Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

[tresir2012]

And not to rehash but there is this. Why did some of the billboards have "Male , last seen 2/13/2017 @2:30 PM"...

Last seen by whom?? Libby's video, a witness?

Source: Tread 87 post 753

Yes. ISP put that on the billboards as the time Libby recorded the video.

 

[Charlot123]

I don’t know about you, but for me this case has been a roller coaster. I didn’t become aware of it until after the first identikit was released. I watched the BG video and tried to decipher what exactly I was looking at, coming up with something similar to the first identikit. I wasn’t able to identify what type of hat BG was wearing, but agreed that the hat in the identikit was about as close as I could come to any kind of solution.

Each time a new suspect was announced. I agreed they looked enough like the first identikit, that I was convinced LE had they’re man.

Then came the April,23 press conference where LE produced the second identikit accompanied by a profile.

This profile dramatically reduced the size of the suspect pool, and I saw an opportunity to not only speculate from the sidelines, but to participate in solving this case.

I do however have few resources, and even fewer skills. The only avenue I could come up with to identify the suspect depicted by the second identikit, was such a long shot, i didn’t even bother trying for a couple of days.

When I did finally google images of “Delfi Community”(it was something along those lines), I very quickly (and to my amazement) found what I was looking for.

Given my approximation of the suspect pool size, coupled with some less common attributes (namely the hair and large chin) possessed by the individual depicted by the second identikit. I found there to be no ambiguity as to whether or not this was the individual on which the second identikit was based.

I sent tips to both local LE and the official FBI tip line via emails.

Sat back and waited for an arrest.

It’s been four months now without any developments, and I’ve grown dubious.

In that time my view on the case has changed. I no longer see an individual resembling the first identikit when viewing the BG video. You may not agree, but if you’re interested, try pausing the video frame by frame until BG’s left ear becomes apparent, then use it as context to decipher the rest of the image. What I see is far clearer an image than any other hypothesis I’ve had of what the BG video actually represents. What I see is a young male with no hat, a knot in his hair at the top of his head, no facial hair, with his chin close to his chest, looking down as one might whilst trying to cross a bridge like this one. I see an image entirely consistent with the individual depicted by the second identikit.

In the time since I tipped authorities. I’ve also heard suggestion the first identikit closely resembles Mike Batty, Liberty German’s Grandfather. Upon examining the claim, I found myself in complete agreement. You may not agree, but for me I might even go so far as to suggest the first identikit looks more like him than it does any of the suspects.

If this first identikit is not BG, and he is not the culprit. Then who is he?

I reasoned this identikit may be a false positive. A timeline discrepancy that allowed a witness to falsely describe a suspect, that was in fact nothing more than Mike Batty innocently trying to find the girls. This is just an example, a hypothesis not based on the facts of what happened that day. I don’t have that information.

I also considered that the witness whom described the first identikit, may be the perpetrator. Unable to exit the area quickly enough, trying to divert attention away from themselves by pointing the finger in a direction where there is most likely motive to be found.

At the end of the day however, what I was not able to wrap my head around. Was, if the first identikit is not BG. Then how does he have a hat entirely consistent with, what I suggest is a common misinterpretation of the BG video.

On the other hand, if the BG video does depict a man wearing a hat like the one in the first identikit, and it turns out the first identikit is not BG. Then what are the odds he’s wearing a hat similar to the one worn by BG.

I’m not sure when LE got hold of the witness statement which produced the second identikit. It seems to me given the size of Delfi, it had to have been very early on.

My suggestion is, LE had possession of and ignored this statement, the only actual witness statement of an individual acting suspiciously in the area at the time of the crime. In favour of their own suspicion that Mike Batty was the culprit.

I suggest LE concocted the first identikit, in order to apply pressure to their suspect. Hopeful it would cause him to crack under said pressure, and confess.

I suggest this false identikit is a combination of two things. A (not too close to cause suspicion) depiction of Mike Batty, and a misinterpretation of what BG was wearing in the video.

I’m sure LE had the best of intentions, just not the most cleaver ones.

In the end, misleading an entire nation of both potential witnesses and victims, and allowing the actual perpetrator the opportunity to do a great deal more harm.

If this is an accurate account of the situation, then how do you think it will play out?

If LE was going to come clean wouldn’t they have done it by now, and if they’re planning to keep it quiet. How can there be a trial where a witness that does not exist, will have to be produced. How can you both catch the culprit and at the same time have no trial?

Perhaps neither will happen, and the perpetrator will either go scot-free or end up “quietly” dead in a ditch, leaving the case to remain unsolved.

What concerns me is (as I mentioned earlier), it’s been four months since they received a tip (Bangert: Upset! Delphi’s bracketology champs) that identifies not necessarily the culprit, but in my opinion the individual on which the second identikit is based. Yet the investigation has seemingly not moved.


I can feel the hate mail coming already, and I haven’t even posted yet.

This is just the way I see it, I’m not telling you what to think. I’m only posting out of a sense of social responsibility.

Regardless of what you think of my post, Thanks for reading.

Cheers.

Interesting about Delphi community...my POI has darker hair. And - I would not be sold on the chin. The sketch shows the man with a long chin, but a regular mouth. What I see on the video is the mouth covered by scarf, but slightly "indented", pushed inside. If the chin is noticeable, it is only because it is pointy, compared to the mouth. The whole face is slightly devilish-looking. I think I saw such a face in Delphi, very much like the video, but then, someone 20 miles from Delphi looks like it, too. And he seems pretty young. I drew it on my note but I am a bad drawer. The cheekbones are high, and the nasal bridge is wide.

The NBG sketch looks "Teutonic", with smooth features and a heavy chin.

The guy I see on the video resembles the guys I saw in Turkey, Greece or Italy. Very different facial structure - it has nothing to do with his real ethnicity, of course.

And, the person might look different from what I see because he is looking down, under his feet.

 

[Charlot123]

I don’t know about you, but for me this case has been a roller coaster. I didn’t become aware of it until after the first identikit was released. I watched the BG video and tried to decipher what exactly I was looking at, coming up with something similar to the first identikit. I wasn’t able to identify what type of hat BG was wearing, but agreed that the hat in the identikit was about as close as I could come to any kind of solution.

Each time a new suspect was announced. I agreed they looked enough like the first identikit, that I was convinced LE had they’re man.

Then came the April,23 press conference where LE produced the second identikit accompanied by a profile.

This profile dramatically reduced the size of the suspect pool, and I saw an opportunity to not only speculate from the sidelines, but to participate in solving this case.

I do however have few resources, and even fewer skills. The only avenue I could come up with to identify the suspect depicted by the second identikit, was such a long shot, i didn’t even bother trying for a couple of days.

When I did finally google images of “Delfi Community”(it was something along those lines), I very quickly (and to my amazement) found what I was looking for.

Given my approximation of the suspect pool size, coupled with some less common attributes (namely the hair and large chin) possessed by the individual depicted by the second identikit. I found there to be no ambiguity as to whether or not this was the individual on which the second identikit was based.

I sent tips to both local LE and the official FBI tip line via emails.

Sat back and waited for an arrest.

It’s been four months now without any developments, and I’ve grown dubious.

In that time my view on the case has changed. I no longer see an individual resembling the first identikit when viewing the BG video. You may not agree, but if you’re interested, try pausing the video frame by frame until BG’s left ear becomes apparent, then use it as context to decipher the rest of the image. What I see is far clearer an image than any other hypothesis I’ve had of what the BG video actually represents. What I see is a young male with no hat, a knot in his hair at the top of his head, no facial hair, with his chin close to his chest, looking down as one might whilst trying to cross a bridge like this one. I see an image entirely consistent with the individual depicted by the second identikit.

In the time since I tipped authorities. I’ve also heard suggestion the first identikit closely resembles Mike Batty, Liberty German’s Grandfather. Upon examining the claim, I found myself in complete agreement. You may not agree, but for me I might even go so far as to suggest the first identikit looks more like him than it does any of the suspects.

If this first identikit is not BG, and he is not the culprit. Then who is he?

I reasoned this identikit may be a false positive. A timeline discrepancy that allowed a witness to falsely describe a suspect, that was in fact nothing more than Mike Batty innocently trying to find the girls. This is just an example, a hypothesis not based on the facts of what happened that day. I don’t have that information.

I also considered that the witness whom described the first identikit, may be the perpetrator. Unable to exit the area quickly enough, trying to divert attention away from themselves by pointing the finger in a direction where there is most likely motive to be found.

At the end of the day however, what I was not able to wrap my head around. Was, if the first identikit is not BG. Then how does he have a hat entirely consistent with, what I suggest is a common misinterpretation of the BG video.

On the other hand, if the BG video does depict a man wearing a hat like the one in the first identikit, and it turns out the first identikit is not BG. Then what are the odds he’s wearing a hat similar to the one worn by BG.

I’m not sure when LE got hold of the witness statement which produced the second identikit. It seems to me given the size of Delfi, it had to have been very early on.

My suggestion is, LE had possession of and ignored this statement, the only actual witness statement of an individual acting suspiciously in the area at the time of the crime. In favour of their own suspicion that Mike Batty was the culprit.

I suggest LE concocted the first identikit, in order to apply pressure to their suspect. Hopeful it would cause him to crack under said pressure, and confess.

I suggest this false identikit is a combination of two things. A (not too close to cause suspicion) depiction of Mike Batty, and a misinterpretation of what BG was wearing in the video.

I’m sure LE had the best of intentions, just not the most cleaver ones.

In the end, misleading an entire nation of both potential witnesses and victims, and allowing the actual perpetrator the opportunity to do a great deal more harm.

If this is an accurate account of the situation, then how do you think it will play out?

If LE was going to come clean wouldn’t they have done it by now, and if they’re planning to keep it quiet. How can there be a trial where a witness that does not exist, will have to be produced. How can you both catch the culprit and at the same time have no trial?

Perhaps neither will happen, and the perpetrator will either go scot-free or end up “quietly” dead in a ditch, leaving the case to remain unsolved.

What concerns me is (as I mentioned earlier), it’s been four months since they received a tip (Bangert: Upset! Delphi’s bracketology champs) that identifies not necessarily the culprit, but in my opinion the individual on which the second identikit is based. Yet the investigation has seemingly not moved.


I can feel the hate mail coming already, and I haven’t even posted yet.

This is just the way I see it, I’m not telling you what to think. I’m only posting out of a sense of social responsibility.

Regardless of what you think of my post, Thanks for reading.

Cheers.

The LE are probably ashamed of own lapse <modsnip>

So the harm has already been done, and it was not in the LE acting like Harry Hole (i.e., against all the rules and regulations, relying on own intuition that can always fail us). It was merely in creating a certain level of mistrust in Indiana.

If they made a mistake and wont catch the killer, they will lose the respect and trust of the community. If they made a mistake and will catch the killer, they are heroes. I don't care how they do it. They have the video, the voice, probably can check where the POI's phone was, they have the DNA. They have the help of the FBI. They can't just lie on this case. Or hope that everyone forgets.

 

[Boxer]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Interesting about Delphi community...my POI has darker hair. And - I would not be sold on the chin. The sketch shows the man with a long chin, but a regular mouth. What I see on the video is the mouth covered by scarf, but slightly "indented", pushed inside. If the chin is noticeable, it is only because it is pointy, compared to the mouth. The whole face is slightly devilish-looking. I think I saw such a face in Delphi, very much like the video, but then, someone 20 miles from Delphi looks like it, too. And he seems pretty young. I drew it on my note but I am a bad drawer. The cheekbones are high, and the nasal bridge is wide.

The NBG sketch looks "Teutonic", with smooth features and a heavy chin.

The guy I see on the video resembles the guys I saw in Turkey, Greece or Italy. Very different facial structure - it has nothing to do with his real ethnicity, of course.

And, the person might look different from what I see because he is looking down, under his feet.

MOO The video is just too blurry in the face.
FWIW he looks like an unpleasant white man to me.

 

[Pedrosmom]

@Tippy Lynn , sometimes the clouds are full. My kid has clogged 50 GB of the cloud and I either have to remove it all, manually, because there is mine, too, or... I don't know. So if the cloud is full it stops synching. Libby's phone was reset, so what was there, was erased.

But yes, it would have been great to know what has been recovered.

I have personally worked with a company in Chicago that has retrieved data from very badly damaged phones for evidence in over 6 cases. The iCloud data would not have been useful if it wasn’t backed up after the bridge photo so we know that didn’t happen. In that case the data is stored to the phone. The phone data maintains what is most recent. A factory reset doesn’t remove all data. It’s there and I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Regarding whether anyone, other than RL, has been cleared: Carter said (in a May 22, 2019 Flora fire interview) that the "vast majority" of family members in the Delphi case have been cleared.

I've wondered which ones have not been cleared and why.

 

[Pedrosmom]

I would say nothing.
DA's duty is to protect citizens, the girls are citizens. The father was a threat to citizens so the DA's duty was to prosecute.

They no longer consider a drug cases violent crimes and hence a threat to citizens. There’s a lot being done to modify the drug crime sentences to more of rehab. BG is the threat. The prosecutor stood there to show BG that he has confidence in this case. The lack of a prosecutor at that PC would send a different message. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

Yes that's how I thought it all occured. I must be confused by what you said earlier that KG said Libby called her Dad for a ride while they were in KG's car sitting at the trailhead. I'm sorry if I misunderstood but that's why.

She did call DG at that point at the trailhead. BP trusted her to call him when they had the earlier conversation before she left. You will need to listen to BP explaining it if I have confused you but I cannot make it any clearer.

 

[tresir2012]

I do remember someone saying that Libby had Becky's phone, but I do also remember discussing Libby's phone having to be traced after being re-set. Could it be possible that Becky gave Libby her phone that day in case Libby's didn't work? And that perhaps BG took Becky's phone thinking that was all she had when in fact she had her other re-set phone that she used to record him? So she brought 2 phones to the trail in case one was unable to be used as a precaution. Just a thought.

No it isn't possible unless you have a link that says that.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I have personally worked with a company in Chicago that has retrieved data from very badly damaged phones for evidence in over 6 cases. The iCloud data would not have been useful if it wasn’t backed up after the bridge photo so we know that didn’t happen. In that case the data is stored to the phone. The phone data maintains what is most recent. A factory reset doesn’t remove all data. It’s there and I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

We don't know if the iPhone was backed up to the iCloud after the bridge photo or not. If the phone was recovered and depending on the settings it could have been backed up if it was on powered on and charging.

I agree, and I maybe wasn't clear, but I did say a factory reset doesn't erase everything for good. Usually data is recoverable after a factory reset.

 

[somequestions]

With tomorrow being Friday, the 13th it makes you wonder if the killer of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is still out there lurking around? Are the sketches accurate depictions of the killer and if not, does he know it now too? There still is the video/audio from Liberty German's phone. Since the Evansdale, Iowa kidnappings/murder of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook happened on Friday, July 13th, 2012, is there a connection to that case? Since I think the killer is a truck driver, is it just confirmation bias?

What is there in a date's number? Or as people looking at the case, do we just make that connection in our minds even though it could just be a number?

 

[Boxer]

They no longer consider a drug cases violent crimes and hence a threat to citizens. There’s a lot being done to modify the drug crime sentences to more of rehab. BG is the threat. The prosecutor stood there to show BG that he has confidence in this case. The lack of a prosecutor at that PC would send a different message. MOO

Meth possession dealing are felonies in Indiana.

Indiana Drug Possession Laws - FindLaw

 

[Charlot123]

With tomorrow being Friday, the 13th it makes you wonder if the killer of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is still out there lurking around? Are the sketches accurate depictions of the killer and if not, does he know it now too? There still is the video/audio from Liberty German's phone. Since the Evansdale, Iowa kidnappings/murder of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook happened on Friday, July 13th, 2012, is there a connection to that case? Since I think the killer is a truck driver, is it just confirmation bias?

What is there in a date's number? Or as people looking at the case, do we just make that connection in our minds even though it could just be a number?

I honestly think these cases are not connected. Sadly, too many murderers roaming this earth.

 

[TL4S]

Yes. ISP put that on the billboards as the time Libby recorded the video.

The FBI put 2:30 as the "last seen" time. They did not specify it was from Libby's video, so IMO, it could be from the video, the audio, a witness, the approx. TOD, etc.

This is JMO, but BG was not last seen on the bridge during the video. He was last seen by the girls the moment they died in the woods. And while we don't know whether witnesses saw BG before or after the murders, Carter (at the April PC) and Holeman (in the Fox59 interview, I believe) have said there is a witness or witnesses.

Maybe 2:07 is the factual SC photo time, and maybe 2:30 is the bridge video time, but as unpopular as it makes me, I can't consider either of those times accurate until I have some kind of confirmation. The entire timeline depends on this information.

 

[Charlot123]

The FBI put 2:30 as the "last seen" time. They did not specify it was from Libby's video, so IMO, it could be from the video, the audio, a witness, the approx. TOD, etc.

This is JMO, but BG was not last seen on the bridge during the video. He was last seen by the girls the moment they died in the woods. And while we don't know whether witnesses saw BG before or after the murders, Carter (at the April PC) and Holeman (in the Fox59 interview, I believe) have said there is a witness or witnesses.

Maybe 2:07 is the factual SC photo time, and maybe 2:30 is the bridge video time, but as unpopular as it makes me, I can't consider either of those times accurate until I have some kind of confirmation. The entire timeline depends on this information.

But, while we assume that BG is the murderer, he may not be. Maybe the second one was waiting in the woods? We don’t know who and what (and even where) the girls saw last. So they are putting the time of the last sighting. Let it stay so - because officially, he is BG. Presumption of innocence, etc.

 

[susiQ]

But, while we assume that BG is the murderer, he may not be. Maybe the second one was waiting in the woods? We don’t know who and what (and even where) the girls saw last. So they are putting the time of the last sighting. Let it stay so - because officially, he is BG. Presumption of innocence, etc.

Good point! It is rather contradictory to emphatically state that BG is the killer when you haven't ruled out that more than one individual could be involved. Scratching my head again

 

[somequestions]

I think the two sketches were guesses by law enforcement. I am not in law enforcement so this is my opinion only.

On the surface this appears to be an easy case. But when you get right down to it, there might not have been an eyewitness who saw this offender leave the Monon High Bridge area or if they did see the offender leave, did not give law enforcement a good description. And after over 2 1/2 years you have to wonder if this offender is local to the Delphi, Indiana area.

The reality is probably this: There are only two eyewitnesses and unfortunately they are not alive. Despite her effort, the video/audio recording from Liberty German's phone was not good enough to enhance to get a clear image of the offender.

Look at any murder case long enough and you will realize something important. Solving a murder case when you don't have an eyewitness is tough. Even if you have physical evidence you still need someone to connect it to. Just ask any family waiting for resolution in their particular case.

When it comes to taking chances sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you don't.

 

[Mike Britton]

But when you get right down to it, there might not have been an eyewitness who saw this offender leave the Monon High Bridge area or if they did see the offender leave, did not give law enforcement a good description. And after over 2 1/2 years you have to wonder if this offender is local to the Delphi, Indiana area.

If there was no eyewitness, how was the YBG sketch created?

 

[PaulaDC]

I don't know where Abby's brother lived but why do you think it was Kentucky? That was Libby's mum and siblings that lived in Kentucky. I think Grandfather Bridge was just speculating and he says right at the end what he really thinks, that Libby would be somewhere if she said she would. (Posted earlier).

I don't think he lived in Kentucky. I think he possibly lived close enough for the girls to hide out at his place. My curiosity is why he isn't mentioned anywhere else as the other siblings, half siblings, step family, bio family, family by marriage etc. all seem to be mentioned as "family".

 

[Spartygirl]

No it isn't possible unless you have a link that says that.

Agree..Libby had Libby's phone