Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111

[CSIDreamer]

@margarita25 did you know indiana has cold case playing cards? There are 3 editions. I had no clue. I was trying to do some searching for other cases the way you are. And I found these.

Indiana Department of Correction: Cold Case Playing Cards Indiana Department of Correction: Cold Case Playing Cards

 

[margarita25]

@margarita25 did you know indiana has cold case playing cards? There are 3 editions. I had no clue. I was trying to do some searching for other cases the way you are. And I found these.

Indiana Department of Correction: Cold Case Playing Cards Indiana Department of Correction: Cold Case Playing Cards

That’s fabulous, CSIDreamer. Iirc other state(s) had this a long time ago, but no I don’t think I knew about that here. Thank you. Taking a look!

ETA: This is very interesting looking at these cards (just in general).

“The card decks are being distributed throughout Indiana prisons and to law enforcement authorities, and will be the only decks of cards available for purchase in the state’s prison facilities. The aim of the project is to create an awareness of these unsolved cases in the prison population and encourage offenders to provide information that might help solve the cases. Officials hope the cards may jar inmate memories or provide a clue that, when combined with other information, might provide the break investigators need to solve a case.”

What a great tool and idea, moo. We know how often prisoners do have information and are willing to talk for a deal.

Also this reminds me of another link I posted eons ago re: cold cases, will look for it.

 

[EarthtoMel]

I watched several YouTube videos about people making portrait masks. (This would be too bulky, but the artists are so talented!) I think he’d buy more expensive ones, and not from Amazon.

Another version - not mask - but a theater actor. Someone taught how to apply makeup, change the form of the nose, lips.

Even a good amateur actor could do it. And he can change clothes very fast.

Someone who played in school or college theater.

A few years ago I put on a fake nose and chin to be a witch for Halloween. I blended the nose and chin in really well with liquid latex and even close up, you could not see a seam. I threw on some make up to blend even more. People could not get over how realistic the nose and chin were....and easy removal...just pull them off and rub away the latex a little.

 

[insearchoflight]

A lot of debate about the religious aspects.

Is it possible that Carter himself is religious and that’s why he inserts so many religious references in his speeches/interviews/etc. That’s just him? Total speculation I don’t know if Carter is a religious man or not.

I think The Shack reference really was because he had just watched the movie.

I don’t think LE is inserting hidden messages to BG. Just my opinion.

 

[MJPeony]

A lot of debate about the religious aspects.

Is it possible that Carter himself is religious and that’s why he inserts so many religious references in his speeches/interviews/etc. That’s just him? Total speculation I don’t know if Carter is a religious man or not.

I think The Shack reference really was because he had just watched the movie.

I don’t think LE is inserting hidden messages to BG. Just my opinion.

I tend to agree here.

 

[155etta]

A lot of debate about the religious aspects.

Is it possible that Carter himself is religious and that’s why he inserts so many religious references in his speeches/interviews/etc. That’s just him? Total speculation I don’t know if Carter is a religious man or not.

I think The Shack reference really was because he had just watched the movie.

I don’t think LE is inserting hidden messages to BG. Just my opinion.

If they're not, they have super strange PCs. IMO

 

[TL4S]

A lot of debate about the religious aspects.

Is it possible that Carter himself is religious and that’s why he inserts so many religious references in his speeches/interviews/etc. That’s just him? Total speculation I don’t know if Carter is a religious man or not.

I think The Shack reference really was because he had just watched the movie.

I don’t think LE is inserting hidden messages to BG. Just my opinion.

I tend to agree, as well. Of course it's always possible there's meaning to The Shack and other comments, as they did seem oddly placed at the PC, but it doesn't feel like something LE would do. Especially this LE, who has nary given even a hint about what happened.

 

[Charlot123]

Also she was streaming video , so LE would know that they were killed because they saw something , I don't see that as something they would have to keep quiet

I don't think she was streaming, someone said there was no connection on the bridge. I don't know what else was on that video.

We have two groups here, one obviously thinks it was related to someone using drugs, the other, that it was a quiet loner.

One thing we don't know about the Delphi case is what the original motive was. We don't know if he planned to take them the spot he did and kill them, or if there was an attempted abduction that went sour, or some other motive. JMO

Let us start again with not knowing. Maybe we should start anew, not from the standpoint of the motive, but from the standpoint of opportunity. Who could do it? With two scenarios, a) he was chasing them. And b) it was random.

Make one thread, pull it all into it.

Like, he is out on Monday, he moves fast, he clearly knows the area, he has good spatial orientation, he probably walks fast or runs yet the gait is odd, he can walk on that bridge fast, no fear, he was done with it in a short time, he can change clothes and appearance fast, he can kill fast, too, he is mentally organized. He can make two girls get down the hill fast - fear? - a gun, probably?

He has time on his side, and he should not! It is as if he either knows who and how is going to pick them up (has access to their SM? Very likely), or he had the chance to check both sides of the bridge. He knows that no one is waiting them on either side now. He has to know this.

Whatever he left with his DNA, if anything, it was not much. Either he knows that there are no matches in Gedmatch, and won’t be, or he knows how not to leave workable DNA. Who would have this knowledge?

He is not in the CODIS...

And then there is the issue of early communication with the police that swayed them the wrong way. What is this about, and how could he persuade them? Too believable as a witness? Own good alibi? Was seen elsewhere?

Let us make a separate discussion, of opportunity. From what I have posted, it is obvious to me that he is not a local druggie. That he has a high IQ and is probably “a worrier”, they do perform better under stress. That he probably is a college grad or had good military training and has some minimal knowledge of the criminology. That he probably is very good at Googling.

I think we should pull it all together and then think what is most plausible, that someone helped, that he was alone, etc.

From my own post it seems to me that he has access to their SM. Because even if he knew them, saw them being dropped off, how did he know that dad would not pick them up in 15 minutes? And dads have guns these days.

 

[tresir2012]

I saw a movie where two young men were making own silicone masks for Comic-con. So potentially, one can make a mask.

But this is why I thought of the Comic-con - if the person is a loner, often Comic-cons are the outlets for such people. And the parents might invest into a basic mask once, or help invest. This is why I thought the person was once, probably, a Comic-con attendee. (Or liked cosplay, or partook in it at a certain point). And also, was probably involved in a local theater, or got some training on how to change clothes/look in a fast fashion.
One basic mask of a young man that I have posted would work for many attacks, btw.

When did A & L go to comic con and what is it exactly?

 

[Charlot123]

When did A & L go to comic con and what is it exactly?

Comic book convention - Wikipedia

Ironically, the one in Indianapolis is going to be next week.

Google Comic Con images, there are the most interesting costumes!

I don’t know if Libby and Abby ever went to one, but I want to know. It is where tons of young people coalesce these days, and meet each other.

My feeling is, a person easily wearing a mask could have it as a hobby.

Or this could be his hobby, too.

Cosplay - Wikipedia

 

[tresir2012]

I don't think she was streaming, someone said there was no connection on the bridge. I don't know what else was on that video.

We have two groups here, one obviously thinks it was related to someone using drugs, the other, that it was a quiet loner.




Let us start again with not knowing. Maybe we should start anew, not from the standpoint of the motive, but from the standpoint of opportunity. Who could do it? With two scenarios, a) he was chasing them. And b) it was random.

Make one thread, pull it all into it.

Like, he is out on Monday, he moves fast, he clearly knows the area, he has good spatial orientation, he probably walks fast or runs yet the gait is odd, he can walk on that bridge fast, no fear, he was done with it in a short time, he can change clothes and appearance fast, he can kill fast, too, he is mentally organized. He can make two girls get down the hill fast - fear? - a gun, probably?

He has time on his side, and he should not! It is as if he either knows who and how is going to pick them up (has access to their SM? Very likely), or he had the chance to check both sides of the bridge. He knows that no one is waiting them on either side now. He has to know this.

Whatever he left with his DNA, if anything, it was not much. Either he knows that there are no matches in Gedmatch, and won’t be, or he knows how not to leave workable DNA. Who would have this knowledge?

He is not in the CODIS...

And then there is the issue of early communication with the police that swayed them the wrong way. What is this about, and how could he persuade them? Too believable as a witness? Own good alibi? Was seen elsewhere?

Let us make a separate discussion, of opportunity. From what I have posted, it is obvious to me that he is not a local druggie. That he has a high IQ and is probably “a worrier”, they do perform better under stress. That he probably is a college grad or had good military training and has some minimal knowledge of the criminology. That he probably is very good at Googling.

I think we should pull it all together and then think what is most plausible, that someone helped, that he was alone, etc.

From my own post it seems to me that he has access to their SM. Because even if he knew them, saw them being dropped off, how did he know that dad would not pick them up in 15 minutes? And dads have guns these days.

I think there are more than just two groups. There are a lot of different POI's. LE themselves have said more than two dozen. A lot of people would have access to their SM or their family members SM. We could say the two groups are random or targeted though. Random, I doubt, because if the perp is local, as LE believe, then he knows the girls in all likelihood. I therefore believe they were targeted. Which would bring us to why, what was the motive? I think that is where we are stuck - unless we know the motive, it will be difficult to solve IMO.

 

[Charlot123]

A lot of debate about the religious aspects.

Is it possible that Carter himself is religious and that’s why he inserts so many religious references in his speeches/interviews/etc. That’s just him? Total speculation I don’t know if Carter is a religious man or not.

I think The Shack reference really was because he had just watched the movie.

I don’t think LE is inserting hidden messages to BG. Just my opinion.

You know, I look at what I wrote, and it is easier to imagine BG as not a religious person. Moreover, from a totally different area of life, maybe, with some training in killing?

But... the FBI has made a psychological portrait. Must have. If BG is not religious, the effect from LE’s words would be different, if any. How do we explain what the LE said, and it is from my memory. “You are hiding in plain sight. It is all about control for you. You want to know what we know. Where they are now, they are very different from how you have left them”. And then all that stuff about the Shack... (I would not even understand it as I never read the book). He had to know that the Shack would resonate with the killer, though. If their psychological portrait said, likely, atheist, they would not even mention it, as the dude would be like, “what???”.

Or, as someone said, there is something unfathomable about their PCs.

 

[susiQ]

I tend to agree, as well. Of course it's always possible there's meaning to The Shack and other comments, as they did seem oddly placed at the PC, but it doesn't feel like something LE would do. Especially this LE, who has nary given even a hint about what happened.

BBM - Excellent point!!

 

[Heaven Leigh]

I hope someday that PC will make sense. It sure was a strange one. Felt like everything he said had a hidden meaning. Maybe it was just his emotions and delivery. I dunno.

 

[Boxer]

BBM - Excellent point!!

MOO Clever, young, weird and of the middle/ upper social strata for the area. Clothes make him appear to be a perfect midwestern nobody. Felt jilted, sought equilibrium in killing innocents. Meaning it is about power and control, not simply sexual and violent overpowering of the girls and getting rid of witnesses, but the power over them AND the power to destroy lives of others that loved them.
The photos on the bridge was unexpected, MOO he pats himself on the back every day for having the foresight to wear a get up.

 

[TL4S]

I don't think she was streaming, someone said there was no connection on the bridge. I don't know what else was on that video.

We have two groups here, one obviously thinks it was related to someone using drugs, the other, that it was a quiet loner.




Let us start again with not knowing. Maybe we should start anew, not from the standpoint of the motive, but from the standpoint of opportunity. Who could do it? With two scenarios, a) he was chasing them. And b) it was random.

Make one thread, pull it all into it.

Like, he is out on Monday, he moves fast, he clearly knows the area, he has good spatial orientation, he probably walks fast or runs yet the gait is odd, he can walk on that bridge fast, no fear, he was done with it in a short time, he can change clothes and appearance fast, he can kill fast, too, he is mentally organized. He can make two girls get down the hill fast - fear? - a gun, probably?

He has time on his side, and he should not! It is as if he either knows who and how is going to pick them up (has access to their SM? Very likely), or he had the chance to check both sides of the bridge. He knows that no one is waiting them on either side now. He has to know this.

Whatever he left with his DNA, if anything, it was not much. Either he knows that there are no matches in Gedmatch, and won’t be, or he knows how not to leave workable DNA. Who would have this knowledge?

He is not in the CODIS...

And then there is the issue of early communication with the police that swayed them the wrong way. What is this about, and how could he persuade them? Too believable as a witness? Own good alibi? Was seen elsewhere?

Let us make a separate discussion, of opportunity. From what I have posted, it is obvious to me that he is not a local druggie. That he has a high IQ and is probably “a worrier”, they do perform better under stress. That he probably is a college grad or had good military training and has some minimal knowledge of the criminology. That he probably is very good at Googling.

I think we should pull it all together and then think what is most plausible, that someone helped, that he was alone, etc.

From my own post it seems to me that he has access to their SM. Because even if he knew them, saw them being dropped off, how did he know that dad would not pick them up in 15 minutes? And dads have guns these days.

I have ideas, as we all do, about what might have happened to those girls that day in the woods, but I also have to admit to my own inexperience with true crime. I've only followed one other case. I don't have a background in psychology, or forensics, or statistics, or criminology, nor do I do any research into them. Therefore, even if I tried to formulate a profile, or a theory, about motive, opportunity, or anything else, there's just way too many question marks for the thought to complete itself. It's like a dark hole in the middle of a picture. And I don't have enough knowledge of crime to even make a guess what's there.

I appreciate the conversing of ideas, though. It's opened my mind, which is normally stuck to a map. But I honestly can't even make an attempt at profiling BG, or guessing his opportunities or motives. The reason I keep going back to the map is because, for me, I need to understand the what, when, and how to the crime to make sense of the who or why.

 

[Nerissa]

Well, I hope any religious references would be in pursuit of the killer

I'd find it highly inappropriate otherwise - so, I hope LE wasn't going on some personal religious tangent

I'd like to think they said: you want to know what we know: well Buddy: we know about YOU

This is a predominately christian country - but, if he'd gone on about Buddha, Shiva, Allah, Joe Smith, etc what-have-you, well: it wouldn't be right... & it isn't right. So: personally I hope not

I will take those references to be consciously aimed at the killer. Otherwise, those references would be unprofessional

JMO

 

[Nerissa]

The Jayme Closs case made me realize just how random an act of violence can be

No one thought it was random, generally - certainly no one thought it was to the extent it was Utterly determined in a random fashion, then carried out.

So, our perp here:
if planned:
1) has been in that area for however long, perhaps years, planning a murder, but the targets are unknown
2) perp knows these targets, has a desire to murder these particular targets

unplanned:
1) perhaps a long standing desire to kill but no particular plan to do so, zero knowledge of Abby or Libby, does what he does, spur of the moment

Oddly: it seems, sometimes, very astute perps get away with it....more often: it seems those who did things on the sly, unplanned, etc, get away more often (so many cold cases)

My thing here: if unplanned: why go after two girls...again: maybe because it's just how he rolled at the moment.......risky, but all of it was risky

Or heck: if 'planned' without either of them specific targets: why the both of them..? Again: risky

JMO

 

[TL4S]

Well, I hope any religious references would be in pursuit of the killer

I'd find it highly inappropriate otherwise - so, I hope LE wasn't going on some personal religious tangent

I'd like to think they said: you want to know what we know: well Buddy: we know about YOU

This is a predominately christian country - but, if he'd gone on about Buddha, Shiva, Allah, Joe Smith, etc what-have-you, well: it wouldn't be right... & it isn't right. So: personally I hope not

I will take those references to be consciously aimed at the killer. Otherwise, those references would be unprofessional

JMO

I agree with you. It's uncomfortable to me to have religion brought into public situations. So yes, I've considered the religious speak was directed at the killer. But I've also read in several places that the LE office there is religious in general, as in holding prayer in the morning. That's odd to me, too. But if that's what the culture is there, than maybe that's why the PC was held the way it was. I don't know. It's confusing.

 

[sunshineray]

I hope someday that PC will make sense. It sure was a strange one. Felt like everything he said had a hidden meaning. Maybe it was just his emotions and delivery. I dunno.

I think we can take a few things as certain away from that PC. One is the stated change of "investigative strategy". Why even say this to the public if it's not the God's honest truth and something LE knows will shake up the killer?

Also Carter saying to the killer, we know it's all about power with you. Through the audio Libby recorded I believe LE knows quite a lot about the abuction phase and the killer's demeanor within it.

One more is the bone chilling statement of "could be in this room". That was said deliberately and targeted at someone. Who I don't know but someone involved in community and events, someone who it would be expected that they'd turn out for a PC about those two girl's murders. It would be expected somehow that they'd care enough to be there in the room. AJMO