in the presences of Defendant Allen, his family and the general public."

"... Attorney Rozzi's oral acquiescence to withdraw his appearance as Defendant Allen's attorney was forced, coerced and driven only by the circumstances created by the Tribunal which delivered two terrible options: quit or be shamed in public before being 'disqualified' from representing Mr. Allen," Rozzi wrote in his notice to the court to continue representing Allen, calling the court's threat to frame their advocacy as "gross negligence."….”
 
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