IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[TL4S]

I think transparency is very difficult if LE is trying to get to the bottom of possibly who else was involved. NMcL did state that it's possible others might be involved. The former D's Franks Memo, for what it is worth, seemed to hammer home the idea that it was unlikely that one person did the crime alone. If the Franks Memo is accurate, then Leazenby told the former D in his deposition that he believed that at least two people were involved. This kind of seems like an area that the P, some LE and former D might agree on...which I think makes it an important possibility to consider.

JMO

Agreed.

 

[susiQ]

What if his family thinks he's innocent? They are still sitting in court on his side.

His wife is aware the guards were wearing Odin patches. Prosecution really needed a confession and it's not a leap, IMO, that the guards could have helped that along by threatening his family.

Regarding his confessions, if he confessed to knowing facts that only the killer would know, then I'll agree that the confessions were not false ones. He would have told those to his wife if he really wanted her to believe him. MOO

Agree. How many of us here, would not confess to ANYTHING if we truly believed one of our beloved family would suffer the same fate as poor Abby and Libby?? I would go to the “chair” to save my family from that. 100 times over.

As far as eating the paper, I’m not sure I would go that far if my mind was in tact, but I doubt RA’s is at this point. I can only imagine he did not want those guards seeing what was in them, fearing the possibility of harm to his family.

”Fear is the currency of control,” as they say. This isn’t a “circus” it’s a nightmare. JMHO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

L

I think transparency is very difficult if LE is trying to get to the bottom of possibly who else was involved. NMcL did state that it's possible others might be involved. The former D's Franks Memo, for what it is worth, seemed to hammer home the idea that it was unlikely that one person did the crime alone. If the Franks Memo is accurate, then Leazenby told the former D in his deposition that he believed that at least two people were involved. This kind of seems like an area that the P, some LE and former D might agree on...which I think makes it an important possibility to consider.

JMO

I am in the fence on whether someone was involved in the act of the crime.
The Frank’s memo play by play had me rolling my eyes hard. Any mother that’s had two children under the age of 4 at the same time knows that the step by step acts described by the memo could absolutely be done by an individual. Especially an individual with weapons and full of adrenaline.
Not to mention that he could forced one of the victims to help with restricting, maneuvering and staging of the other.

 

[susiQ]

I think transparency is very difficult if LE is trying to get to the bottom of possibly who else was involved. NMcL did state that it's possible others might be involved. The former D's Franks Memo, for what it is worth, seemed to hammer home the idea that it was unlikely that one person did the crime alone. If the Franks Memo is accurate, then Leazenby told the former D in his deposition that he believed that at least two people were involved. This kind of seems like an area that the P, some LE and former D might agree on...which I think makes it an important possibility to consider.

JMO

The problem here is, they can’t agree even if they both agree more than one person committed this heinous crime. The P may have admitted privately that more than one was involved, but the D would not agree that RA had anything to do with it at all!

It also begs the question, why would PMcL claim in his deposition that he believed that the crime was committed by only one person (RA), when privately he admitted to TL that he felt it was more than one person. Disingenuous at best, outright deception at worst. JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

What if his family thinks he's innocent? They are still sitting in court on his side.

His wife is aware the guards were wearing Odin patches. Prosecution really needed a confession and it's not a leap, IMO, that the guards could have helped that along by threatening his family.

Regarding his confessions, if he confessed to knowing facts that only the killer would know, then I'll agree that the confessions were not false ones. He would have told those to his wife if he really wanted her to believe him. MOO

I know this might be a bit out there...but I've often thought that maybe the patches were not meant to threaten RA...but...IF directed at RA...perhaps were to elicit trust and a connection with him...or possibly a means of getting him to initiate a conversation with a guard about his beliefs (whatever they may be). If you are looking at it from the standpoint of LE or the prosecution hypothetically trying to induce RA to say something that would improve their case...I think you catch more flies with honey than vinegar...and encouraging a "friendly" relationship with his guards...who are the only people other than his family that he talks to...would be more desirable than trying to manipulate a relationship where he fears his guards (in the hopes that he confesses out of fear).

Something that has always bothered me about the Franks Memo and the claims it makes about RA and his lack of a connection to Odinism or a connection to Odinists....is how can they make those claims when they also claim in the same document to have purposefully avoided discussions with RA about Odinism until about 3 weeks before they filed their Franks memo. The fact that they avoided those discussions with him really caught my attention.

Finally, the Franks Memo makes it sound like RA told his lawyers that the "Odin" guards were going to kill him...but again...I know it's kind of out there...it is not incongruent with the possibility above...because it kind of seems like RA maybe wanted to die (eating paper, and then not eating)...but that he was being prevented from doing so.

Whether RA was concerned about the guards and/or some Odinist harming his family I think takes a big leap in logic from the former D. It's entirely possible that RA is/was concerned for the safety of his family...but it also may have nothing to do with guards or Odinists.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I wonder about this all the time. If there is anyone else involved, though, then I would be interested to know what motivates RA to take the fall and not turn over any names. Is waiting for a plea deal worth it?

While the world is hating on the ex-D and/or JG, the P and LE are flying under the radar. NMcL has never had to answer for his early statement that they have "good reason to believe" others are involved. Most of their evidence is veiled behind gag orders and missing documents on the docket.

The things that the ex-D released are NOT all that flattering to themselves, but at least it's out there for all to see. The story is one-sided right now because the P side is, and always has been, silent. I'm not sure what any of it means, but the P definitely seems to have the upper hand here.

I am NOT suggesting there was any conspiracy, from either side, behind the leak (I think MW intended to share it with only one person, R, and R's sharing it was unforeseen to MW). But, AB's lax office space breach and further conduct, leading to the leak, certainly took everyone's eyes off the Frank's claims against TL et al, and negated everything the ex-D ever said because they are now scum to many.

I'm interested to know, if the new D team stays on, if they will pursue the Frank's claims. Would they not be able to rewrite a Frank's motion (minus the Odinism connection, if they wish)? Because the ex-D and JG fiasco has not dissuaded my curiosity as to if LE made mistakes and omissions. To me, there aren't good and bad guys here, there are laws and rules, and THAT's what I want transparency on. JMO.

Just my thoughts, but I would think that the new defense team could file a new Franks motion if they think it’s warranted. But I would also think that all the motions etc filed by the ex-defense would remain part of the court record for the case.
I think also the prosecution has been silent because they were supposed to be silent, per the gag order. The ex-defense chose to ignore and circumvent the gag order which is why we only have their skewed story.

 

[iamshadow21]

Just my thoughts, but I would think that the new defense team could file a new Franks motion if they think it’s warranted. But I would also think that all the motions etc filed by the ex-defense would remain part of the court record for the case.
I think also the prosecution has been silent because they were supposed to be silent, per the gag order. The ex-defense chose to ignore and circumvent the gag order which is why we only have their skewed story.

Yeah, we can't question the prosecution staying quiet when that's literally what they were told to do months ago by a judge.

MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I am in the fence on whether someone was involved in the act of the crime.
The Frank’s memo play by play had me rolling my eyes hard. Any mother that’s had two children under the age of 4 at the same time knows that the step by step acts described by the memo could absolutely be done by an individual. Especially an individual with weapons and full of adrenaline.
Not to mention that he could forced one of the victims to help with restricting, maneuvering and staging of the other.

I agree.
Initially after the arrest I expected more arrests to follow quickly.
I don’t think that at all now. I feel RA would have ratted out anybody else involved by now.

 

[CGBSpender]

I am in the fence on whether someone was involved in the act of the crime.
The Frank’s memo play by play had me rolling my eyes hard. Any mother that’s had two children under the age of 4 at the same time knows that the step by step acts described by the memo could absolutely be done by an individual. Especially an individual with weapons and full of adrenaline.
Not to mention that he could forced one of the victims to help with restricting, maneuvering and staging of the other.

I hear you. I was on the fence too. What tipped the scales for me was the charging under Felony Murder (as opposed to Intentional Homicide) and NMcL at the same time stating publicly that there is the possibility that others might be involved. To me those two things spoke volumes.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I know this might be a bit out there...but I've often thought that maybe the patches were not meant to threaten RA...but...IF directed at RA...perhaps were to elicit trust and a connection with him...or possibly a means of getting him to initiate a conversation with a guard about his beliefs (whatever they may be). If you are looking at it from the standpoint of LE or the prosecution hypothetically trying to induce RA to say something that would improve their case...I think you catch more flies with honey than vinegar...and encouraging a "friendly" relationship with his guards...who are the only people other than his family that he talks to...would be more desirable than trying to manipulate a relationship where he fears his guards (in the hopes that he confesses out of fear).

Something that has always bothered me about the Franks Memo and the claims it makes about RA and his lack of a connection to Odinism or a connection to Odinists....is how can they make those claims when they also claim in the same document to have purposefully avoided discussions with RA about Odinism until about 3 weeks before they filed their Franks memo. The fact that they avoided those discussions with him really caught my attention.

Finally, the Franks Memo makes it sound like RA told his lawyers that the "Odin" guards were going to kill him...but again...I know it's kind of out there...it is not incongruent with the possibility above...because it kind of seems like RA maybe wanted to die (eating paper, and then not eating)...but that he was being prevented from doing so.

Whether RA was concerned about the guards and/or some Odinist harming his family I think takes a big leap in logic from the former D. It's entirely possible that RA is/was concerned for the safety of his family...but it also may have nothing to do with guards or Odinists.

JMO

OR if one thing isn't working, try something else. I think he had a 'companion" until the guards were assigned to watch him.

I've read enough articles and federal law suits to know better than to give prison guards an automatic free pass; OTOH, I don't paint them all with a broad brush.

 

[TL4S]

Just my thoughts, but I would think that the new defense team could file a new Franks motion if they think it’s warranted. But I would also think that all the motions etc filed by the ex-defense would remain part of the court record for the case.
I think also the prosecution has been silent because they were supposed to be silent, per the gag order. The ex-defense chose to ignore and circumvent the gag order which is why we only have their skewed story.

I agree about the P being quiet due to the gag order. However, the investigators have ways been pretty quiet about the case, to the point that the public were furious with them. NMcL filed early court documents incorrectly even, so I'm glad the special prosecutor has been assigned.

 

[susiQ]

Something that has always bothered me about the Franks Memo and the claims it makes about RA and his lack of a connection to Odinism or a connection to Odinists....is how can they make those claims when they also claim in the same document to have purposefully avoided discussions with RA about Odinism until about 3 weeks before they filed their Franks memo. The fact that they avoided those discussions with him really caught my attention.

RSBM
I strongly suspect the reason his D didn’t speak to him about it was his obvious declining mental health. RA had likely already been threatened by these “thugs” and to give RA more insight into Odinism would only exacerbate his fear for his family and himself. Of course, they could not keep it from him forever, as they were laying the foundation of his defence.

I find it curious that so few understand what fear can do to someone. I also find it curious that so few take the Frank’s memo seriously. JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

RSBM
I strongly suspect the reason his D didn’t speak to him about it was his obvious declining mental health. RA had likely already been threatened by these “thugs” and to give RA more insight into Odinism would only exacerbate his fear for his family and himself. Of course, they could not keep it from him forever, as they were laying the foundation of his defence.

I find it curious that so few understand what fear can do to someone. I also find it curious that so few take the Frank’s memo seriously. JMO

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a strong possibility that RA is afraid of someone and what they might do...I just am not convinced it's the guards or Odinists. The guards and their choice of attire appears to have been going on since at least February from the docs filed. RA didn't start freaking out until late April...shortly after a certain batch of discovery was dropped off by his lawyers for him to review.

JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a strong possibility that RA is afraid of someone and what they might do...I just am not convinced it's the guards or Odinists. The guards and their choice of attire appears to have been going on since at least February from the docs filed. RA didn't start freaking out until late April...shortly after a certain batch of discovery was dropped off by his lawyers for him to review.

JMO

Yeah, his fetish for paper was directly related to that discovery, not to Odinist guards writing runes in his oatmeal, IMO. He didn't like what he was reading. Nothing to do with patches.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

Just my thoughts, but I would think that the new defense team could file a new Franks motion if they think it’s warranted. But I would also think that all the motions etc filed by the ex-defense would remain part of the court record for the case.
I think also the prosecution has been silent because they were supposed to be silent, per the gag order. The ex-defense chose to ignore and circumvent the gag order which is why we only have their skewed story.

I guess there are two ways at looking at what the P hasn’t done. Withholding the evidence on Odinism does not amount to remaining silent because they were ”supposed to.” They failed to disclose important information to the D and they failed to investigate certain individuals. They ignored key parts of a criminal investigation. It’s that simple.

This is not a conspiracy “theory.” Sadly, once one looks at it from that perspective, it’s difficult to shift gears. I’m not saying the P are conspiring, but it appears the majority are discounting the Odinism as “conspiracy theory.” Regrettably, once the pejorative “conspiracy theory” is invoked, it is somehow believed that conspiracies don’t exist at all, which just isn’t the case. I challenge the assumption that this evil does not exist. JMHO

 

[susiQ]

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a strong possibility that RA is afraid of someone and what they might do...I just am not convinced it's the guards or Odinists. The guards and their choice of attire appears to have been going on since at least February from the docs filed. RA didn't start freaking out until late April...shortly after a certain batch of discovery was dropped off by his lawyers for him to review.

JMO

I respect your opinion, but I am not of the same mind.

 

[Betty P]

IMO that whole search was kind of sketchy. The search times claimed by NMcL and the time the warrant was signed and served are different from his version.

Then, we have this Barbara McDonald interview clearly showing LE at RA's house while the daylight is still good. This absolutely does not match the time Liggett claims he served the warrant.

If RA gave LE permission to search his property prior to the SW being issued, then that's one thing. If not, then IMO there's a problem.

As for chain of custody, so far we are missing that for all three parts of the search.

BM interview, picture is at the 35:44 mm.

All of this and other state's evidence will come out in the trial, as its supposed to. Until then, it does no good to speculate what the state might and might not have. Under a gag order, not much of that will be available to the public. The jury will learn when the time comes. JMO, let the process play out the way it's supposed to.

 

[Betty P]

I guess there are two ways at looking at what the P hasn’t done. Withholding the evidence on Odinism does not amount to remaining silent because they were ”supposed to.” They failed to disclose important information to the D and they failed to investigate certain individuals. They ignored key parts of a criminal investigation. It’s that simple.

This is not a conspiracy “theory.” Sadly, once one looks at it from that perspective, it’s difficult to shift gears. I’m not saying the P are conspiring, but it appears the majority are discounting the Odinism as “conspiracy theory.” Regrettably, once the pejorative “conspiracy theory” is invoked, it is somehow believed that conspiracies don’t exist at all, which just isn’t the case. I challenge the assumption that this evil does not exist. JMHO

Since the case hasn't gone to trial yet, it's impossible to say what the state has or hasn't done. The state doesn't have to and shouldn't make all the evidence they have available to the general public before the trial. That can prejudice a potential jury and give unfair advantage to witnesses and defendants.

It's also unfair for the defense team to make public claims about what the state has or hasn't done when the state is following the gag order and not discussing details outside of the trial. That's a common defense tactic - to try to share a slanted version of evidence and events to the public, knowing the state can't respond until trial.

 

[iamshadow21]

I guess there are two ways at looking at what the P hasn’t done. Withholding the evidence on Odinism does not amount to remaining silent because they were ”supposed to.” They failed to disclose important information to the D and they failed to investigate certain individuals. They ignored key parts of a criminal investigation. It’s that simple.

This is not a conspiracy “theory.” Sadly, once one looks at it from that perspective, it’s difficult to shift gears. I’m not saying the P are conspiring, but it appears the majority are discounting the Odinism as “conspiracy theory.” Regrettably, once the pejorative “conspiracy theory” is invoked, it is somehow believed that conspiracies don’t exist at all, which just isn’t the case. I challenge the assumption that this evil does not exist. JMHO

This only works if you unquestioningly believe what was asserted in the Frank's motion, which I very much do not.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

Since the case hasn't gone to trial yet, it's impossible to say what the state has or hasn't done. The state doesn't have to and shouldn't make all the evidence they have available to the general public before the trial. That can prejudice a potential jury and give unfair advantage to witnesses and defendants.

Agreed, but I’m not talking about revealing everything to the public, I’m speaking of disclosure to the defence which was not done in a timely fashion.