Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[JnRyan]

I have nothing British in me, except for admiration of Sir Winston Churchill, lol!

But in my part of the US, dogs and cats are cared for. We might well be the most animal-friendly state. )))

My mistake....carry on..

 

[Charlot123]

Here is the one I was talking about.

Young Man Wearing Old Man Mask Nabbed on Flight to Canada

BTW, the person who collects such masks would be into cosplay, not so far from a younger, smart, planner, who is more of a loner and probably not in any codex system, if he doesn’t wasn’t to be. He can find the whole wardrobe of “a middle-aged Indiana hunter“ with ease on Etsy or EBay. And since LE likely knows of his other hobbies, it is probably possible to find an “overlap” of mask collector and cold weapons collector on one of these vendors’ sites, Someone who bought before 2017. I wonder if a computer could do such a search.

This could explain why the sudden change of the face mid-way.

 

[Justice101]

Read pages 9 thru 14... and am now up to date with the discussion. Sadly, in another year without some news on the case, there other 50% of us will be gone from this thread too., Still following for now...

 

[rosesfromangels]

BTW, the person who collects such masks would be into cosplay, not so far from a younger, smart, planner, who is more of a loner and probably not in any codex system, if he doesn’t wasn’t to be. He can find the whole wardrobe of “a middle-aged Indiana hunter“ with ease on Etsy or EBay. And since LE likely knows of his other hobbies, it is probably possible to find an “overlap” of mask collector and cold weapons collector on one of these vendors’ sites, Someone who bought before 2017. I wonder if a computer could do such a search.

This could explain why the sudden change of the face mid-way.

This is really developing in to an intriguing theory....

 

[Andieinsyd]

A couple of things are on my mind re this crime - it was callous (involved killing children) and it was brazen (took place near the end of a high rickety bridge in a public place in daylight with two victims). To me this does indicate that the person likely has a significant deficit in empathy/compassion and also in feeling fear/anxiety. We have presumed that to carry out this brazen crime, he must have known his environment, he shows no fear of the high bridge, his voice sounds controlled, not heightened and he seems confident in his surroundings.

However, if this person does have a real deficit of feelings of fear and anxiety, maybe he is not from the area. Maybe he just doesn’t really experience fear of consequences and so was able to just carry out this crime as opportunity presented (happened to be in the area for some reason) and wing it to get out of there. Fear/anxiety clouds our minds and makes it difficult to plan and think, lack of this could equal a person able to carry out a brutal crime and walk away.

I also think these proposed traits may deter a family member/ spouse calling in a tip. This guy is perhaps violent and terrifying enough to deter someone close to them from putting in a tip in case they were found out.

My options and thoughts only.

 

[Rural_PC]

I am an outdoors person. I hunt and observe animals closely. Land predators use topography to their advantage when preying and when hiding. I am also a land surveyor and work with civil engineering. I make digital terrain models of land. I cannot get past the reporting that where the bodies were found is in an area of topographic relief that afforded the killer some privacy. To me that says he was very familiar with the lay of the land. It could be that someone from out of the area studied the kill site. It is much more probable to me that the killer had intimate knowledge of the area.

 

[sunshineray]

I am an outdoors person. I hunt and observe animals closely. Land predators use topography to their advantage when preying and when hiding. I am also a land surveyor and work with civil engineering. I make digital terrain models of land. I cannot get past the reporting that where the bodies were found is in an area of topographic relief that afforded the killer some privacy. To me that says he was very familiar with the lay of the land. It could be that someone from out of the area studied the kill site. It is much more probable to me that the killer had intimate knowledge of the area.

This is also what those 3 former FBI specialists (I think it was one profiler and two special agents?) said on that podcast about the Delphi murders, that the killer had previously been to and prepared a "lair" to bring his victim(s).

It does make some sense but then I keep thinking why would crossing the creek be part of the killer's plan? Why not wait for that girls to cross back over the bridge/creek since he knew they had to (or did he?) as the trail ended on the cross-over side and his "lair" was there?

If we think Libby lost her shoe in a run away towards the creek then crossing it and killing them there was probably an improvisation and not killer's first choice? Was the trail's end something he knew well, no other paths out except through private property or did he choose to approach them on that side because is would have less hiker traffic for having no official egress?

I just don't know with any confidence how the spot/crime scene came to be where it was...without more crime scene descriptive information that shows preparation. AJMO

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Not sure if this has been answered. We don't, not 100%, but LE went from saying he was a potential witness, just someone they wanted to talk to, begged for them to come forward, to calling him a Person of Interest, and I think within a short period of time after that, to saying he was the killer. I presume that it is because he is the only person from that day that did not come forward. In this small town, that was an unbelieveably huge crime with not that many people there that day. I would guess that they were sure they heard from everyone that was seen that day except for him. I suppose it could be a huge coincidence that there was a random out of towner there just for one day that never heard about the murders, never watches the news. Or/and based on the timing of the video, they are sure that there couldn't have been anyone else there who interacted with the girls.

Sorry I can't go back right now and look through the media links to identify when he went from a mere POI to presumed killer, but I'll try if I can later.

Quoted bbm

It took LE approx 31 hours from when they were found to release the pics.

It took 5 days from when they were found for them to call him a suspect. I agree with you. After they were sure they had identified everyone who was on the trail that day who came forward, they took the timing of their electronic evidence and made their conclusion that he was there during the crime.

It took 8 days from when they were found for them to release the audio and notify the public that Libby videoed him.

Feb 15th, 2017 the photo was released 7PM - ISP wants to identify this man from Delphi trail

Feb 19th, 2017 police call him a suspect 12:30PM Police: Man in photos now 'main suspect' in 2 girls' deaths - WISH-TV | Indianapolis News | Indiana Weather | Indiana Traffic

Feb 22, 2017 press conference 10AM where LE released the audio and identified Libby as a 'hero.'

“To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior is about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”
ISP: Liberty German is a hero

JMO

 

[Rural_PC]

This is also what those 3 former FBI specialists (I think it was one profiler and two special agents?) said on that podcast about the Delphi murders, that the killer had previously been to and prepared a "lair" to bring his victim(s).

It does make some sense but then I keep thinking why would crossing the creek be part of the killer's plan? Why not wait for that girls to cross back over the bridge/creek since he knew they had to (or did he?) as the trail ended on the cross-over side and his "lair" was there?

If we think Libby lost her shoe in a run away towards the creek then crossing it and killing them there was probably an improvisation and not killer's first choice? Was the trail's end something he knew well, no other paths out except through private property or did he choose to approach them on that side because is would have less hiker traffic for having no official egress?

I just don't know with any confidence how the spot/crime scene came to be where it was...without more crime scene descriptive information that shows preparation. AJMO

The creek crossing is one of many things that are hard to place.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

The creek crossing is one of many things that are hard to place.

This short comment has prompted me to share that at one point in time, I had believed that he was in full control of them the entire time from the south end of the bridge right up until they reached the crime scene.

Now....I am not so sure.

One possibility that has occurred to me is if he parked on the road that turns into a private driveway (he was watching the bridge from there looking for a victim) and when he saw someone start to cross, he came from down there up the hill. Maybe that is what got Libby nervous in the first place, wondering what he was doing. I have tried to experiment with maps and photos and ariel views with this scenario and I think it is possible. Perhaps @Falling Down or @Awsi Dooger would share their thoughts on this part.

He could have crossed the bridge to make sure nobody was on the other side watching/waiting for the girls (parents, etc.) and Libby started filming him on his way back from the north side.

I realize it does over-complicate the scenario by suggesting him crossing from south to north and back.....but there is no evidence to suggest that she started the video from the moment we as the public, see it.

It also makes sense to me that he needed to ensure that there was nobody else in proximity of the bridge waiting for the girls at the north end in order to pull off what he had planned. Maybe he originally thought it was a lone female crossing and didn't realize until he got to the south end of the bridge that there was two females, but by then there was no turning back for him.

Perhaps LE is keeping this info from the public to weed out false confessions and that's why they say the re-enactments are wrong. She could have been videoing him for several minutes as he started back on his return south from the north side, but since it is so pixelated, it doesn't help their case to show this part as well. I do think that the phone went into her pocket immediately as we see the video stop.

The only other audio we know about is (from Anna's Renner interview) Libby saying, (paraphrased) 'the trail ends here, we can't go any further.' Perhaps the girls were discussing a way for them to get away from him by the time he got back from the north side and then he got to them too quickly before they could make that decision?

It's where Libby's shoe was found that makes me keep on wondering if the girls were running away from him after 'down the hill' and they crossed the creek during the abduction attempt. This has been discussed here many times.

If his car was right 'down the hill' it would be easy for him to pull a gun out and get them down there into the trunk in moments and maybe he didn't anticipate that they would try to run away once they got to the bottom.

In this scenario, his car also would have been left parked unattended somewhere on the road for (up to an hour?), leaving it visible for others to see (maybe he got lucky?) and maybe he would have succeeded with the abduction if he hadn't crossed the bridge at all.

A year ago I thought we were only weeks away from an arrest and I was wrong.

Without this audio and video, I really have to wonder what type of info (if any) would LE have released to the public in order to gain assistance with tips?

I am so glad that this maniac was stupid enough to underestimate the intuitions of 13 and 14 year old girls.

I still believe that LE is continuing to gather enough admissible evidence against a specific man and that they will not make an arrest until they are 1000% sure that he will be convicted.

No second chances, no room for any errors here.

JMO (and my apologies for the length of this post!)

 

[crhedBngr]

I am an outdoors person. I hunt and observe animals closely. Land predators use topography to their advantage when preying and when hiding. I am also a land surveyor and work with civil engineering. I make digital terrain models of land. I cannot get past the reporting that where the bodies were found is in an area of topographic relief that afforded the killer some privacy. To me that says he was very familiar with the lay of the land. It could be that someone from out of the area studied the kill site. It is much more probable to me that the killer had intimate knowledge of the area.

THIS^^^^

JMVHO.

 

[Kittybunny]

Quoted bbm

It took LE approx 31 hours from when they were found to release the pics.

It took 5 days from when they were found for them to call him a suspect. I agree with you. After they were sure they had identified everyone who was on the trail that day who came forward, they took the timing of their electronic evidence and made their conclusion that he was there during the crime.

It took 8 days from when they were found for them to release the audio and notify the public that Libby videoed him.

Feb 15th, 2017 the photo was released 7PM - ISP wants to identify this man from Delphi trail

Feb 19th, 2017 police call him a suspect 12:30PM Police: Man in photos now 'main suspect' in 2 girls' deaths - WISH-TV | Indianapolis News | Indiana Weather | Indiana Traffic

Feb 22, 2017 press conference 10AM where LE released the audio and identified Libby as a 'hero.'

“To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior is about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”
ISP: Liberty German is a hero

JMO

Thank you for this! Great stuff!

 

[rosesfromangels]

I am an outdoors person. I hunt and observe animals closely. Land predators use topography to their advantage when preying and when hiding. I am also a land surveyor and work with civil engineering. I make digital terrain models of land. I cannot get past the reporting that where the bodies were found is in an area of topographic relief that afforded the killer some privacy. To me that says he was very familiar with the lay of the land. It could be that someone from out of the area studied the kill site. It is much more probable to me that the killer had intimate knowledge of the area.

Perhaps this goes beyond a local yokel who knows the holler, to perhaps someone who did a more sophisticated geospatial study.
They seemingly knew the acoustics as well.

Perhaps I am giving this miscreant too much credit for strategic planning. After all, he apparently didn’t leave them in the creek where DNA could be diminished, and the little hero Libby’s phone was found at the scene.

Yet, if I expand this line of thinking, I’m wondering what occupations might have the capabilities to plan in this manner...

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Falling Down]

I am an outdoors person. I hunt and observe animals closely. Land predators use topography to their advantage when preying and when hiding. I am also a land surveyor and work with civil engineering. I make digital terrain models of land. I cannot get past the reporting that where the bodies were found is in an area of topographic relief that afforded the killer some privacy. To me that says he was very familiar with the lay of the land. It could be that someone from out of the area studied the kill site. It is much more probable to me that the killer had intimate knowledge of the area.

I agree with all of this, I love the outdoors and spend lots of time hiking and walking in nature.

@Rural_PC you would appreciate the LIDAR maps of the gorge there, they're easily found online.

BG has to know that gorge along in that area, and had to have known it in advance, if not for a long time. I've seen old USGS aerial photos from decades ago which show that area along there, before it became overgrown with trees and other greenery. BG had to have known the topography, in order to carry out the crimes and then slip out of there. He used it to his advantage, it even helped BG obscure the murders as they happened but also the bodies. In more recent decades it's become very overgrown.

This aerial photo from early 1992 shows the gravel quarry, which is now abandoned. It sits just below the cemetery, in the gorge, between the cemetery and the crime scene. Just to the right (our right) of the quarry there in the photo is the makeshift road used to get down there, RL and a reporter were right there when he was interviewed that week. It appears easy to walk down, but fairly steep to walk up that road/drive out of the gorge. Still, RL was in his late-70's and was able to walk down then up it just fine.

The shot below of news segment is looking roughly due west, from the drive adjacent to the quarry, the berm is right there next to the reporter. The berm goes around the entire quarry. On foot from there to the NW approach to the bridge would be just under 3/8 of a mile.

The berm around it, along with the dense vegetation in spots in that general area of he gorge, were perfect concealment IMO, even in February.

Edit: The green box in the aerial photo is roughly where the girls were found,

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

This short comment has prompted me to share that at one point in time, I had believed that he was in full control of them the entire time from the south end of the bridge right up until they reached the crime scene.

Now....I am not so sure.

One possibility that has occurred to me is if he parked on the road that turns into a private driveway (he was watching the bridge from there looking for a victim) and when he saw someone start to cross, he came from down there up the hill. Maybe that is what got Libby nervous in the first place, wondering what he was doing. I have tried to experiment with maps and photos and ariel views with this scenario and I think it is possible. Perhaps @Falling Down or @Awsi Dooger would share their thoughts on this part.

He could have crossed the bridge to make sure nobody was on the other side watching/waiting for the girls (parents, etc.) and Libby started filming him on his way back from the north side.

I realize it does over-complicate the scenario by suggesting him crossing from south to north and back.....but there is no evidence to suggest that she started the video from the moment we as the public, see it.

It also makes sense to me that he needed to ensure that there was nobody else in proximity of the bridge waiting for the girls at the north end in order to pull off what he had planned. Maybe he originally thought it was a lone female crossing and didn't realize until he got to the south end of the bridge that there was two females, but by then there was no turning back for him.

Perhaps LE is keeping this info from the public to weed out false confessions and that's why they say the re-enactments are wrong. She could have been videoing him for several minutes as he started back on his return south from the north side, but since it is so pixelated, it doesn't help their case to show this part as well. I do think that the phone went into her pocket immediately as we see the video stop.

The only other audio we know about is (from Anna's Renner interview) Libby saying, (paraphrased) 'the trail ends here, we can't go any further.' Perhaps the girls were discussing a way for them to get away from him by the time he got back from the north side and then he got to them too quickly before they could make that decision?

It's where Libby's shoe was found that makes me keep on wondering if the girls were running away from him after 'down the hill' and they crossed the creek during the abduction attempt. This has been discussed here many times.

If his car was right 'down the hill' it would be easy for him to pull a gun out and get them down there into the trunk in moments and maybe he didn't anticipate that they would try to run away once they got to the bottom.

In this scenario, his car also would have been left parked unattended somewhere on the road for (up to an hour?), leaving it visible for others to see (maybe he got lucky?) and maybe he would have succeeded with the abduction if he hadn't crossed the bridge at all.

A year ago I thought we were only weeks away from an arrest and I was wrong.

Without this audio and video, I really have to wonder what type of info (if any) would LE have released to the public in order to gain assistance with tips?

I am so glad that this maniac was stupid enough to underestimate the intuitions of 13 and 14 year old girls.

I still believe that LE is continuing to gather enough admissible evidence against a specific man and that they will not make an arrest until they are 1000% sure that he will be convicted.

No second chances, no room for any errors here.

JMO (and my apologies for the length of this post!)

IMO that's all too much work for BG.

My hunch re: any notion of a vehicle there on the drive which ends up as C.R. 625 is it's private property at that point, and would have looked suspicious coming along C.R. 625 northbound earlier that afternoon or in late morning, from the houses along there. LE have not mentioned any vehicle parked on that drive that day that they're looking for, but they are looking for information about a vehicle and its driver that were parked along C.R. 300 by the old CPS building

It's where Libby's shoe was found that makes me keep on wondering if the girls were running away from him after 'down the hill' and they crossed the creek during the abduction attempt. This has been discussed here many times.

Judging by the pictures I've seen from Feb. 14th of roughly where they crossed the creek, it was muddy along the creek bed. When I visited the area in '17 I visited Riley Park, it was fairly dry in August, the creek was low, but you could see by the suspension (walking) bridge the walls of the creek bed were damp, up to almost 5 feet I would say. I'm 5'8" tall, and I could see the soil, clay, and vegetation were damp along there where the creek narrows at the east end of town.

The creek's depth varies wildly, seems like in hard rains and after significant snow melts it can rise a few feet or more, in spots. So I picture along the sides of the creek, all the way up where it rises, and down through Delphi to the river, stays muddy throughout the year.

My take is Libby's foot/shoe got stuck in the mud, and when she pulled it out of the mud the shoe came off.

JMO

 

[somequestions]

I haven't followed this case in a couple of years. But three years and 122 threads later, no one has been arrested.
Looking for an opinion, is LE any closer than they were three years ago to resolving this case?

I do not think they are any closer than they were on February 14, 2017 when the case started. No one knows what LE knows, but I keep wondering how they have come to the conclusion that the killer is most likely a local. The idea, stated at the press conference last year, that the killer "could be in this room" is based on what sort of evidence? Without knowing what they know it is hard to say.

I just hope it is not based on someone thinking that the Monon High Bridge trail is hard to find and would only be known to locals. Therefore, the killer must have been familiar with the Monon High Bridge trail and is most likely from the local area. That is no different than many youtubers who have "investigated" the case.

I have studied this so I know a little about it. While it is true that being comfortable with an area is key to how a killer perceives a particular place and their relation to that place, it is not an end all be all solution. Yes, most crimes are solved because the killer lives within a particular geographic area that can be somewhat defined. But public places present a problem much in the same way that interstate highway travel presents a problem. A person can become familiar with a particular place, whether that be a park or a rest stop, and feel comfortable enough to know that place without actually living there or in the general area. In my opinion, this could be someone who has visited the Monon High Bridge trail a few times in the past but does not live anywhere near the local area. And it could also be someone who has visited the Monon High Bridge trail and lives close by too.

But after 3 years and such a small town, I would caution that without expanding the investigation outside of Indiana, this case may go on for years. The one bright spot is the video which could make this a completely different case if someone recognizes the man on the bridge and calls in a tip no matter where they are located.

I think LE thought they would have this case solved in a few days. I thought so too. But as time wore on, I started to get the impression that maybe the reason no one has phoned in a tip that has led to an arrest is because like myself at the time and so many others who saw the case on tv, we all thought it had to be a local.

I do not know if that is the case anymore.

 

[MistyWaters]

Quoted bbm

It took LE approx 31 hours from when they were found to release the pics.

It took 5 days from when they were found for them to call him a suspect. I agree with you. After they were sure they had identified everyone who was on the trail that day who came forward, they took the timing of their electronic evidence and made their conclusion that he was there during the crime.

It took 8 days from when they were found for them to release the audio and notify the public that Libby videoed him.

Feb 15th, 2017 the photo was released 7PM - ISP wants to identify this man from Delphi trail

Feb 19th, 2017 police call him a suspect 12:30PM Police: Man in photos now 'main suspect' in 2 girls' deaths - WISH-TV | Indianapolis News | Indiana Weather | Indiana Traffic

Feb 22, 2017 press conference 10AM where LE released the audio and identified Libby as a 'hero.'

“To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior is about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”
ISP: Liberty German is a hero

JMO

Excellent timeline of events. And just to add, sketch #1 wasn’t released until five months later, July/17.

UPDATE: Witness aided in sketch of suspect in Indiana teens' deaths
“The sketch is the first new information released by authorities about the suspect since late February, when they distributed two grainy images of a man walking along an old railroad bridge the girls had visited while hiking. They also released audio of a male saying "down the hill."

 

[sunshineray]

This short comment has prompted me to share that at one point in time, I had believed that he was in full control of them the entire time from the south end of the bridge right up until they reached the crime scene.

Now....I am not so sure.

One possibility that has occurred to me is if he parked on the road that turns into a private driveway (he was watching the bridge from there looking for a victim) and when he saw someone start to cross, he came from down there up the hill. Maybe that is what got Libby nervous in the first place, wondering what he was doing. I have tried to experiment with maps and photos and ariel views with this scenario and I think it is possible. Perhaps @Falling Down or @Awsi Dooger would share their thoughts on this part.

He could have crossed the bridge to make sure nobody was on the other side watching/waiting for the girls (parents, etc.) and Libby started filming him on his way back from the north side.

I realize it does over-complicate the scenario by suggesting him crossing from south to north and back.....but there is no evidence to suggest that she started the video from the moment we as the public, see it.

It also makes sense to me that he needed to ensure that there was nobody else in proximity of the bridge waiting for the girls at the north end in order to pull off what he had planned. Maybe he originally thought it was a lone female crossing and didn't realize until he got to the south end of the bridge that there was two females, but by then there was no turning back for him.

Perhaps LE is keeping this info from the public to weed out false confessions and that's why they say the re-enactments are wrong. She could have been videoing him for several minutes as he started back on his return south from the north side, but since it is so pixelated, it doesn't help their case to show this part as well. I do think that the phone went into her pocket immediately as we see the video stop.

The only other audio we know about is (from Anna's Renner interview) Libby saying, (paraphrased) 'the trail ends here, we can't go any further.' Perhaps the girls were discussing a way for them to get away from him by the time he got back from the north side and then he got to them too quickly before they could make that decision?

It's where Libby's shoe was found that makes me keep on wondering if the girls were running away from him after 'down the hill' and they crossed the creek during the abduction attempt. This has been discussed here many times.

If his car was right 'down the hill' it would be easy for him to pull a gun out and get them down there into the trunk in moments and maybe he didn't anticipate that they would try to run away once they got to the bottom.

In this scenario, his car also would have been left parked unattended somewhere on the road for (up to an hour?), leaving it visible for others to see (maybe he got lucky?) and maybe he would have succeeded with the abduction if he hadn't crossed the bridge at all.

A year ago I thought we were only weeks away from an arrest and I was wrong.

Without this audio and video, I really have to wonder what type of info (if any) would LE have released to the public in order to gain assistance with tips?

I am so glad that this maniac was stupid enough to underestimate the intuitions of 13 and 14 year old girls.

I still believe that LE is continuing to gather enough admissible evidence against a specific man and that they will not make an arrest until they are 1000% sure that he will be convicted.

No second chances, no room for any errors here.

JMO (and my apologies for the length of this post!)

BBM
I still believe that LE is continuing to gather enough admissible evidence against a specific man and that they will not make an arrest until they are 1000% sure that he will be convicted.
In my moments of great hope this is what I believe. I pray it is so and the day of reckoning will happen this year. Great post!

 

[California Sunset]

ISP 1st Sgt Holeman stated in one interview, that in his opinion, the killer did not know he was being recorded on Libby's phone. Why he believes that is not know because he does not elaborate. But if that is true it could also explain why the killer did not take the phone or destroy it.

Could he have not known Libby had a phone?

 

[mom2chloe]

@Falling Down and @Awsi Dooger given the fact that you’ve both visited the area and are somewhat familiar with the terrain etc., I’m interested to know what your thoughts are regarding the possibility of BG being a DNR employee?
also thoughts on if BG was taking a toilet break in the woods leading to the discovery of potential victims on the bridge?
TIA!