IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

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I guess there are two ways at looking at what the P hasn’t done. Withholding the evidence on Odinism does not amount to remaining silent because they were ”supposed to.” They failed to disclose important information to the D and they failed to investigate certain individuals. They ignored key parts of a criminal investigation. It’s that simple.

This is not a conspiracy “theory.” Sadly, once one looks at it from that perspective, it’s difficult to shift gears. I’m not saying the P are conspiring, but it appears the majority are discounting the Odinism as “conspiracy theory.” Regrettably, once the pejorative “conspiracy theory” is invoked, it is somehow believed that conspiracies don’t exist at all, which just isn’t the case. I challenge the assumption that this evil does not exist. JMO

Just wondering who claimed the prosecution withheld evidence from the ex-defense about Odinism?
Also I read it that LE did look into the Odinist angle early on and determined it was not the way to go. The ex-defense felt it wasn’t investigated properly. That’s their opinion only. It would have been nice to hear it argued in court.
 
This only works if you unquestioningly believe what was asserted in the Frank's motion, which I very much do not.

MOO
I don’t “unquestioningly“ believe anything, but I do take things seriously when someone is sitting in prison fearing for his life and that of his family. To out of hand discount all of it, would be foolish, IMHO.
 
I don’t “unquestioningly“ believe anything, but I do take things seriously when someone is sitting in prison fearing for his life and that of his family. To out of hand discount all of it, would be foolish, IMHO.
You stated that the prosecution withheld evidence and failed to investigate suspects... Where is the evidence for that outside the Franks motion?

MOO
 
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Agreed, but I’m not talking about revealing everything to the public, I’m speaking of disclosure to the defence which was not done in a timely fashion.
I understand, but do we know that for a fact or is it only based on what the defense has said publicly? There's plenty of time for everyone to prepare for the trial. No one should be pressuring the state to make a race to trial and judgment. If the defense thinks they didn't get evidence in a timely fashion, they can ask the judge to give them more time to study it and respond. It's fairly simple and straightforward. Everyone needs to slow down and relax. The judge will give everyone the time they need to prepare for the trial. This is a DP case, IIRC and judges are usually careful with those to avoid excessive appeals if the defendant is found guilty.
 
Just wondering who claimed the prosecution withheld evidence from the ex-defense about Odinism?
Also I read it that LE did look into the Odinist angle early on and determined it was not the way to go. The ex-defense felt it wasn’t investigated properly. That’s their opinion only. It would have been nice to hear it argued in court.
You may be right on that, but I‘d have to go back into the Frank’s memo. Maybe the info was just buried very deep in discovery.

Regarding LE investigating Odinism is not in question. What is in question is Unified Command’s decision that it had nothing to do with the murders. It appears that after only three weeks they stop that line of investigation. Purdy, who joins the investigation in March 2017 hears nothing of Odinists at that time, but two months later BP mentions that Abby was dating LH whose father is an Odinist. Holeman claims an investigator sent sketches of the crime scene an to an Occult Prof from Purdue and he determined it wasn’t occult related but then later tells Purdy that the Profs report was “inconclusive?” What’s also in question is the identity of this prof and any report he may have produced. It appears nobody knows his name and he cannot be located now? Hmmm…..

Thankfully, Purdy, Ferency and another investigator (his name escapes me at the moment) pursued this line of investigation and turned up some very interesting “stuff.” One can ignore what they found if one chooses, but I personally choose not to :).
 
I understand, but do we know that for a fact or is it only based on what the defense has said publicly? There's plenty of time for everyone to prepare for the trial. No one should be pressuring the state to make a race to trial and judgment. If the defense thinks they didn't get evidence in a timely fashion, they can ask the judge to give them more time to study it and respond. It's fairly simple and straightforward. Everyone needs to slow down and relax. The judge will give everyone the time they need to prepare for the trial. This is a DP case, IIRC and judges are usually careful with those to avoid excessive appeals if the defendant is found guilty.
Do we know for a “fact” that RA is guilty “or is it only based on what the prosecution has said publicly?“

ETA I agree, this needs to go to trial. I also feel RA needs to be moved until that takes place.
 
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Do we know for a “fact” that RA is guilty “or is it only based on what the prosecution has said publicly?“

We do not know that RA is guilty. The gag order prevents us from answering all the remaining questions that would lead us to a conclusion... and we haven't heard the defense's case.

However, many of us HIGHLY SUSPECT he is guilty based on him placing himself at the scene corroborated by eye witnesses on the trail. In addition to reported confessions and partial proof of a matching gun bullet marks at the scene.

The prosecution is 100% sure he did it. I am like 90%
 
You may be right on that, but I‘d have to go back into the Frank’s memo. Maybe the info was just buried very deep in discovery.

Regarding LE investigating Odinism is not in question. What is in question is Unified Command’s decision that it had nothing to do with the murders. It appears that after only three weeks they stop that line of investigation. Purdy, who joins the investigation in March 2017 hears nothing of Odinists at that time, but two months later BP mentions that Abby was dating LH whose father is an Odinist. Holeman claims an investigator sent sketches of the crime scene an to an Occult Prof from Purdue and he determined it wasn’t occult related but then later tells Purdy that the Profs report was “inconclusive?” What’s also in question is the identity of this prof and any report he may have produced. It appears nobody knows his name and he cannot be located now? Hmmm…..

Thankfully, Purdy, Ferency and another investigator (his name escapes me at the moment) pursued this line of investigation and turned up some very interesting “stuff.” One can ignore what they found if one chooses, but I personally choose not to :).

I get what you’re saying.
Just me, I don’t feel comfortable using the Franks memo as a source for anything. To me it‘s all opinion and speculation from the ex-defense, and no facts.
There are some interesting and eye-brow raising things there though, no doubt. I would have loved to seen it argued in court with sworn witnesses, etc., rather than presented this way.
I always appreciate you, susieQ. Thanks for the civil discussion.
 
We do not know that RA is guilty. The gag order prevents us from answering all the remaining questions that would lead us to a conclusion... and we haven't heard the defense's case.

However, many of us HIGHLY SUSPECT he is guilty based on him placing himself at the scene corroborated by eye witnesses on the trail. In addition to reported confessions and partial proof of a matching gun bullet marks at the scene.

The prosecution is 100% sure he did it. I am like 90%
I’m not giving any %. I’ll wait for it to go to trial. I have serious doubts at this point, that’s all.
 
Yes, I agree, they knew disqualification was on the table, NMcL requested that. But shouldn't there have been some kind of official information about what would be covered at the hearing?

Nobody fully knew what the heck was going to be discussed that day, except apparently JG and the prosecution and their witnesses. It just seems one-sided to me. And not because I feel sorry for the D, but because this kind of judicial conduct breeds distrust, just like all the missing documents from the docket.
The judge sent some very long and informative emails discussing the situation in an email group, to both sides.

The D had plenty of notice and plenty of information concerning the upcoming meeting with the judge.

JG is in charge and is responsible for what goes on in this trial and in the case. Imagine her surprise hearing about a tragic suicide of a father and Air Force Officer, after the negligent leak of the sealed discovery docs, from AB's office.

I would be livid if I was the judge.

I don't see the D as the victims here. JMO
 
I get what you’re saying.
Just me, I don’t feel comfortable using the Franks memo as a source for anything. To me it‘s all opinion and speculation from the ex-defense, and no facts.
There are some interesting and eye-brow raising things there though, no doubt. I would have loved to seen it argued in court with sworn witnesses, etc., rather than presented this way.
I always appreciate you, susieQ. Thanks for the civil discussion.
Regarding the Franks Memo: Do the 194 footnotes citing the videos, exhibit numbers, page numbers, etc account for anything in your opinion?

I went through the first 50 pages of the memo and copied the footnotes and pages they were on. I planned to post them, thinking they would be of interest; but I think that would be a waste of time.
 
The D knew the leak would be addressed at the Oct. 19th hearing, and enough for AB to bring a lawyer, but I'm not convinced they knew just exactly what was going to go down. That doesn't seem appropriate conduct for a court proceeding. Jmo.

They apparently did not have any notice that multiple ISP and other LE would be sitting in the courtroom (including DC), or there to testify, or that the D were going to be found to be "grossly negligent" with no official legal citing to kick them off the case under the circumstances. Therefore, they were not able to fully prepare, with witnesses of their own, or have time to understand the extent of the consequences they would face that very day, before cameras and the world, and the ramifications these actions would have on their client and his potential trial, until the in-chambers meeting, which they seemingly wanted recorded.

BR requested for the transcript immediately afterward, and I think he planned to include it in a motion to make it transparent to the public. Jmo.

These guys are not saints and they majorly f'ed up (at least AB did), but regardless, JG does not get a free pass from me on how she decided to handle things in this case. Jmo.
I wonder if the reason LE was there was to testify about the things they'd already found out and when told this in chambers...do you really want this all done in open court?...the D opted to choose option B and knowingly lied to the judge?
I just don't know what to believe with any of this anymore. AJMO
 
Do we know for a “fact” that RA is guilty “or is it only based on what the prosecution has said publicly?“

ETA I agree, this needs to go to trial. I also feel RA needs to be moved until that takes place.

That's what the trial is for. It's held in front of a judge and jury, according to rules and laws, not in chat rooms, podcasts or true crime social media.

Allegations the defense makes about Odinism, Satanism, Buddhism, Pastafarianism, whatever, whether accurate or relevant, will be subjected to cross-examination, prosecution witness testimony, under oath, etc. Perjury rules will apply, with penalties for those caught lying in court. That's where we get a clearer picture of what did and didn't happen. I look forward to the trial, but whatever is being said now, to me, is just argle-bargle. JMO
 
You may be right on that, but I‘d have to go back into the Frank’s memo. Maybe the info was just buried very deep in discovery.

Regarding LE investigating Odinism is not in question. What is in question is Unified Command’s decision that it had nothing to do with the murders. It appears that after only three weeks they stop that line of investigation. Purdy, who joins the investigation in March 2017 hears nothing of Odinists at that time, but two months later BP mentions that Abby was dating LH whose father is an Odinist. Holeman claims an investigator sent sketches of the crime scene an to an Occult Prof from Purdue and he determined it wasn’t occult related but then later tells Purdy that the Profs report was “inconclusive?” What’s also in question is the identity of this prof and any report he may have produced. It appears nobody knows his name and he cannot be located now? Hmmm…..

Thankfully, Purdy, Ferency and another investigator (his name escapes me at the moment) pursued this line of investigation and turned up some very interesting “stuff.” One can ignore what they found if one chooses, but I personally choose not to :).
To note, FBI Agent/Detective Ferency was murdered in 2021 outside of a federal building by a man retired from the Bureau of Prisons, worked at the Federal Prison Complex in Terre Haute, and ran for mayor in 2019. Nothing to see here. JMO.

Indiana man charged with murder after FBI Task Force officer shot outside federal building (7/9/2021)
Indiana man charged with murder after FBI Task Force officer shot outside federal building

Federal Trial of Terre Haute man accused of killing a police officer moved back-here’s why
Federal trial of Terre Haute man accused of killing a police officer moved back - here's why
 
It's not about giving her time; it's about how much time is reasonable. A man deemed innocent in the eyes of the law is in prison.

The judge entered this case with some idea of what a huge one this will be. If she was too busy to give it the attention it needs, then I don't know what to say.

If defense made inflammatory statements, then by all means release the transcript.
I've said this before!! A man who hasn't yet been found guilty of anything is rotting in a prison cell for over a year now. It is still a year before his case might be finally heard. This is not acceptable! Would you be cool with this if this were YOUR loved one who MIGHT be innocent? Would you be ok with this if YOU were RA (and you were innocent)? I would not be. I'd like to see this case tried expediently.
 
P didn't have much of a choice in the situation...P had to ask for the DQ IMO. P sees that there is an issue with the representation based on the facts that might give rise to an argument that the representation would be unethical and unfair to the accused, and as such might jeopardize any conviction that results. The way this is remedied is by the P asking for DQ, and then the D opposing it and getting an agreement from their client that waives any future claims based on the representation conflict. HOWEVER, in this case, JG clearly felt for whatever reason that a waiver from the D's client was not sufficient remedy for the case to move forward with the former D representing him.

JMO
She should now be able to fully explain her reasoning on this matter with the quick production of a transcript and or audio! If these do not exist, why not? If they do exist, then why is she so intent on delaying the hand over?
 
Wasn’t one of reasons the hearing was specifically scheduled to address “recent events”? B and R certainly knew what was going to be talked about and the seriousness of the situation.
There was a week between the hearing being scheduled and the hearing. The prosecution spent their time gathering information and witnesses. What the heck was the ex-defense team doing? They could have done the same but they chose to do nothing. They knew more than anybody how “grossly negligent” they had been. They should have been prepared to explain and defend it all. But they did nothing. There was nothing the prosecution witnesses could have brought up that would have surprised them. I can’t categorize that as an “ambush”.
Frankly, I think the ex-defense did have a plan. It was to do nothing and resign…but not mean it. Then blow everything up with accusations and finger pointing. They admitted as much at the Oct 31st hearing when they told the judge, “yes, we did resign, but we didn’t mean it. It was part of our strategy”. Worked great for them. Nobody is talking about RA, nobody’s talking about leaks and bad behavior. All the talk is about the conniving judge.
I am well aware that the judge has some serious things she needs to explain. I’m also aware that pretty much the only version of events being cited is what the ex-defense says happened in their recent motions. Not the most reliable sources. Because of that I really don’t understand why the judge gets vilified and the ex-defense gets a pass on everything.
But if that was what they did, then they did it brilliantly. They've taken the heat off of RA as the accused and garnered a lot of sympathy for him as an unconvicted accused rotting in a prison cell. They've drawn attention to the issues of other possible suspects, and brought awareness to errors of file sealing / lack thereof and issues around lack of timely decision making. Do I think they're blameless? No. Do I like how they did it? No. But they definitely drew attention off their client and got him sympathy.
 
She should now be able to fully explain her reasoning on this matter with the quick production of a transcript and or audio! If these do not exist, why not? If they do exist, then why is she so intent on delaying the hand over?
Judge Gull is not required to hand over anything except to the SCOIN by the new deadline of Nov 26th.

MOO
 
I hate to be Debbie Downer for folks...and perhaps I'll have to eat my words one day...but IMO you could reinstate the former D, let them hand pick the trial date (for January or whenever), kick JG off the case, put RA in a Hilton with private security...heck you could even replace NM as P on the case...and I still see this case pleading out.

JMO
I don't care if he DOES plead out - that's his choice. If he did it and he pleads out, so be it.
 
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