IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[TL4S]

Ugh, you're right, I had that wrong in all of those. Sorry about that. Not sure how I managed to get that wrong while having all those docs open. Thank you.

Totally agree that I find the sightings by people driving to be a lot less credible than the people who were actually on the ground. Plus, for any eyewitness you don't know what type of mistakes they are making such as thinking they are remembering one lot but are thinking of another lot, or just totally mistaking the type of car. I personally don't think I could ever recall a type of car I saw sitting in a lot as I drove by, but as I'm a city dweller perhaps it's different for people in a more rural area who may be more accustomed to recognizing a neighbor by their car or don't see so many cars parked all over the streets. I do think it benefits the D that the person on the ground, BB, didn't seem to have a matching description to the car of RA, IMO.

That's why the witness who said the car looked like a '65 Comet is significant to me, because she said she noticed it because her father used to own a car like it. I can see that as a reason for a specific vehicle to stand out to somebody. Yet that part was left out of the affidavit, even though it was a key witness to the man on the bridge. JMO.

 

[CGBSpender]

Ugh, you're right, I had that wrong in all of those. Sorry about that. Not sure how I managed to get that wrong while having all those docs open. Thank you.

Totally agree that I find the sightings by people driving to be a lot less credible than the people who were actually on the ground. Plus, for any eyewitness you don't know what type of mistakes they are making such as thinking they are remembering one lot but are thinking of another lot, or just totally mistaking the type of car. I personally don't think I could ever recall a type of car I saw sitting in a lot as I drove by, but as I'm a city dweller perhaps it's different for people in a more rural area who may be more accustomed to recognizing a neighbor by their car or don't see so many cars parked all over the streets. I do think it benefits the D that the person on the ground, BB, didn't seem to have a matching description to the car of RA, IMO.

HAHA! This case makes me realize how poorly I pay attention...I could not tell you anything about cars parked at various places that I pass while driving around...or people that I pass by while out walking.

I really wonder if this is not an area where LE has held back evidence from public disclosure. I mean, they've known from the beginning that at least BB saw an oddly parked car at CPS...and I'm pretty sure that as of Feb. of 2017 ISP vehicles were equipped with dash cams (perhaps other LE as well)...what are the chances that not one single LE vehicle with a working dash cam drove that stretch of IN25 that date between Noon and 4pm and capture a shot of that CPS lot? Or if not ISP...one of the many commercial vehicles traveling IN25 on that date?

JMO

 

[Ward Thisperer]

HAHA! This case makes me realize how poorly I pay attention...I could not tell you anything about cars parked at various places that I pass while driving around...or people that I pass by while out walking.

I really wonder if this is not an area where LE has held back evidence from public disclosure. I mean, they've known from the beginning that at least BB saw an oddly parked car at CPS...and I'm pretty sure that as of Feb. of 2017 ISP vehicles were equipped with dash cams (perhaps other LE as well)...what are the chances that not one single LE vehicle with a working dash cam didn't drive by the CPS lot on via IN25 that date between Noon and 4pm and capture a shot of that CPS lot? Or if not ISP...one of the many commercial vehicles traveling IN25 on that date?

JMO

Yup great questions. I was also thinking, they mention video of RA's car approaching CPS lot at 1:27pm. Do they have any other video nearby of a car matching RA's appearing to approach the area or exit the area close to either 12pm, 1:30pm, or 4pm? Could the video of RA arriving actually be RA leaving, and that he had actually parked in the Mears lot and gone on a longer walk that took him to FB and back to MHB? (The PCA only says he said in 2017 that he parked at the "old Farm Bureau building" which I agree does sound most likely to mean the old CPS building but could also mean more like he parked close to a farm. There is no info mentioned about where he parked from his 2022 interview.) Were any other small black cars seen in the area that day? Even if they didn't have video directly of the CPS lot at any time that day, that area seems busy and populated enough that there has to be some other camera that caught something relevant, IMO.

 

[sunshineray]

These 2 (Corley/Schumm) represent the organization of Indiana's Public Defenders, and the Amicus Brief that group submitted which claimed this group of public defenders have a stake/standing in this case ... and have asked for their Amicus to be accepted and to appear as counsel repping ... ostensibly ... all of Indiana Public Defender Council's organization members - apparently to be able to present their arguments.

Not sure if there will be a live hearing at SCOIN?
Or if the SCION just deliberates off all the brief's arguments and evidence when they review/consider these motions.

So is that what that notice filing mentioning "defect" was about, or was it something else?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Yup great questions. I was also thinking, they mention video of RA's car approaching CPS lot at 1:27pm. Do they have any other video nearby of a car matching RA's appearing to approach the area or exit the area close to either 12pm, 1:30pm, or 4pm? Could the video of RA arriving actually be RA leaving, and that he had actually parked in the Mears lot and gone on a longer walk that took him to FB and back to MHB? (The PCA only says he said in 2017 that he parked at the "old Farm Bureau building" which I agree does sound most likely to mean the old CPS building but could also mean more like he parked close to a farm. There is no info mentioned about where he parked from his 2022 interview.) Were any other small black cars seen in the area that day? Even if they didn't have video directly of the CPS lot at any time that day, that area seems busy and populated enough that there has to be some other camera that caught something relevant, IMO.

I've always thought that "old Farm Bureau building" was kind of strange. When that info came out, I looked it up on the map and it appeared to have always been in its current location at that time.

RA has lived in Delphi for years, and if he visited the trails, he likely knew it was not the Farm Bureau building.

 

[CGBSpender]

Yup great questions. I was also thinking, they mention video of RA's car approaching CPS lot at 1:27pm. Do they have any other video nearby of a car matching RA's appearing to approach the area or exit the area close to either 12pm, 1:30pm, or 4pm? Could the video of RA arriving actually be RA leaving, and that he had actually parked in the Mears lot and gone on a longer walk that took him to FB and back to MHB? (The PCA only says he said in 2017 that he parked at the "old Farm Bureau building" which I agree does sound most likely to mean the old CPS building but could also mean more like he parked close to a farm. There is no info mentioned about where he parked from his 2022 interview.) Were any other small black cars seen in the area that day? Even if they didn't have video directly of the CPS lot at any time that day, that area seems busy and populated enough that there has to be some other camera that caught something relevant, IMO.

In the narratives attached to various motions by the P, the following is included as coming from RA's 2022 interview:

• "He stated he parked his car on the side of an old building."

According to the statements in those various docs about what BB saw...I believe she claims there were no other cars at the Mears lot trailhead when she arrived...which is around 1:46.

Here's the wild card though in my mind...RA claims he was on his phone watching a stock ticker at the time he was walking the trails. Was he on an app or a website that recorded his gps location...and if so, does one side or the other have that data...and does it help our hurt RA's timeline of events?

The US Marshals seemed to have joined the investigation...it appears around the time of the "change in direction". Those guys are experts at tracking the whereabouts of people...I would be shocked if there isn't evidence concerning location tracking of suspects.

JMO

 

[Emma Peel]

So is that what that notice filing mentioning "defect" was about, or was it something else?

Someone here might have mined the details of the specific "defect", but that wouldn't be me.
(Sorry about that! )

 

[Ward Thisperer]

In the narratives attached to various motions by the P, the following is included as coming from RA's 2022 interview:

• "He stated he parked his car on the side of an old building."

Ooh great info, that does lean toward confirming it was the CPS lot. But also I agree with @FrostedGlass, the location of the Farm Bureau is actually really close to RA's house and had been there since at least 2012, so that is a weird mistake for him to make. Edit: it also could be that Dulin was the one who mistakenly called it the Farm Bureau in his notes

According to the statements in those various docs about what BB saw...I believe she claims there were no other cars at the Mears lot trailhead when she arrived...which is around 1:46.

Here's the wild card though in my mind...RA claims he was on his phone watching a stock ticker at the time he was walking the trails. Was he on an app or a website that recorded his gps location...and if so, does one side or the other have that data...and does it help our hurt RA's timeline of events?

The US Marshals seemed to have joined the investigation...it appears around the time of the "change in direction". Those guys are experts at tracking the whereabouts of people...I would be shocked if there isn't evidence concerning location tracking of suspects.

JMO

One thing re: phone location data that was also sticking out to me after going over the PCA/SWA, that RA gave his phone's MEID number to Dan Dulin when providing his tip in 2017. I find it pretty bizarre, if he is guilty, that he would voluntarily hand over anything that could track his location.

 

[abams]

Someone here might have mined the details of the specific "defect", but that wouldn't be me.
(Sorry about that! )

It was something about their notice of delivery on the filing, but it's been corrected as far as I can tell.
In other updates, the judge has filed a motion requesting more time from the SCOIN to respond.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Lol!!

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

11/09/2023	Motion for Extension of Time to Respond to Petition for Writ of Mandamus and Motion for Transcript Certificate of Service- Electronically Served 11/09/23 Attorney: Stake, Christopher S. Attorney: Gutwein, Matthew R Party: Gull, Frances M. Cutino File Stamp: 11/09/2023
11/09/2023	Response / Objection to Respondents' Motion for Extension of Time Certificate of Service- Electronically Served 11/09/23 Attorney: Wieneke, Cara Schaefer Attorney: Leeman, Mark Kelly Party: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 11/09/2023

 

[duckcat]

Ugh, you're right, I had that wrong in all of those. Sorry about that. Not sure how I managed to get that wrong while having all those docs open. Thank you.

Totally agree that I find the sightings by people driving to be a lot less credible than the people who were actually on the ground. Plus, for any eyewitness you don't know what type of mistakes they are making such as thinking they are remembering one lot but are thinking of another lot, or just totally mistaking the type of car. I personally don't think I could ever recall a type of car I saw sitting in a lot as I drove by, but as I'm a city dweller perhaps it's different for people in a more rural area who may be more accustomed to recognizing a neighbor by their car or don't see so many cars parked all over the streets. I do think it benefits the D that the person on the ground, BB, didn't seem to have a matching description to the car of RA, IMO.

Yes, on your note about remembering cars, that made me register that that’s a change in my daily observations since moving to a more rural area from a city. I drive to the same park several times a week to walk my dog and always take note of the cars. Usually around 3-4 on average. I’m looking because I want to know if any of my neighbors who live in my building are there, which happens quite a bit, and to estimate how many other dogs are on the path. I still remember the make, color, and license plate state, and where they were parked in the lot, of one car from months ago because the occupant was acting strangely. Things stick out easier in rural areas, especially a place like Carroll county everyone seems connected by a few degrees of separation.

 

[Jurisprudence]

It's not unusual for the State AG to decline to represent an Appointed Special Circuit Court Judge (conflict of interest), plus he has his own 'issues' going on at the present. IMO

Genuinely curious, how do we know that the members of disciplinary committee as well as other forum around the state filing to the SC on heir behalf of Rizzo & Baldwin without them asking? I could have well missed something that stated so. It's also possible R&B have proponents working behind the scenes on their behalf.

JMO

I think just about everyone heard Weineke say this on Motta's live (re: AG) [See TL's post upthread IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171]
Moo, she has to be very careful about what she says. I'm surprised she even did the live and hope it does not jeopardize the action. But, that's jmo

ETA: On the second point, putting aside CW's confirmation of it last night, let's assume for argument's sake that they did ask. Is the outcome different? Would a licensed attorney intervene - not even intervene, but start an original action in his or her own name for attorneys some are publicly alleging engaged in malpractice? I don't think so.
jmo

 

[CGBSpender]

One thing re: phone location data that was also sticking out to me after going over the PCA/SWA, that RA gave his phone's MEID number to Dan Dulin when providing his tip in 2017. I find it pretty bizarre, if he is guilty, that he would voluntarily hand over anything that could track his location.

Good point. Something that I've been pondering though...is why is the D so concerned about getting the search warrant tossed out...a decent expert can poke holes in the ballistics tool marking analysis all day long IMO. For a while I was thinking maybe it is the gun itself...like maybe there is an image of it captured on LG's phone or something...but...I have another theory...hear me out...

The search warrant is pretty specific in wanting the 2016 Ford Focus, and a cell phone with a specific number. If I put that together with some tidbits of information in the alleged leaked discovery logs...it makes me wonder...did the 2016 Ford Focus have Ford's Sync 3 infotainment system on it, and if so...did it upgrade in late 2016 to include Google's Android Auto...and if so...did Google and/or a vehicle history log retain a history of gps location data for that vehicle on the date in question?

The other thing that makes me a little suspicious...is that it seems like very little in terms of swabs/cuttings were collected from the car...and only one was even sent to a lab according to the ISP Property Record and Receipt. Maybe they wanted the car for some other reason?

Edit: Also, they waited several days after the ISP firearms report was issued to arrest RA...were they waiting on something else to come back?

JMO

 

[Emma Peel]

ETA: On the second point, putting aside CW's confirmation of it last night, let's assume for argument's sake that they did ask. Is the outcome different? Would a licensed attorney intervene - not even intervene, but start an original action for attorneys that the other member whose post you are following up has alleged engaged in malpractice? I don't think so.
jmo

RSBM this 2nd point ... to say: Great 2nd point here. MOO

 

[Jurisprudence]

RSBM this 2nd point ... to say: Great 2nd point here. MOO

Thanks. It just defies logic to think another licensed professional would butt into this if they believed what has been alleged. It makes no sense to me for me to put myself on the line for someone if that person or persons so egregiously ran afoul of the rules. I wouldn't do it. I'd stay out of it.

jmo

 

[CGBSpender]

Thanks. It just defies logic to think another licensed professional would butt into this if they believed what has been alleged. It makes no sense to me for me to put myself on the line for someone if that person or persons so egregiously ran afoul of the rules. I wouldn't do it. I'd stay out of it.

jmo

I think you misunderstood my post. I'll try again...there are obviously allegations of unclean hands on the part of JG and the former D...as someone else put it...it's a mess. JG is alleging the former D was grossly negligent. The former D is alleging that JG is exceeding her authority and not following procedure. It is possible that both could be true. If a Judge is overstepping, regardless of the reasons they claim justify it...I can see other practitioners stepping in and wanting to make sure that a bad precedence is not set that will affect them down the road. I can also see certain practitioners who may make their living doing criminal appellate work, who often get client referrals from the defense bar...being compelled to intervene...especially if they think JG screwed up...it makes total sense to me.

JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

Perhaps I didn't articulate it well. I apologize. I think both can be true...I think the former D has some valid arguments about whether or not proper procedure was followed in terms of certain administrative functions of the Court...and I do think the folks filing briefs have a legitimate interest in making sure that any ambiguity or lack of case law on point in the State of Indiana is resolved by the SC in a way that is just and fair....and I also think despite all of that, there still may ultimately be a problem with former D being reinstated. As I think @Emma Peel stated earlier...this is good stuff for those of us that geek out on case law and precedence setting.

Aside from all of that, I think it is possible there is a difference of opinion that is nothing new for the legal profession...one side views it as playing games, and the other side views it as simply good advocacy. To quote one of my favorite movies ...

"If you ask for jail time I'm going to file a motion to dismiss....and if the MTD is denied, I'll file a motion in limine seeking to obtain an evidentiary ruling in advance....and after that I'm going to file against pretrial confinement...and you're going to spend the next three months going blind on paperwork because a signalman second class bought and smoked a dime bag of oregano."- Lt. Daniel Kaffee (A Few Good Men)

JMO

I respect that answer but I disagree that this is a mere difference of opinion between parties. Imo, some extraordinarily odd and abnormal things have been happening in this case that are not par for the course in pre-trial proceedings. And, now it's on everyone's radar. And, now distrust has been sewn throughout (no matter which way this goes or which side you're on). It's a mess. And, it's been said many times, last night included but also a few threads back, you can't unring this bell. So something has to be done to restore the trust. If you heard CW last night she didn't sound so convinced JG would be removed despite all the procedural anomalies. In fact, she made it a point to state that she is generally well regarded and respected and further stated that there is still a chance that the sup ct can decline to proceed to oral argument after they read the reply briefs. It's in the live that is posted a few times in this thread if you haven't already seen it.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

Lol!!

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

11/09/2023	Motion for Extension of Time to Respond to Petition for Writ of Mandamus and Motion for Transcript Certificate of Service- Electronically Served 11/09/23 Attorney: Stake, Christopher S. Attorney: Gutwein, Matthew R Party: Gull, Frances M. Cutino File Stamp: 11/09/2023 View attachment 459364View attachment 459365View attachment 459366
11/09/2023	Response / Objection to Respondents' Motion for Extension of Time Certificate of Service- Electronically Served 11/09/23 Attorney: Wieneke, Cara Schaefer Attorney: Leeman, Mark Kelly Party: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 11/09/2023 View attachment 459368View attachment 459369View attachment 459370View attachment 459367

Translation: We're not producing it. We're writing a response. This is just a guess. Pure speculation.

 

[TL4S]

Translation: We're not producing it. We're writing a response. This is just a guess. Pure speculation.

Now that it has been confirmed that an in-chambers recording was made, and exists, the fact that the judge doesn't seem to want to release it, even to RA, concerns me. What was in there that she is trying to protect? As with so many things in this case, the secrecy leads to speculation, which I'm not even going to get into. But even if we in the public don't need to see those transcripts, RA has a right to them, since that meeting is what led to the loss of his counsel. So again, WHAT is JG trying to protect that would have likely come out anyway at the hearing had AB and BR chosen to go into the courtroom that day?

 

[CGBSpender]

I respect that answer but I disagree that this is a mere difference of opinion between parties. Imo, some extraordinarily odd and abnormal things have been happening in this case that are not par for the course in pre-trial proceedings. And, now it's on everyone's radar. And, now distrust has been sewn throughout (no matter which way this goes or which side you're on). It's a mess. And, it's been said many times, last night included but also a few threads back, you can't unring this bell. So something has to be done to restore the trust. If you heard CW last night she didn't sound so convinced JG would be removed despite all the procedural anomalies. In fact, she made it a point to state that she is generally well regarded and respected and further stated that there is still a chance that the sup ct can decline to proceed to oral argument after they read the reply briefs. It's in the live that is posted a few times in this thread if you haven't already seen it.

jmo

I actually don't think our views are all that far apart. I agree with everything you are saying here. From what I know, CW is a very good appellate practitioner. This is her wheelhouse and I would suspect that her crystal ball on how these issues might shake out is pretty on point.

JMO