Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #100

[MistyWaters]

is there a link for this debunking on the DOD?

Yes I’m certain it’s was posted on the media thread. If somebody else hasn’t linked it by now I’ll see if I can find it.

 

[sunshineray]

This is from Feb but I have not seen it , it's from discovery ID crime feed 'Somebody Has Named The Right Person' In Investigation Of Delphi Snapchat Murder Girls

I'm confused by in the video, the 70 subpoenas being issued only a month or so after the murders. Search warrants I get but the subpoenas, aren't they an order to appear and testify in a court?

 

[MassGuy]

I'm confused by in the video, the 70 subpoenas being issued only a month or so after the murders. Search warrants I get but the subpoenas, aren't they an order to appear and testify in a court?

Subpoenas can be related to records, like Snapchat, the phone company, cell tower data, things like that.

It’s not just an order to appear.

 

[sunshineray]

Subpoenas can be related to records, like Snapchat, the phone company, cell tower data, things like that.

It’s not just an order to appear.

Ohhh yes ok. I thought those would just be warrants too. Thanks MassGuy.

 

[Jax49]

is there a link for this debunking on the DOD?

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13,and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #87

The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. 2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing. 3) No charges have been filed with connection to the killings.

 

[MistyWaters]

Post #7 from here:
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #47

Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports filed

Filed By:
State of Indiana


File Stamp:
03/28/2017

Order Issued

On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. 2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing. 3) No charges have been filed with connection to the killings. 4) The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge. 5) Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. The Court, being duly advised, ORDERS as follows: State of Indiana has demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that public access or dissemination of the information contained in Ind. Code 36-2-14-18(a) would create significant risks of harm to the criminal investigation of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German. State of Indiana's Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports, filed March 28, 2017, is GRANTED. The Court ORDERS the Carroll County Coroner to PROHIBIT public inspection and copying the following information related to Ms. Abigail Williams or Ms. Liberty German: 1) The name, age, address, sex, and race of the deceased. 2) The address where the dead body was found, or if there is no address the location where the dead body was found and, if different, the address where the death occurred, or if there is no address the location where the death occurred. 3) The name of the agency to which the death was reported and the name of the person reporting the death. 4) The name of any public official or governmental employee present at the scene of the death and the name of the person certifying or pronouncing the death. 5) Information regarding an autopsy (requested or performed) limited to the date, the person who performed the autopsy, where the autopsy was performed, and a conclusion as to: a. the probable cause of death; b. the probable manner of death; and c. the probable mechanism of death. 6) The location to which the body was removed, the person determining the location to which the body was removed, and the authority under which the decision to remove the body was made. 7) The records required to be filed by a coroner under section 6 [IC 36-2-14-6] of this chapter and the verdict and the written report required under section 10 [IC 36-2-14-10] of this chapter. (Collectively the confidential autopsy information ) The confidential autopsy information shall remain confidential until further order of this Court. The Court shall enter further order if the Prosecuting Attorney notifies the Court that the investigation has concluded. The Court shall enter further order if any person demonstrates that access to the confidential autopsy information would not create a significant risk to the criminal investigation of the deaths, AND the public interest will be served by allowing access to the confidential autopsy information, per form. (Copy to State, Coroner 3/28/2017,HNC)

Judicial Officer:
Diener, Benjamin A.


Order Signed:
03/28/2017

 

[Cherokee]

There’s three possibilities:

He did commit sexual assault.

He intended to commit SA, but was disturbed or changed his mind.

He never planned on SA, and only wanted to kill.

The thing that is always in the back of my mind when it comes to theories here, is the nature of DNA evidence.

Because I’m still unsure if it does exist, or if its quality, I’m leaning towards no SA.

I think we’d have a resolution by now if he did.

JMO.

I agree with your possibilities.

But what if he had already bound their hands, had on gloves and used an object for SA instead of himself? There is also the possibility the perp killed them first, then committed necrophilia, once again with an object. This happens frequently in deaths by strangulation.

We cannot assume there was no SA just because there doesn't appear to be a complete and useable DNA profile. We also cannot assume there was SA, but as you said, it could have been the original motive for the kidnapping and/or murders even if the perp ran out of time (and SA did not occur). I so hope it did not happen.

I understand all of this had to happen quickly.

I believe the perp had a gun or knife, with which he controlled the girls and ordered them "down the hill." He may have told them if they screamed for help or made a sound, he would kill them. At some point, I think the girls were bound and gagged, otherwise, people would have heard screams from that area during their killing.

Often, a perp will have one victim tie up the other one so they can maintain control with the weapon. When the first victim is immobilized, it is easier for the perp to then bind the second victim and then gag both victims.

Once the perp got them across the creek (over the sandbar directly below where their bodies were found) and more hidden from public view, he finished his crime. Even if the perp used a gun to control the girls, with no witnesses saying they heard a gunshot, it is more likely they were killed by knife or strangulation. In a park that had people wandering all about, a gunshot would bring them running.

 

[Cherokee]

I learned recently in relation to an unidentified person case I follow that partial DNA can be sufficient for a ruleout even if it's not sufficient for a match.

Exactly right!

 

[tmar]

^ETA yah what misty said, didn’t see her post before I responded

Also just something to keep in mind

LE knows the likely Time of death per the autopsy’s

LE has indicated that the murder was very soon after the audio/video

In what what way does the leaving and coming back scenario hold credibility?

I’m going to stick with what LE has said based on their actual evidence and facts they have and we do not

It’s the most plausible and logical, and LE fact based for that matter


Jmo

Deleted, as I have been informed, my post referred to a social media rumour, I was not aware of.
Sorry everyone.

 

[margarita25]

There’s three possibilities:

He did commit sexual assault.

He intended to commit SA, but was disturbed or changed his mind.

He never planned on SA, and only wanted to kill.

The thing that is always in the back of my mind when it comes to theories here, is the nature of DNA evidence.

Because I’m still unsure if it does exist, or if its quality, I’m leaning towards no SA.

I think we’d have a resolution by now if he did.

Additionally, also remember that no evidence of SA doesn’t necessarily mean that no SA occurred.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is good advice. I'd also add that LE rarely flat-out lies to the GP. I don't know how many times I've heard someone "refute" a clear, fact-based argument by insisting that the opposite could be true. "Ha! That's what LE wants you to think!"

Yes and in over two years, so many people have already been convicted by the Cyber Jury that I’m certain it would require one entire prison just to house them all!

I bet LE wish solving this crime was as simple as googling a few online news stories and then shoving the puzzle pieces together so it all more or less fits.

 

[tresir2012]

The one thing that nags at me about this story, is that the man in custody is listed as being from Lebanon (not too far from Delphi). I recall a house in Lebanon being served a warrant in relation to the girls deaths. Does anyone else remember this?
Arrest made for alleged murder of Nicole Bowen

You are right, well remembered - Lebanon is shown in Skibaboo's case map (in post 1 of every thread) as a search location, but no addresses were given out. (Peru was another location also on the map.) This is the link that comes up when you click on the binocular emblem in Lebanon on the map.

Reward now more than $100,000 in Delphi murders of two teens

 

[Yvettea]

How can I tell if someone is arrested in Carroll County?

 

[neesaki]

The one thing that nags at me about this story, is that the man in custody is listed as being from Lebanon (not too far from Delphi). I recall a house in Lebanon being served a warrant in relation to the girls deaths. Does anyone else remember this?
Arrest made for alleged murder of Nicole Bowen

I stay behind here, so my apologies if already asked and answered, but do you have a link for the house in Lebanon being searched in this case? TIA

 

[tresir2012]

The thing is, if Nicole Bowen was tortured and murdered for talking to police, and these cases are in fact connected, then that would explain a lot about people not talking or perhaps covering for a child murderer here. If I thought that I would possibly meet that same fate, I don't know that I would talk either. Just some thoughts.

Even fear of retaliation will stop witnesses coming forward most of the time, but I do wonder what was being snitched to LE to cause this recent torture and murder, The coincidence of the PC being after the arrests is also not lost on me either. All the arrestees may now just talk and plea themselves out into witness protection hopefully, if they know anything- which I bet they surely do, even if it is not about the girls murders.

 

[tresir2012]

I had totally forgotten and discounted something about a phone traveling around. Can someone refresh my memory? That said, I still can't understand if they were traveling around why they would come back around through the cemetery and walk them back down on the other side when people were searching for them. That just me defies logic. I'm trying to wrap my brain around it to even consider. As always, I appreciate people revisiting and making me rethink. And this one makes me try to remember about something about a phone traveling around the city which I cannot even recall but I'm sure others have better memory and can refresh it.

MP stated in his media interview around 9 p.m. the night they were missing that the phone was pinging around town earlier but by that time, was no longer on. (link in the media thread)

 

[sunshineray]

JMO.

I agree with your possibilities.

But what if he had already bound their hands, had on gloves and used an object for SA instead of himself? There is also the possibility the perp killed them first, then committed necrophilia, once again with an object. This happens frequently in deaths by strangulation.

We cannot assume there was no SA just because there doesn't appear to be a complete and useable DNA profile. We also cannot assume there was SA, but as you said, it could have been the original motive for the kidnapping and/or murders even if the perp ran out of time (and SA did not occur). I so hope it did not happen.

I understand all of this had to happen quickly.

I believe the perp had a gun or knife, with which he controlled the girls and ordered them "down the hill." He may have told them if they screamed for help or made a sound, he would kill them. At some point, I think the girls were bound and gagged, otherwise, people would have heard screams from that area during their killing.

Often, a perp will have one victim tie up the other one so they can maintain control with the weapon. When the first victim is immobilized, it is easier for the perp to then bind the second victim and then gag both victims.

Once the perp got them across the creek (over the sandbar directly below where their bodies were found) and more hidden from public view, he finished his crime. Even if the perp used a gun to control the girls, with no witnesses saying they heard a gunshot, it is more likely they were killed by knife or strangulation. In a park that had people wandering all about, a gunshot would bring them running.

In that article someone just posted, Abby's mom is quoted, "...Two little girls died here, horrifically — horrifically.... It's upsetting..." That language brings up nightmarish circumstamces to these two young girl's end. I can't even begin to comprehend her anguish.

 

[MDATCA]

I don't think transporting them anywhere in a vehicle would have been an option. The "Down the hill" command makes sense to getting them off the trail quickly and going towards a water source also makes sense as far as...God I hate even speaking to this...disposing of his victims and his trace evidence on them in a water source. If his weapon was a knife it would also aid him in cleaning himself up before walking out, possibly to a vehicle. I've heard it said one of the girls was partially covered with leaves. Maybe he heard nearby people and the water plan went to a more hurried covering them up plan which wad never completed because he needed to leave?

I keep coming back to the thought that Derrick German calling Libby's phone may have been what interrupted him.

 

[OhioStateD]

Even fear of retaliation will stop witnesses coming forward most of the time, but I do wonder what was being snitched to LE to cause this recent torture and murder, The coincidence of the PC being after the arrests is also not lost on me either. All the arrestees may now just talk and plea themselves out into witness protection hopefully, if they know anything- which I bet they surely do, even if it is not about the girls murders.

I don't believe it's ever been said that her death was because she snitched. Have you seen that reported? My thoughts were that it was for something different.

 

[OhioStateD]

Even fear of retaliation will stop witnesses coming forward most of the time, but I do wonder what was being snitched to LE to cause this recent torture and murder, The coincidence of the PC being after the arrests is also not lost on me either. All the arrestees may now just talk and plea themselves out into witness protection hopefully, if they know anything- which I bet they surely do, even if it is not about the girls murders.

I don't believe it's ever been said that her death was because she snitched. Have you seen that reported? My thoughts were that it was for something different.