IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[katydid23]

But if that was what they did, then they did it brilliantly. They've taken the heat off of RA as the accused and garnered a lot of sympathy for him as an unconvicted accused rotting in a prison cell. They've drawn attention to the issues of other possible suspects, and brought awareness to errors of file sealing / lack thereof and issues around lack of timely decision making. Do I think they're blameless? No. Do I like how they did it? No. But they definitely drew attention off their client and got him sympathy.

What if he turns out to be guilty of this double murder? Will you still consider them brilliant and applaud them for gaining sympathy for him?

 

[katydid23]

I've said this before!! A man who hasn't yet been found guilty of anything is rotting in a prison cell for over a year now. It is still a year before his case might be finally heard. This is not acceptable! Would you be cool with this if this were YOUR loved one who MIGHT be innocent? Would you be ok with this if YOU were RA (and you were innocent)? I would not be. I'd like to see this case tried expediently.

Should ALL murder suspects be released on bail?

 

[Emma Peel]

She isn’t keeping it secret. It will be filed with her response. We don’t need to see it in the meantime.

With respect, another take on this is that Gull was and continues to keep the in-chambers record secret ... and we're are simply assuming she'll submit the in-chambers record along with her narrative answers and related exhibits. (Degree of redacting unknown.)

Alternatively, there's also room for Gull to argue/reason against releasing the in-chambers record to RA "at this time". (Maybe released to SCION only.)

 

[photographer4]

I think he was trying to tell his wife and his mother so they could also face the truth. Denial is real and most family members cannot fathom a loved one could commit such a heinous crime. His daughter is noticeably absent. He could spare her finding out horrific things about her father in detail.
Also, since he had access to discovery documents wouldn’t he then know about evidence that had been held back from the public?
I don’t think a guard wearing a patch had any bearing on RA’s confession. Although I think it’s ridiculous that a guard would be permitted to wear such a thing.

It is interesting to me that knowing what evidence the prosecution has, RA has yet to ask for a plea deal (that we're aware of anyhow - perhaps he has expressed a desire to do so to his past or present counsel and we're as yet unaware)?. You'd think that he would be begging for this knowing death penalty is on the line no?

 

[zh0r4]

Personally, I have issue assuming LEOs Click, Ferency, and Murphy are lying. The former D Franks memo goes off LE information. It is not like they made it up. Here’s a list, cited with page numbers.
AJMO

Those whom believe more than one perp committed the murders:

(1) TC (now Ret. Rushville Assistant Police Chief)

(2) GF (Detective)

(3) KM (Detective)

(4) ToL (Carrol Co. Chief Dep Sheriff); who believes there are “at least 2” perps in his deposition 8/9/2023. ToL also stated he and TL privately discussed more than 1 perp, although TL did not stray from 1 perp in his deposition 8/8/2023. (p.43-44 of the def memo, which is also cited).

-Click directly sent letter re: exculpatory evidence to Prosecutor McLeland (Carroll
Co.) May 1 2023 after being concerned evidence was not being given to the prosecution (p. 6).

-KM (Detective), GF (Detective), TC (former/Ret. Rushville Assistant Police Chief)
TC directly sent letter re: exculpatory evidence to Prosecutor McLeland (Carroll Co.) May 1 2023. (p. 6)

Deposed by Defense:

TC (April 2023),

ISP JH (between April-Aug 28 2023)

Carrol Co. Sheriff TL (Dep. 8/8/2023)

Carrol Co. Chief Dep Sheriff - ToL (Dep 8/9/2023)

According to CC Sheriff TL, the “Unified Command” (Delphi investigation task force) includes:

Carrol County:

(1) TL

(2) KH

ISP:

(3) JH

(4) JHa

(5) DV

**(6) FBI: RD (No longer part of the task force as of 2022)

-According to JH in his deposition, ISP Superintendent DC kicked the FBI off the Delphi murder case in 2021 due to some conflict (JH depo, p. 123-130); TL claimed in his depo he was unaware the FBI was ever kicked off (TL depo, p. 64, lines 14-25;
p. 9-10).

Source:
DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

 

[zh0r4]

You stated that the prosecution withheld evidence and failed to investigate suspects... Where is the evidence for that outside the Franks motion?

MOO

LE Todd Click’s e-mail correspondence with McLeland.

The Purdue Professor they allegedly couldn’t find who they lied abt saying he said the murders weren’t ritualistic.

Attorneys for Delphi murders suspect identify Purdue professor, say police withheld info

The defense team says the newly filed information supports its claim that Odinists were responsible for the murders of Libby German and Abigail Williams.

www.wndu.com

 

[LaurelTedytamer]

Justice for Abby and Libby, but RA needs a fair trial.

This is a train wreck…before we can even say RA is guilty and lock him away forever we have to have a fair trial with evidence.

Even the pro Prosecution members will admit there needs to be a fair lawful trial enforced by the Judge following the rules. Many people have been alarmed about the Judges record keeping and actions. I worry she is biased and not following protocol.

Then you get into the debates about the Defense their actions. What rights does RA have regarding this and his choice of counsel???

All this needs to be figured out so RA gets a fair trial and if he is convicted doesn’t open a constant opening for appeals.

What if RA was your relative - how would you feel about him being in Westville Correctional Facility in those conditions for so long tased twice?

We need the trial to be fair and follow the rules. Then the evidence will be put forward and RA will be found guilty or not guilty. What if he is actually innocent?

Things need to proceed in a fair way so the evidence is shown and a decision of guilt or innocence made and hopefully all of us want this to happen.

 

[Emma Peel]

What does that murder have to do with this case?

I scoured past articles and FB forums---no c connection that I've seen to Odinism or Delphi murders at all/

The shooter was allegedly mentally ill and had a beef with his victim over his ex girlfriend dating him.

How is that relevant to RA's guilt or innocence?

I think it's pretty obvious that Ferrency's testimony as to the investigation is lost with his untimely death.

Same problem with the deaths of any other LE/investigators that worked this case.

 

[zh0r4]

I think it's pretty obvious that Ferrency's testimony as to the investigation is lost with his untimely death.

Same problem with the deaths of any other LE/investigators that worked this case.

Like ISP Trooper Stephanie Thompson, 23 year ISP veteran, wife of White Circuit Judge Jason Thompson who conducted polygraph for POI EF’s sister(s) (& her daughter) who died in a nefarious fire November 2022?

Cause of Indiana house fire that killed state trooper, daughter remains unknown

 

[Ward Thisperer]

This is one thing I found really interested in the latest MS podcast interview with the prosecutors.

In their opinion that defence was far from ready to go to trial in Jan and would have sought a continuance. This is based on the lack of pretrial motions that one would expect to see.

First up, the prelim was quietly dropped. Then they invested lots of time in trying to get the defendant moved based on frankly spurious reasons (I believe valid reasons exist). Then they made the bizarre Franks motion, instead of a genuine franks motion whereby they could have had the hearing by now.

What they haven't done is file any of the expected pre-trial motions e.g around admissibility beyond the Franks motion. We should have been in the middle of those hearings by now.

I think the Prosecutors were either very misinformed or omitting information when they said that. The D have submitted the Franks motion, which was in fact real, and a motion to suppress, it is the judge who hadn’t set hearings on those things or bothered to read them.

That stuff is not relevant to a Franks application though

It does seem relevant to me, imo, because for Frank’s to be successful they need to show not just that Liggett omitted info but that he knowingly lied or presented info without regard for the truth. So, the background info about the investigation and what they viewed as LE willingly suppressing the Odinist/Rushville angle is important background to show that Liggett didn’t simply make mistakes.
I don’t think they organized it the best way but it was also drafted fairly quickly once they had completed their depositions.

 

[Emma Peel]

I'm asking though - WHY does she even need the extension? If a transcript or audio exists, shouldn't that have been an easy thing to hand over? If it does exist, then there should be NO reason why she's delaying on this that I can think of? That should have already been done. I could see if she had handed it over and then asked for time to write a written response as well but to my knowledge, she hasn't done this. She has instead delayed what, twice now?

IMO "context is everything".

Perhaps - on its own - the in-chambers record offers a Hobson's choice with no due process.
But dropped in as an exhibit to a responder narrative ... the in-chambers record appears more ... shall we say ... judicious.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

I'm never sure how sentencing works but I've assumed that he will get LWOP. Whether his murders will run concurrently or consecutively is another question I can't answer. I don't know how parole works but I'd be surprised if he would live long enough to get to that point.

I'd like to see his medical records during the paper-eating episode. Actually, I'd like to see all of his medical records.

Lebrato of the new D did say that it wasn't death penalty or LWOP

I understand, but do we know that for a fact or is it only based on what the defense has said publicly? There's plenty of time for everyone to prepare for the trial. No one should be pressuring the state to make a race to trial and judgment. If the defense thinks they didn't get evidence in a timely fashion, they can ask the judge to give them more time to study it and respond. It's fairly simple and straightforward. Everyone needs to slow down and relax. The judge will give everyone the time they need to prepare for the trial. This is a DP case, IIRC and judges are usually careful with those to avoid excessive appeals if the defendant is found guilty.

It isn't DP at least according to Lebrato.
The issue with the timeliness is that the D wants to go to trial (at least according to what they have said so far), they do have a set trial date, and to do that they need to prepare. They have also been doing things like depositions to prepare for the trial, they did I think 6-7 depositions if I am remembering correctly. By the FM filing on 9/18, they had done all those depositions, and were still going to pick up new discovery from the P that very day, with the trial date set less than 5 months later. They said they still hadn't gotten the files of the interviews of 2 of the people that seem to be most important to the D's alternate theory by the time they released the FM. So, not having those materials could have impacted their ability to put together the defense.
Personally, I feel comfortable taking the D's word for things that could be easily proven or disproven to a judge (such as having been given all discovery or specific documents) because being caught actually lying could very much impact their standing as lawyers and they have long careers established. Just IMO, but I understand that others feel they can't assume that of these lawyers.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

In a nutshell yes- because there is very little penalty for doing so. It’s seen as zealous defense, not falsifying documents. It’s their opinion, their strategy and it was drafted for the public not for it to hold water in court.
And it has done exactly what they wanted it to do. They have been applauded in the defense world as geniuses. Yet the public has no way to test the memorandum for truth.
In fact, THE DEFENSE that drafted this memorandum had not yet reviewed all the discovery; therefore they couldn’t have tested it against evidence.
JMO

How interesting then, that the Defense has repeatedly been the one pushing for less secrecy, asking for cameras in the courtroom while the P opposed it, and now trying to get the transcripts out there while JG doesn't want them out there.
In addition, when the Defense first filed the FM, the exhibits not marked confidential were also available by request, so the public could have reviewed them for accuracy had the court not sealed it.
Jmo but I don't think the idea that the D is the party relying on the public not being able to scrutinize their position holds any water.

 

[DeDee]

That "work of art" Franks Memo had to be good for at least $40,000 in billables. I feel like they've got to be hitting close to six figures at this point if not more.

JMO

When the Defense Team was initially relieved of their duties, I began watching headlines for the expenses to date but that data is not available yet.

March 28, 2023
Membership in the state public defender commission also brings good news for Carroll County taxpayers.
The commission will reimburse Carroll County for up to 40% of what it spends on Allen’s defense costs – a significant savings for a small county. If, for example, attorneys, defense experts and legal research for Allen were to cost $250,000, the public defender commission would reimburse Carroll County for $100,000 of those expenses.

 

[Betty P]

Lebrato of the new D did say that it wasn't death penalty or LWOP

It isn't DP at least according to Lebrato.
The issue with the timeliness is that the D wants to go to trial (at least according to what they have said so far), they do have a set trial date, and to do that they need to prepare. They have also been doing things like depositions to prepare for the trial, they did I think 6-7 depositions if I am remembering correctly. By the FM filing on 9/18, they had done all those depositions, and were still going to pick up new discovery from the P that very day, with the trial date set less than 5 months later. They said they still hadn't gotten the files of the interviews of 2 of the people that seem to be most important to the D's alternate theory by the time they released the FM. So, not having those materials could have impacted their ability to put together the defense.
Personally, I feel comfortable taking the D's word for things that could be easily proven or disproven to a judge (such as having been given all discovery or specific documents) because being caught actually lying could very much impact their standing as lawyers and they have long careers established. Just IMO, but I understand that others feel they can't assume that of these lawyers.

I was surprised at how quickly they set the trial date. I'm glad its farther out now. But there are ways that the D can get an extension, going through the standard procedures. Judges understand the need for defense to review discovery evidence. In fact, there may continue to be new discovery coming from the prosecution. It happens, they uncover something new during the lead up to trial, they investigate it, etc. and submit it.

Complaining about the prosecution not giving them new discovery in a timely way is a common defense argument. Sometimes its accurate, sometimes not. But its a routine complaint and judges are there to solve it by giving D extra time if they ask. Not a crisis, not a big deal.

Most states and the ABA have standards and guidelines for defense teams representing clients in death penalty cases (if this ends up being one). They have things like lists of motions to file, etc. They're designed to protect the rights of defendants, ensure a fair trial and reduce the need for extensive appeals.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/committees/death_penalty_representation/

 

[Derph]

Justice for Abby and Libby, but RA needs a fair trial.

This is a train wreck…before we can even say RA is guilty and lock him away forever we have to have a fair trial with evidence.

Even the pro Prosecution members will admit there needs to be a fair lawful trial enforced by the Judge following the rules. Many people have been alarmed about the Judges record keeping and actions. I worry she is biased and not following protocol.

Then you get into the debates about the Defense their actions. What rights does RA have regarding this and his choice of counsel???

All this needs to be figured out so RA gets a fair trial and if he is convicted doesn’t open a constant opening for appeals.

What if RA was your relative - how would you feel about him being in Westville Correctional Facility in those conditions for so long tased twice?

We need the trial to be fair and follow the rules. Then the evidence will be put forward and RA will be found guilty or not guilty. What if he is actually innocent?

Things need to proceed in a fair way so the evidence is shown and a decision of guilt or innocence made and hopefully all of us want this to happen.

Well said!! I'm not comfortable with a lot of things in this case and struggle to remember a case that is so very, very shady in just about every aspect. I already had a bunch of reasonable doubt before any of this courtroom/chambers drama. The whole thing stinks and it's a stain on the memory of those two children.

 

[zh0r4]

When the Defense Team was initially relieved of their duties, I began watching headlines for the expenses to date but that data is not available yet.

March 28, 2023
Membership in the state public defender commission also brings good news for Carroll County taxpayers.
The commission will reimburse Carroll County for up to 40% of what it spends on Allen’s defense costs – a significant savings for a small county. If, for example, attorneys, defense experts and legal research for Allen were to cost $250,000, the public defender commission would reimburse Carroll County for $100,000 of those expenses.

Whoa whoa wait. So prolonging RA’s trial with new PDs is financially beneficial to Carroll County??? If they were able to get reimbursed for $100k/year for PD, and prolonged it for another year, they would then be reimbursed for $200K?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Regarding the Franks Memo: Do the 194 footnotes citing the videos, exhibit numbers, page numbers, etc account for anything in your opinion?

I went through the first 50 pages of the memo and copied the footnotes and pages they were on. I planned to post them, thinking they would be of interest; but I think that would be a waste of time.

Until the things cited in the footnotes are testified to, in court, with sworn witnesses etc, they mean nothing. Without the sworn testimony, everything in the Franks memo, including depositions, is just the ex-defense’s opinion and speculation of what they cite.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Ward Thisperer
You said "Lebrato of the new D did say that it wasn't death penalty or LWOP"

How does he know that?
Does this mean NMcL told him he was only going to charge RA with years?
Doesn't the P have the option of adding charges along the way?

 

[Ward Thisperer]

@Ward Thisperer
You said "Lebrato of the new D did say that it wasn't death penalty or LWOP"

How does he know that?
Does this mean NMcL told him he was only going to charge RA with years?
Doesn't the P have the option of adding charges along the way?

My understanding is that it's based on IN sentencing guidelines. I'm also very curious whether they have the option to add charges or to ask for the DP/LWOP later.
“It’s not a death penalty case or an LWOP (life without parole) case, it’s just a double homicide which we do routinely, unfortunately, here in Allen County. The only impact it will have is the travel time to another county,” Lebrato said Thursday just after the quarterly public defender board meeting held at the Rousseau Centre.

Allen County’s chief public defender says his office is prepared to take on Delphi killings case

Allen County Chief Public Defender William “Billy” Lebrato doesn’t believe the trial will impact the daily work of the department.

www.wane.com

Here is a site with info on when they can add LWOP or DP in IN

Aggravating Circumstances in Indiana Criminal Cases

Learn how aggravating circumstances affect criminal cases, then call Keffer Hirschauer to get a leading Indianapolis defense lawyer on your case.

www.indyjustice.com

Murder is a higher-level charge with more serious potential penalties than any level of felony in Indiana. When the prosecution can prove at least one aggravating circumstance exists, it can request the jury or judge to consider a sentence of life in prison without parole or death. Indiana Code § 35-50-2-9 specifies the conditions that qualify as aggravating circumstances in Indiana murder cases:

• Intentional murder in the course of committing arson, burglary, child molestation, criminal deviate conduct, kidnapping, rape, robbery, carjacking, organized crime, dealing cocaine or other narcotics, or in criminal confinement
• Detonation of an explosive with the intent to cause injury or damages and resulting in death
• Lying in wait to commit murder
• Hiring or being hired to kill another person
• Murder of an officer or others working in an official capacity while the individual is on duty or in retribution for an action performed in the course of duty
• A previous conviction for murder
• Commission of a previous murder, even if not convicted
• Murder committed while in custody, on probation, or on parole
• Murder with dismemberment of the victim
• Mutilation, torture, decapitation, or burning of the victim while still alive
• Murder of a victim under the age of 12
• Murder involving Level 6, 5, 4, or 3 felony battery, kidnapping, criminal confinement, or sexual abuse of the victim
• Murder of a witness against the defendant to prevent testimony
• Murder that results from intentionally firing a weapon into a dwelling or from a vehicle
• Murder of a pregnant victim with intention to kill a viable fetus
• Murder committed on the grounds of an educational institution
• Murder committed in a place of worship

To seek a sentence of life without parole or death in Indiana murder cases, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that at least one aggravating circumstance exists or existed at the time of the crime and that the mitigating factors do not outweigh the aggravating factors in the case.