Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[busymcmoody]

In order for LE to say that BG is for sure the murderer don't you think they must have more video of what took place? How else can they so assuredly say that?

I had a heating/cooling guy here doing a repair earlier in the week and he really resembled the BG original sketch. He also had the same stature and the same type of boots as BG. If I’m honest, I’m just always on the lookout for guys who look like him. I’m a ways from IN but there was that announcement way back when from LE saying the search for BG was extended to southeast TN. I know they claim that was misinformation, but it still seems so random and weird to me.

In another group I'm in on this case, there’s a girl from, Terre Haute, who was in nursing school when the murders happened. The girls’ autopsies were performed there at the local hospital by Dr. Ronald Kohr. She knew Dr.Kohr b/c she'd done several autopsies with him during clinicals. She said they talked about Libby & Abby but he didn’t go into specifics about the case for obvious reasons. He said it was one of the most horrific cases he’s ever been involved with. He said they really suffered, especially Libby.

Counting the days 'til this piece of **** is caught.

Damn. The rumors have been around but it never stops hurting when I hear that they suffered so much. I can imagine that Libby suffered more because her grandfather said she would have fought like crazy.

 

[Justice101]

I was sold on that group of meth users. however that Apr 2019 press conference was not addressed to the meth group. that presser implied it was someone respected by the community. I believe the killer or the killer's dad was at the press conference.

Here is a photo of the press conference.. . 90% reporters and LE.

 

[busymcmoody]

Here is a photo of the press conference.. . 90% reporters and LE.

DC at the presser always gets me. Just look at his posture.

 

[Justice101]

Damn. The rumors have been around but it never stops hurting when I hear that they suffered so much. I can imagine that Libby suffered more because her grandfather said she would have fought like crazy.

That is 4th person. A lot can be lost in the translation when it goes thru 4 people. take it for only what's it's worth.

 

[busymcmoody]

That is 4th person. A lot can be lost in the translation when it goes thru 4 people. take it for only what's it's worth.

It's not about whether this is a rumor or fact. It's the imagination that runs wild. That is what it hurts. The what if.

 

[Falling Down]

No, I believe you had something. If one parent - say the mother - got a job teaching or in city/county government in Delphi, they could have lived in or near Delphi while the father commuted to Grissom. At most it was 36 miles, less if they lived to the east or northeast of Delphi. My commute, in probably MUCH heavier traffic to a Navy base was almost 30 miles. And sometimes the rules are strange. For example, the children of military families on Naval Weapons Station Earle do not go to the nearby schools, but attend schools in the next township or county over, based on an agreement between the Navy and the local government.

Great points, here.

I've lived on and really near some bases. People often times travel upwards of 45 min. to an hour or more to work on them, military and civilian workers and contractors. Wouldn't surprise me if people in or around Delphi are currently associated with the base,

Often times joint, national guard, and reserve bases have lots of people who train on them throughout a year. So lots of folks passing through. Permanent personnel on such a base might number in the hundreds, but total service members and people passing through in a given fiscal year could number in the many thousands.

I've thought there's a very real chance that BG could have a military background, LE background, both military and LE, could be a military brat, was kicked out of the armed forces, could have been denied enlistment and/or a LE job, etc. Since sleuthing this case I've come across any number of convicted killers who fit within those profiles, especially wannabe types and ex-military, the latter often times are involuntarily discharged or had discipline issues while in uniform.

Military units using Grissom could be active, reserve, and national guard. Any one of the armed services. When I was active we used a guard/reserve base in Virginia, twice per year. Also possible LE could use Grissom's facilities, if they have any for specialized training.

Permanent personnel with kids would have them in local public or private schools, as there are none on that base I'm aware of.

EDIT: Often times reservists will travel a considerable distance for drill weekends, same for Air National Guard. Friends of mine in the reserves would travel 5-6 hours for drill weekends.

JMO

 

[southernswede]

It's not about whether this is a rumor or fact. It's the imagination that runs wild. That is what it hurts. The what if.

Well, I wasn't trying to spread rumors. Like you, I was heartbroken when I read it. Maybe I shouldn't have shared it. I also read where Libby's granddaddy said she would have fought like crazy. Watching videos of her and listening to her family talk she surely was a firecracker.

It's not about whether this is a rumor or fact. It's the imagination that runs wild. That is what it hurts. The what if.

Well, I'm not trying to spread rumors. Like you, I was beyond hurt when I read it. Maybe I shouldn't have shared it. I also read where Libby's granddaddy said she would have fought like crazy. Watching videos and listening to her family talk about her she was a firecracker.

 

[busymcmoody]

Well, I'm not trying to spread rumors. Like you, I was beyond hurt when I read it. Maybe I shouldn't have shared it. I also read where Libby's granddaddy said she would have fought like crazy. Watching videos and listening to her family talk about her she was a firecracker.

Exactly!

 

[stattlich1]

If this was premeditated and targeted, is the thought that it was planned before that afternoon? And if so, even if BG somehow knew the girls were going to the trail, how was he to know he'd have that small open window of opportunity to commit the crime? Was he following them and waiting for the opening, which just happened perfectly when they crossed the bridge? Was he willing to not go through with it if it didn't work perfectly?

My thoughts.....They knew the area well, they knew the neighbors were not home, they knew the girls, they knew the girls were going there, they had the escape route planned, they had the murder site planned. BG waited for their arrival, followed them, herded them 'down the hill' where 2nd perp waited. The girls were immediately either 1. rendered unconscious, or 2. rendered silent in some way. They crossed the creek to the more remote spot. One killed them while the other went to get the car for escape. Killer walks out of the woods, jumps in car, and off they go.

I see it a possible the killer(s) did not originally intend to murder, however, things went sour, and it resulted in it. This would lead me to speculate that the move across the creek, and the escape method would have been quite hasty. However, in haste, killers often make mistakes. The fact there has yet to be an arrest tells me that little if nothing of material evidence belonging to the killer(s) was left at the scene.

I think they used the car at the abandoned building as an escape vehicle, OR, they had a car in the cemetery and made their escape via that route.

Rumor has it that there is little DNA. Who knows? However, if the scene was 'cleaned' of DNA then for me that would be an indicator of planning.

Think about someone you do not know, that you saw this morning, that you ran in to, and see how accurately you can describe them. Someone you walked past on the sidewalk, in the grocery store, or a parking lot. Not someone you talked to at length, or sat next to on a bus, but somebody you simply walked past. I know I am really bad at accurate recall.

The theory is that someone walked right past the murderer on this day, possibly looked straight at him, and provided the details for a sketch. Possibly two folks claim to have seen him, and provided details for 2 sketches. They even have a video of him. They have a voice recording. They allude that they know the second sketch is representative of the BG. They state that they believe BG to be from Delphi, a quite small town. Yet can not catch him.

Hmmmmmm.

 

[Rossymom]

Great points, here.

I've lived on and really near some bases. People often times travel upwards of 45 min. to an hour or more to work on them, military and civilian workers and contractors. Wouldn't surprise me if people in or around Delphi are currently associated with the base,

Often times joint, national guard, and reserve bases have lots of people who train on them throughout a year. So lots of folks passing through. Permanent personnel on such a base might number in the hundreds, but total service members and people passing through in a given fiscal year could number in the many thousands.

I've thought there's a very real chance that BG could have a military background, LE background, both military and LE, could be a military brat, was kicked out of the armed forces, could have been denied enlistment and/or a LE job, etc. Since sleuthing this case I've come across any number of convicted killers who fit within those profiles, especially wannabe types and ex-military, the latter often times are involuntarily discharged or had discipline issues while in uniform.

Military units using Grissom could be active, reserve, and national guard. Any one of the armed services. When I was active we used a guard/reserve base in Virginia, twice per year. Also possible LE could use Grissom's facilities, if they have any for specialized training.

Permanent personnel with kids would have them in local public or private schools, as there are none on that base I'm aware of.

EDIT: Often times reservists will travel a considerable distance for drill weekends, same for Air National Guard. Friends of mine in the reserves would travel 5-6 hours for drill weekends.

JMO

Also, for what's its worth....Grissom has a prison on their grounds. There are soldiers who drill on this base from all over Indiana. They make the drive for their scheduled weekends. How do I know? I'm married to a CW3 and have two sons who serve. One serves at Grissom.

 

[Vesta66S]

Even though I lean more towards an unplanned, random attack, I'm not totally closed off to the premeditated, targeted idea, especially since we don't know what happened. But here's my question:

If this was premeditated and targeted, is the thought that it was planned before that afternoon? And if so, even if BG somehow knew the girls were going to the trail, how was he to know he'd have that small open window of opportunity to commit the crime? Was he following them and waiting for the opening, which just happened perfectly when they crossed the bridge? Was he willing to not go through with it if it didn't work perfectly? Even then, at any point along the way someone else could have entered the scene. This is what keeps me leaning toward it being a random act.

If it was unplanned. How could he control two girls and kill them that quickly? I think he stalked them like a prey. Maybe even set up a camera to monitor trail to be alerted if anyone entered. Just speculating of course.

 

[PaulaDC]

yes, I remember. It was a young male (allegedly related to Libby). The “confrontation” occurred three weeks prior to the murders near the same trail entrance the girls were dropped off at. The bench at the intersection.

(ok I just self deleted most of this post because I’m not sure it’s allowed).

That's what I'm talkin' about! Things that make you go hmmm. Moo

 

[tresir2012]

You know what I don’t see? Something closer to Carroll County. I think for an army brat, to go to school in the county, he has to live in the county. Even Grissom base is too far. MOO

Well what about Armory Road, Delphi where the school is located. Is there still an Armory there?

 

[tresir2012]

No, I believe you had something. If one parent - say the mother - got a job teaching or in city/county government in Delphi, they could have lived in or near Delphi while the father commuted to Grissom. At most it was 36 miles, less if they lived to the east or northeast of Delphi. My commute, in probably MUCH heavier traffic to a Navy base was almost 30 miles. And sometimes the rules are strange. For example, the children of military families on Naval Weapons Station Earle do not go to the nearby schools, but attend schools in the next township or county over, based on an agreement between the Navy and the local government.

Very interesting. 36 miles is certainly not a long commute.

 

[Boxer]

If he is a human, there should be some matches, even in CODIS, maybe not close ones, maybe with common ancestor from 1700es, but something should be there. If there is nothing, it means that most likely, he is a recent immigrant from another country. Or that he belongs to a group that does not submit their DNAs (and I can’t imagine who it could be - even if he is Amish, he would cross- match with descendants of Germans and Dutch. Maybe even more than IRL because of endogamy.)

The police an this case are strangely cagey.
Between not searching through the night, to make a discovery earlier and get the chase on faster, and telling local criminals that they will be prosecuted if anything illegal is found while searching for the killer I would say they missed their start window, and dried up their most likely source of meaningful tips.
I would say it is likely that all the misinformation about DNA means there was no relevant DNA found.
Maybe there is some touch DNA by a relative, but wad easily explained by the sweater being handed to one of the girls or etc..

 

[tresir2012]

Or, they may have collected all their POIs, short-listed them and made a collective portrait, so to say, with a chin from one, a mole from another one, a car from the third one, hoping that the pressure might make someone crack. They, too, probably have enough POIs on their list.

In the meantime, the labs are working at DNAs. I hope they forbade their POIs to leave IN, or if the kids as out of state, they are to stay at college premises.

Ha so really a composite POI sketch. They did say he would look something like the sketch.

 

[minazoe]

It almost sounds like you are suggesting martial law. You do realize that in most situations curfews are unconstitutional? There is no riot or insurrection going on so a curfew is out. What “rules” would you suggest? How would the police “crack down heavily”?

I want to hear more about your plan.

sorry for a late response, I guess I mean like curfews on the parks and cracking down on the flora and fauna , the usual suspects.. I know it's small town but there is an underbelly there, sex offenders and what not..the police department can make things difficult and maybe they can squeeze out a name. And no , of course I don't suggest a "police state"..they need to work harder, sorry..my grandmother was a detective and I mean no disrespect..it's the toughest job there is in so many ways, but they have to solve it...they have to press harder.

mOO

 

[Boxer]

sorry for a late response, I guess I mean like curfews on the parks and cracking down on the flora and fauna , the usual suspects.. I know it's small town but there is an underbelly there, sex offenders and what not..the police department can make things difficult and maybe they can squeeze out a name. And no , of course I don't suggest a "police state"..they need to work harder, sorry..my grandmother was a detective and I mean no disrespect..it's the toughest job there is in so many ways, but they have to solve it...they have to press harder.

mOO

I agree.
MOO The woods near towns need clearing out. Parks and woods need to close at sunset with penalties for being found there.
And I doubt that Leazenby has a productive relationship with the homeless and needy of Carrol County.

 

[somequestions]

Well something similar did happen in Colorado with a former POI who was just driving past a search party acting suspiciously so, yes, I think it can happen. In that case they had a photograph of the car though.

I wonder if the person who called it in was basing it on the video or on the 1st sketch that had been released at the time?

Here is why I think the 2nd sketch could really confuse people.

Unlike a lot of us that follow the case, most everyone else has either probably not heard about the case or only knows it casually from when it first happened in 2017 when it was big news.

So lets say someone is walking down the street and comes across a poster of either the sketch or the sketch/video image. If they have not been following the case and the April 22, 2019 press conference, wouldn't the casual observer just think that the sketch is based off a close-up of the video? Wouldn't they assume that the man in the video has to be as young as the man in the sketch? By putting the picture from the video on the same poster as the sketch, won't people link the two together?

I know that we do not know what LE does, but in my opinion it comes down to two theories. Either LE is very confident that the new sketch from April is representative of the man on the bridge or LE is wrong and anybody in the public who comes across this poster is going to be looking for the wrong man. People will think the picture from the video and the new sketch are one and the same, even if they are not.

I guess we just have to wait and see when today is the day will be.

 

[Eleanor Grace Irving]

Pure moo. What if this whole situation was a father 'getting even' for statements whether true or not on social media regarding his child/sister/niece? A revenge attack?