Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

[sunshineray]

I am wondering two things ... (well, 200 really) ...

When DC said at the PC "remember, this is one person speaking" (when "Guys" was added in ... ) it sounds SO different, IMO, the "Guys" sounds younger ... is it DEF 1 person?

And, is voice recognition easy to utilize? Could FBI quickly/easily be running voice comparisons to rule people in/out?

With the video so blurry, DNA complex and likely overwhelming amts of it from so many different people who were tangentially in contact innocently with the girls, The Voice seems something to keenly focus on.

Sherriff Tobe himself said (para) "I've heard that voice..."

Sometimes people can call a greeting or a word to catch another's attention, likie a "Hey", "Excuse me" even a "Yo" in a much higher and clearer tone then how they continue speaking afterwards. I know I've done it, spoken louder and clearer then once I have their attention my voice lowers.

 

[SouthernMom]

2.5 years is nothing to a homicide case. Thankfully LE don't lose faith quite so easily.

A 7 year old drive-by homocide has just been solved in Anderson SC and an arrest was made. So I still have hope for justice for these two sweet girls.

 

[susiQ]

Yes, I did get the feeling, when they said they were down to like two dozen people, that it was likely a matter of DNA targeting. Would be nice to know IF that were the case. Would lend us a bit of hope, anyway.

That whole topic of DNA exhausts me.

And, while they have 2 dozen suspects they are working through, the million dollar question IS, "Is the killer among that 2 dozen?"

 

[Boxer]

I can only speculate but it's def a possibility. Even good girls go boy crazy.

I'm only saying if you wanted to meet up with a boy without your parents knowledge, even for innocent reasons, a teen would think of that place. A local parent could not just drive by and rat you out like other local parks, gathering spots.

There are some other very good theories that are also innocent reasons for them to be there. I just can't stop thinking that's a perfect spot for a predator to meet up with someone who believes they are a handsome young man. He could even have portrayed himself as a homeschool kid, or from a neighboring school, or even someone they kinda know. Fake profiles are a real problem.

This idea has been followed, but with the tight lipped nature of the investigation, at this point there is no way to say it's been ruled out. Hell, not much has been.

Again, all I am saying is if I was a teen and wanted to meet up with someone without getting ratted out that would certainly be a spot I would consider. My daughter complains because you can't get away with anything here lol. Which is ideal as a parent

And yet sadly, an adult got away with murder.

 

[400bones]

Welcome Bones. TY for your response. Are bones your speciality at all?

Thanks for the welcome. I'm no specialist, unfortunately. Just an anthropology student.

 

[Charlot123]

Here's that Paul Holes article with info you mentioned. It's worth reading.

‘They Have A Tough Investigation Ahead:' Paul Holes On The Delphi Murders

You know when investigation might be tough?

If the perp was adopted from Eastern Europe.

I was thinking about it. Ukraine digitized their archives. Russia has too many but is working.
Georgia, i don’t know how their situation is. I don’t know about Serbia or Bulgaria.

I would be a long way - but possible. And very interesting.

 

[buggiegirl]

DBM

 

[Boxer]

dbm

Sometimes people can call a greeting or a word to catch another's attention, likie a "Hey", "Excuse me" even a "Yo" in a much higher and clearer tone then how they continue speaking afterwards. I know I've done it, spoken louder and clearer then once I have their attention my voice lowers.

Agree. MOO There is also suppressed malice and glee in both voice in both registers.

 

[tresir2012]

You know when investigation might be tough?

If the perp was adopted from Eastern Europe.

I was thinking about it. Ukraine digitized their archives. Russia has too many but is working.
Georgia, i don’t know how their situation is. I don’t know about Serbia or Bulgaria.

I would be a long way - but possible. And very interesting.

If the perp only had a mother and father who had immigrated to the states and neither the perp, his siblings or parents were felons in CODIS, what then? The familial DNA would all be in a foreign country so what could it be matched to? Nothing. MOO.

 

[Charlot123]

If the perp only had a mother and father who had immigrated to the states and neither the perp, his siblings or parents were felons in CODIS, what then? The familial DNA would all be in a foreign country so what could it be matched to? Nothing. MOO.

This is an interesting question because his face, what I could see from the video, had some traits that I called "Mediterranean". It is a broad term.

If parents immigrated, and the LE has DNA, one thing that can be done, is to put the DNA code into the Gedmatch format, and then, Gedmatch has 4-way Oracle - the predictor of 4 grandparents. You don't need matches for this, it is just the system to "play" with your DNA. I did it, it is pretty interesting, I would not trust it 100% but they have a huge database, so no way would I get "Persian", for example.

It does not necessarily give you "the country". But at least one could get an idea of the area of origin. Today, if someone is the descendant of the Brits, they say they can tell what county your ancestors were from, so no way could this system confuse Brits and Eastern Europeans, for example. Same for Mexicans. Same for Finns.

(23@me does the same, BTW. I checked people from my family, I'd say, they reversed some places of origin, but it is still the same country, and not that far away).

Then you could work with what you got. Probably, get in touch with the law enforcement agencies in the countries that the parents could potentially come from, and ask to help search in their systems (everyone has something like CODIS). I don't think anyone would say "no" when they hear about such a crime. Also, look through immigration records, we know approximate age, I think Delphi LE knows more than 18-40, see where people settled, when they got their US Citizenship. This part is easier than we think. Maybe first look through immigration records from a certain part of the world, and then get in touch with the alleged countries.

ETA: I checked my own kits again. It is "Admixture (heritage)" and then you use the project. I chose Eurogenes for Europeans. But you can play with different projects and see what works for you. I would say, the country of origin was very well seen in one-way Oracle. Exactly. Period. The four grandparents were even more interesting, but overall, they can tell you where your DNA came from.
It seems that Eurogenes work best with the least mixed population groups, one has to play with different projects if you are a mixture.

 

[BoggLed in Ohio]

For what its worth (probably about nothing), here is my "profile" on the guy.. .the way he looks and the way he talks and maybe what happened.

The way this guy dressed just looks to me like any 30-40 year old guy who is a farm laborer or a construction day laborer that makes very little money. He's had these pants for 30 years...these are straight legged before it became cool again. Just enough money to get by (you can tell by his clothes and his general look). He may live in a small farm house that he either inherited from a parent or uncle or maybe rents an small apartment on the back of a house of some woman that sectioned off to charge rent to help make ends meet.

He is very much a loner. He loves guns and knives but can't afford many of them. Maybe the sort of person who also reads gun and knife magazines and maybe even True Detective magazine....but he has not committed a major crime before. He blends in. Never hardly speaks. But works mostly alone...like in a barn shoveling out manure.

He's wandering on the trail and the girls giggle when they walk by each other and he mistakenly thinks they are laughing at him. He soars into a rage to teach them a lesson. Waits to see that the coast is clear in both directions and then goes back to scare them.

He has a weapon concealed in his jacket pocket. He is so angry (maybe he hates girls from back in school when they wouldn't talk to him) and now he goes to teach them a lesson for laughing at him now. It gets out of hand and before he realized it he has actually forced them to go down beside the bridge. He sees the terror in their eyes and then he realizes that he has done something that will get him in trouble. and they can identify him. he is screwed.

He then kills them and leaves the area quickly. He has read enough crime magazines to know not to change the way he looks and to come up with an alibi.

Anyway, sorry for the post that is 99% speculation... but I cannot imagine why anyone in their right mind would attack girls like this out on a trail and I am looking at the guy's photo and trying to imagine how these murders could possibly have happened from this guy.

I'll agree with ya on some of that (I think he is a loner and likes knives/guns/weapons and likely lives and works in seclusion as much as possible. ) but I dont think this was a spontaneous crime, an unplanned crime, or a rageful overreaction to being giggled at. I think he was there hunting for a victim that day. I believe he had weapons and tools of the trade (kill kit) under that overstuffed coat and he was on a mission to kill. Not a hit per se no. But a predator out hunting. I believe he is a serial killer. I have always felt this way since the very beginning.

 

[heartgoesout]

Well well well.

 

[Blue Amethyst]

@PaulaDC , I wish your husband to find someone close.

If he is in Gedmatch, and you say there are no paternal matches - I assume he has mom's DNA and has done "phasing", i.e., divided his genome into maternal/paternal parts, right? Otherwise, how does he know there are no paternal matches?

23@me does phasing automatically, I have my and dad's genomes, they divided my genome into paternal/maternal part .

So what I wanted to know, what is the ancestry of your husband's paternal side? Maybe his dad belongs to an ethnic group that doesn't use these tests too often?

Or, sadly, he has not left any other kids.

Or he is from religious group that prefers Ancestry?

Also, you can download his results to my Heritage and Geni. Com.

I don’t know that much about DNA tests. Hans from the Netherlands matched my first cousin on My Heritage. Because my own father had been overseas during WW2, I took the My Heritage and was NOT a match. Then he did Ancestry and found some matches. So I tracked them down and found his half sister. These companies do not share information.

So when they find DNA at a crime scene..who does the testing? How do they find family matches? Are they only in the company you paid to do it or do they have access? Too bad there wasn’t just one company that had all the information.

 

[tresir2012]

This is an interesting question because his face, what I could see from the video, had some traits that I called "Mediterranean". It is a broad term.

If parents immigrated, and the LE has DNA, one thing that can be done, is to put the DNA code into the Gedmatch format, and then, Gedmatch has 4-way Oracle - the predictor of 4 grandparents. You don't need matches for this, it is just the system to "play" with your DNA. I did it, it is pretty interesting, I would not trust it 100% but they have a huge database, so no way would I get "Persian", for example.

It does not necessarily give you "the country". But at least one could get an idea of the area of origin. Today, if someone is the descendant of the Brits, they say they can tell what county your ancestors were from, so no way could this system confuse Brits and Eastern Europeans, for example. Same for Mexicans. Same for Finns.

(23@me does the same, BTW. I checked people from my family, I'd say, they reversed some places of origin, but it is still the same country, and not that far away).

Then you could work with what you got. Probably, get in touch with the law enforcement agencies in the countries that the parents could potentially come from, and ask to help search in their systems (everyone has something like CODIS). I don't think anyone would say "no" when they hear about such a crime. Also, look through immigration records, we know approximate age, I think Delphi LE knows more than 18-40, see where people settled, when they got their US Citizenship. This part is easier than we think. Maybe first look through immigration records from a certain part of the world, and then get in touch with the alleged countries.

ETA: I checked my own kits again. It is "Admixture (heritage)" and then you use the project. I chose Eurogenes for Europeans. But you can play with different projects and see what works for you. I would say, the country of origin was very well seen in one-way Oracle. Exactly. Period. The four grandparents were even more interesting, but overall, they can tell you where your DNA came from.
It seems that Eurogenes work best with the least mixed population groups, one has to play with different projects if you are a mixture.

Do you think they will have done this? Maybe that could be how they know about reddish brown hair? That isn't Mediterranean though but more Northern Europe right?

 

[moonlessnight]

One of the most unique and intriguing aspects of this case is that we see the elusive boogeyman in action - we can see his walk and hear his voice as he initiates the worst horrific crime. How often does that happen?

dbm


Agree. MOO There is also suppressed malice and glee in both voice in both registers.

 

[susiQ]

Well well well.

Yes, it's a very "deep" subject

 

[Rural_PC]

Well well well.

Did I miss something?

 

[cody22]

***........mooooooooo

 

[susiQ]

Did I miss something?

Not much, unless you're doing a genealogy search

 

[Charlot123]

I don’t know that much about DNA tests. Hans from the Netherlands matched my first cousin on My Heritage. Because my own father had been overseas during WW2, I took the My Heritage and was NOT a match. Then he did Ancestry and found some matches. So I tracked them down and found his half sister. These companies do not share information.

So when they find DNA at a crime scene..who does the testing? How do they find family matches? Are they only in the company you paid to do it or do they have access? Too bad there wasn’t just one company that had all the information.

I think we have had very few killers tracked down by the DNA, so far. But, it is the beginning.

This is good enough for forensic DNA. DNA Evidence: How It’s Done

For family matches, they need to translate the DNA (code) they have to the format that Gedmatch accepts, and then, download it into GEDMATCH. Formatting was a problem for the first (GSK) case, but not anymore. Then they load this kit (code, not material) into Gedmatch under a certain name and run it through, probably using "one-to-many" program, to find matches - relatives. The closer, the better. Then the genealogists build the tree upward for the match, to find a common ancestor (for me and my first cousins, it would be our grandparents, for example. For me and for my uncle once removed, it would be his grandparents and my great-grandparents...etc, for me and my second cousins, it would be our great-grandparents...you also need to know the line, so the closer the match, the better, as it is easier to sort things out). Usually depending on the percentage of the match, one can approximately tell the degree of the connection/separation.

AncestrySupport

When they come to the projected common ancestor, they start building a full tree for him, downwards. His kids, his grandkids, etc. And then try to sort out who of his descendants would fit - who lived in the area of the crime, was of the appropriate age, etc. I think for GSK, they found about three possible perps, and then collected DNA (from thrash bins) for all of them. One matched...

Now, I am not a genealogist, and I am straddled by my own tree (lack of information about one line, period). So I am far from the regular genealogy work, things might be more complicated. But this is how I understand it.

I wonder what happens if there is only a mitochondrial match. Meaning, that it is direct maternal line, as mitochondria get transmitted via the egg, so, from mother's side. It could rule out the suspects, if there is no match, and if the haplotype of the mitochondria DNA is rare, it probably would be very suspicious, if you get a match. But it is still complicated. As I have mentioned, my dad's mitotype is met in 1:20000 cases, if even that oftne. So the presence of a hair shaft of such a type at the crime scene would cast suspicion on him, his mother, his maternal grandmother, his sister, his sister's daughter, or her children. But not me, as I got my mitochondria from my mom. But if the mitotype is very common (like, pure H, without private mutations), chances are, many people might have it.