Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[sunshineray]

Theorizing because it seems to be an open question with local LE...if there were two killers involved, what would be your guess. Two related males, two unrelated males, a partnership male and female? I would tend to think two very close males, probably related.


"The two contrasting sketches led some to wonder if there was more than one person involved in the killings.

“We’re not sure about that,” Leazenby said Thursday when asked whether two people were involved in the crime.

Leazenby advised people to focus on the video of "bridge guy" and new sketch — not the original drawing."

'I'm absolutely hopeful.' On anniversary of Delphi killings, community has faith next tip leads to justice

 

[Andreee]

Sketches are more like a BOLO type thing, its another tool to help solve a crime, or identify a potential suspect.

In this case, we have video of "Someone" who may or may not be involved in the girls murder. but other than what hes possibly wearing on his body , his face is totally skewed.

The initial sketch and the secondary sketch look nothing alike , I think in this case, it hurts the investigation because, which one are we looking for ?

IMO they released, info WAY too slowly, they took too long to let info out there, they shouldve released that video as son as they had it, audio the same, they should reveal the manner of death as well that may spark someones memory as to what may have happpened

Small things can be kept out of the public light , but all we know is this

2 girls went into the woods, both were murdered, a video and audio recording of a man were on Libbys phone

Thats IT!

I will say this again, SOMEONE out there knows who did this they are just refusing to say anythig or theyre not putting 2 and 2 together because so little is known about the murders.

If they released lets say manner of death that may helpsomeone remember something "oh yeah I saw my neighbor with blood on his clothes but he said he hit a deer" kinda thing

I know you have to weed stuff out but the more you give the public to think about the more helpful it is

 

[Andreee]

Sketches are more like a BOLO type thing, its another tool to help solve a crime, or identify a potential suspect.

In this case, we have video of "Someone" who may or may not be involved in the girls murder. but other than what hes possibly wearing on his body , his face is totally skewed.

The initial sketch and the secondary sketch look nothing alike , I think in this case, it hurts the investigation because, which one are we looking for ?

IMO they released, info WAY too slowly, they took too long to let info out there, they shouldve released that video as son as they had it, audio the same, they should reveal the manner of death as well that may spark someones memory as to what may have happpened

Small things can be kept out of the public light , but all we know is this

2 girls went into the woods, both were murdered, a video and audio recording of a man were on Libbys phone

Thats IT!

I will say this again, SOMEONE out there knows who did this they are just refusing to say anythig or theyre not putting 2 and 2 together because so little is known about the murders.

If they released lets say manner of death that may helpsomeone remember something "oh yeah I saw my neighbor with blood on his clothes but he said he hit a deer" kinda thing

I know you have to weed stuff out but the more you give the public to think about the more helpful it is

I agree completely! I think more info. and sooner rather than later should have been released to the public! And this business of releasing the second photo has really confused people, and sometimes I forget which photo is the person they are seeking even now when I haven't followed the case for awhile. It really blew people's minds!

 

[Falling Down]

Did I miss the discussion on this? It seems very specific to include.

“If you weren’t from the area, you wouldn’t know (the trails) were here,” German says, turning away from the trail. “It’s hard for me to imagine that someone I’ve grown up with, someone who grew up in the same place I’ve grown up in, could do something like that.”

Kelsi remembers seeing a dark SUV, its rear windshield covered in decals, parked near the entrance where she dropped off the girls. She didn’t pay attention to whether any people were around, something she regrets daily.

A new path

Bump

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Theorizing because it seems to be an open question with local LE...if there were two killers involved, what would be your guess. Two related males, two unrelated males, a partnership male and female? I would tend to think two very close males, probably related.


"The two contrasting sketches led some to wonder if there was more than one person involved in the killings.

“We’re not sure about that,” Leazenby said Thursday when asked whether two people were involved in the crime.

Leazenby advised people to focus on the video of "bridge guy" and new sketch — not the original drawing."

'I'm absolutely hopeful.' On anniversary of Delphi killings, community has faith next tip leads to justice

First I thought, it's impossible, that 2 men were working together in a heinous crime.
Later on I thought, maybe 2 men, very close related/little age difference/looking quite similar - that would be possible for a certain reason.
Now I'm thinking, it might be, 2 male friends participated in the crime for whatever reasons. On the other hand: if one of both was known in the Delphi area better than his accomplice (=sketch #2), how did he also manage, that nobody recognized him?
Question to myself: Has the second perp to look like sketch #1 (OBG) or not?

 

[infarmgurl]

I just tried it that way and it did work, thanks.

Derrick has been described as "obese". He covered a lot of ground in a relatively short time for an "obese" guy.
Becky has said Cody rode from their home to the trails with her. Other times she has said Cody drove his own vehicle to the trails. Which is true?

 

[Kell1]

During the April 2019 press conference Supt. Carter said: To the killer, who may be in this room..

I thought that was strange. According to a news report I heard later, LE asked everyone to sign in to the press conference. Why would LE think the killer would sign in to a press conference about his crime?

I thought maybe there were two reasons for asking everyone to sign in:

1. They wanted to see if anyone would write down a fake name.
2. They wanted to examine the handwriting on the sign-in sheet. But unless the killer left a note at the crime scene they would have nothing to compare it to. Since left-handed writers tend to have a unique slant to their writing, I thought maybe they were looking for people who attended the press conference that were left-handed.

But I cannot prove any of this with any sort of logical argument.

Offenders often tend to interject themselves into investigations that's why he mentioned it, its all part of the post offensive behavior of an offender whos anxiety over being apprehended blurs their thinking so they try to gain intel into what police are doing by hanging around.

The police have most likely already interviewed him, or his name has at least come up, but theres nothing to bridge the gap between "Suspect" and "POI", thats where releasing information comes in.

The more info thats out , the more it may spark someones recall or confirm in their mind the suspicion thay have about someone.

They usually live with parents or some type of guardian figure, sometimes theres a signifigant other , but its in our nature, especially as parents, to deny feelings about those close to us particularly when it pertains to something as horrid as the stalking (rape?) and murder of 2 innocent children. In their mind though theres blanks, and theyve probably even raised suspicion about it before, they fill it in with something "normal"

"Yeah he was late getting home that day , but you know his car always has trouble" .."He said he hit a deer, he had blood on his clothes " ... they tend to deny things that are unpleasant.

Even oddball behavior like getting rid of, extensively cleaning or altering their vehicle , or something like burning their clothes, they find ways to "normalize it despite a nagging feeling by those around them that "this isnt right"

Even if all the sudden theres a huge shift in their personality, they themselves are now on the "hunt for the killer", they're up all hours of the night ,they're drinking or smoking more, they may use drugs more, they may eat more , or less, they have to keep checking on the case, they talk about it incessantly, they seem nervous when they do , when a composite is released, they all the sudden alter their appearance, they exhibit a "dutiful need" to go help, when all their life they havent ever done ANYTHING to help ANYONE but all the sudden theres this overwhelming call to duty over the murder of 2 kids that they mysteriously werent home for at the time it occurred.

Or all the sudden out of nowhere, "Mom Im taking this job in another state I gotta leave asap"... "I got in trouble with some bad people I have to leave now" is a story ive heard. The other is the old "I gotta get out of this town when things like that are happening"

Because the overwhelming majority of them arent in any type of supervised status at the time (paroll/probation etc..) They just pack up and go .

And in rare cases, whomever they are living with KNOW they did it and decide theyll help!.

Delphi isnt an area rife with murder cases, and I feel the dept there is doing the best it can with what it has, it just needs a few pieces, but I also feel that could be being held back by their decision to NOT release certain things to the public .

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Reading the article about Kelsi, like a lot of people, I was surprised that she mentioned a black SUV with decals. I certainly never heard about it before.
If, as some have suggested, it was a vehicle LE had already checked and cleared as belonging to someone known to be at the trails that day, three years out I would think Kelsi would know that, so why mention it and drag some innocent into the discussion. Also if that was true I would think LE would have quickly cleared it up to keep all us websleuthers from running with it.
I’m thinking either 1) LE has known about the SUV for three years and strangely chose this method to get it out to the public after the debacle last year with the new sketch etc not wanting more criticism or 2) Kelsi, knowing the SUV had not been cleared and feeling frustrated with LE not releasing the info, took it upon herself to do just that or 3) or LE just has stopped caring at all about what the public is talking about. They have further drawn into their own world staring at mounds of info they refuse to release.
I do think the SUV might be important and at least deserves some attention although it’s hard to know where to start with it after three years.
As always, just my thoughts.

 

[Ozoner]

Reading the article about Kelsi, like a lot of people, I was surprised that she mentioned a black SUV with decals. I certainly never heard about it before.
If, as some have suggested, it was a vehicle LE had already checked and cleared as belonging to someone known to be at the trails that day, three years out I would think Kelsi would know that, so why mention it and drag some innocent into the discussion. Also if that was true I would think LE would have quickly cleared it up to keep all us websleuthers from running with it.
I’m thinking either 1) LE has known about the SUV for three years and strangely chose this method to get it out to the public after the debacle last year with the new sketch etc not wanting more criticism or 2) Kelsi, knowing the SUV had not been cleared and feeling frustrated with LE not releasing the info, took it upon herself to do just that or 3) or LE just has stopped caring at all about what the public is talking about. They have further drawn into their own world staring at mounds of info they refuse to release.
I do think the SUV might be important and at least deserves some attention although it’s hard to know where to start with it after three years.
As always, just my thoughts.

Kelsi would not necessarily know whether the vehicle had been cleared. Police are extremely judicious about what information they'll share with victims' families during an active investigation, often sharing nothing at all.

 

[JDough]

Derrick has been described as "obese". He covered a lot of ground in a relatively short time for an "obese" guy.
Becky has said Cody rode from their home to the trails with her. Other times she has said Cody drove his own vehicle to the trails. Which is true?

Fear can produce endorphins (adrenaline is one of them) that would enable anyone to move faster. Obese or not. He got out of his car when he was unable to reach Libby on her phone, walked down the trail leading to the bridge, encountered FSG, walked to the lower trail under the bridge, and called BP. I don't believe there has been a public statement on the length of time this took? I'm also not sure why his weight matters, or how it affects the case?

I have never heard BP indicate that CP drove his own vehicle to MHB the afternoon the girls were unable to be located. Do you have an approved link available where BP said this? What I have heard (repeatedly) is that CP was pulling into the driveway at the time BP was leaving. He parked his truck in the driveway and rode with her. They drove two separate routes to the bridge in the event the girls were walking home. Again; I would be interested in reading this information from an approved source.

 

[sunshineray]

First I thought, it's impossible, that 2 men were working together in a heinous crime.
Later on I thought, maybe 2 men, very close related/little age difference/looking quite similar - that would be possible for a certain reason.
Now I'm thinking, it might be, 2 male friends participated in the crime for whatever reasons. On the other hand: if one of both was known in the Delphi area better than his accomplice (=sketch #2), how did he also manage, that nobody recognized him?
Question to myself: Has the second perp to look like sketch #1 (OBG) or not?

Well the Sheriff is saying focus on the video and the new sketch- not the original drawing AND we're not sure about how many perpetuated the murders. I guess we need to decide for ourselves why the Sheriff would be saying that but ISP Carter says singular killer could look like a combination of the two sketches.

It seems you have local LE with one opinion and state LE with a different one.

Maybe the locals think two people are involved but that's not what staties think? Could that be at the root of the sketch confusion? I don't know because it was another ISP who actually said to "disregard" the first sketch in clarification at one point.

 

[ReadySet]

bbm
I wonder if it is something KG has talked to the police about, but for investigative reasons they were not able to respond. Remember, they cannot tell the family everything. So the police may have cleared this car, but KG doesn't know that. So she's mentioning it because she's always wondered about it.

Or, it is strategic on LE's part, and they wanted KG to mention it. I think that's less likely though, I don't know if they would use KG to do something like that.

The main reason I brought up the article and what KG said is because I was so surprised that it seemed to be ignored here. We've talked about every teeny tiny detail of the case, including the bizarre (my favorite is "I see Sasquatch in the trees") and gone on and on about everything. So I was really more interested in the dynamics of the thread here and the responses, than to what KG actually said about the car. In addition to cases themselves, thread dynamics are very interesting to me.

Reading the article about Kelsi, like a lot of people, I was surprised that she mentioned a black SUV with decals. I certainly never heard about it before.
If, as some have suggested, it was a vehicle LE had already checked and cleared as belonging to someone known to be at the trails that day, three years out I would think Kelsi would know that, so why mention it and drag some innocent into the discussion. Also if that was true I would think LE would have quickly cleared it up to keep all us websleuthers from running with it.
I’m thinking either 1) LE has known about the SUV for three years and strangely chose this method to get it out to the public after the debacle last year with the new sketch etc not wanting more criticism or 2) Kelsi, knowing the SUV had not been cleared and feeling frustrated with LE not releasing the info, took it upon herself to do just that or 3) or LE just has stopped caring at all about what the public is talking about. They have further drawn into their own world staring at mounds of info they refuse to release.
I do think the SUV might be important and at least deserves some attention although it’s hard to know where to start with it after three years.
As always, just my thoughts.

 

[sunshineray]

Kelsi would not necessarily know whether the vehicle had been cleared. Police are extremely judicious about what information they'll share with victims' families during an active investigation, often sharing nothing at all.

You have to admit though it's very odd. Kelsei has told that story countless times about dropping off the girls. It's the last memory she has of Libby, the last time she spoke with her sister. Every little detail would either be ingrained in detail or lost, possibly jumbled and foggy.

If this was the first time she was recalling this dark SUV with decals all over the back window, she would be telling LE, not a reporter. That means she's chosen not to mention it all the other times she's recounted dropping Libby and Abby off. Was this by instruction or happenstance? I say the former.

 

[MistyWaters]

My understanding is no witnesses who were there that day saw the girls.

LE believe witnesses saw BG.

Yes in one of the early interviews iirc BP explained it by suggesting there just happened to be “a lag” in people out and about on that area of the trails at the time the girls were dropped off.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

bbm
I wonder if it is something KG has talked to the police about, but for investigative reasons they were not able to respond. Remember, they cannot tell the family everything. So the police may have cleared this car, but KG doesn't know that. So she's mentioning it because she's always wondered about it.

Or, it is strategic on LE's part, and they wanted KG to mention it. I think that's less likely though, I don't know if they would use KG to do something like that.

The main reason I brought up the article and what KG said is because I was so surprised that it seemed to be ignored here. We've talked about every teeny tiny detail of the case, including the bizarre (my favorite is "I see Sasquatch in the trees") and gone on and on about everything. So I was really more interested in the dynamics of the thread here and the responses, than to what KG actually said about the car. In addition to cases themselves, thread dynamics are very interesting to me.

Yes, you and I are thinking alike on this. After endless discussion about sometimes ridiculous things , why do we hear crickets about this SUV?

 

[MistyWaters]

Kelsi would not necessarily know whether the vehicle had been cleared. Police are extremely judicious about what information they'll share with victims' families during an active investigation, often sharing nothing at all.

I agree, and surely Kelsi told LE about this parked van at the very onset of the murder investigation. Collaborating the timeline of precisely who came forward and said they were here or there and when is a critical piece of a police investigation that wouldn’t be shared with Kelsi or any family members.

I notice she doesn’t mention if her father noticed (or not) the same van when he arrived at the same location to pick up the girls at 3:15pm, nor if anyone else noticed it who might’ve parked there or drove by after she dropped the girls off. There’s not enough information to know if this was a legitimate sighting of the suspects vehicle or if she’s merely describing her awareness of that fateful day.

 

[sunshineray]

I agree, and surely Kelsi told LE about this parked van at the very onset of the murder investigation. Collaborating the timeline of precisely who came forward and said they were here or there and when is a critical piece of a police investigation that wouldn’t be shared with Kelsi or any family members.

I notice she doesn’t mention if her father noticed (or not) the same van when he arrived at the same location to pick up the girls at 3:15pm, nor if anyone else noticed it who might’ve parked there or drove by after she dropped the girls off. There’s not enough information to know if this was a legitimate sighting of the suspects vehicle or if she’s merely describing her awareness of that fateful day.

Do you think it's possibly the vehicle LE was asking after in the April 2019 press conference?

 

[MistyWaters]

Do you think it's possibly the vehicle LE was asking after in the April 2019 press conference?

The location where K dropped the girls off was not the parking lot near the abandoned CPS building. I don’t have a map at hand but it was near the Gerard Nature Reserve off County Road W300N and was also closer to the High Bridge. Later reports indicate that access has since been closed.

Several of GreyHuze’s videos also illustrate the drop off location iirc.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

It is kind of interesting how people view locations psychologically. It made me wonder how police would view the same case if it happened in Grand Canyon National Park?

Let's use that specific example. If these murders were committed on a trail leading to an overlook on Grand Canyon, where would law enforcement assume the killer was from? Would they insist Williams? That would be preposterous. There would be considerably more of a widespread acceptance albeit focus on regional.

I don't understand the spotlight on Delphi. That's what I am saying. Delphi seems trivial compared to other variables in this case. Maybe it's because I have traveled extensively all my life. My parents used to take us out of school a month early once in a while so we could go on a full 3-month trip before my dad had to be back at work in August. You learn that little towns come and go in a flash. One time we happened to have car trouble in Worland, Wyoming and got stuck for several days before the necessary part could be delivered. Another time it was the same thing in a small town in Kentucky.

Heck, neither Abby nor Libby are buried within Delphi. Abby is buried in Monticello and Libby in Pittsburg. Yet our killer has to be from Delphi. It strikes me as throwing away all sense of probability and common sense.

State Road 25 is more decisive in this case than proximity to Delphi. It enables fantastic unvideotaped getaway in either direction. The poster who does the Delphi timeline on Reddit posted recently that Abby and Libby would still be alive if not for the construction of State Road 25. I absolutely agree. That was the tipping point variable that provided an aspiring killer the ideal combo of a remote lowly traveled trail smack on top of the greatest escape route of all time.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Kelsi remembers seeing a dark SUV, its rear windshield covered in decals, parked near the entrance where she dropped off the girls. She didn’t pay attention to whether any people were around, something she regrets daily

I'd love to wager a dark SUV was not there, under that description or any description. Provide a video of that drive and there will be nothing at the lot. As a gambler you learn to ignore noise. If you pay attention to noise then you are vulnerable to all the people who watch every play of every game and overreact in unison. Meanwhile nothing has changed. It's still the same team from last week.

I ignored Kelsi's 2017 insistence of 20 kids at the drop off point, and I'll ignore this SUV mention. If she comes up with something else in 2022 I'll ignore that also. That may sound harsh but it is necessary in maintaining a real world perspective. There is nobody on these trails. That's why this spot was picked in the first place. That's why this attack succeeded.

I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who listens to nutcases like Harvey Carroll on YouTube with his 70 people at or near the bridge at the time of the murders.

Kelsi is focusing on the drop off point because she doesn't want to think about the area a few hundred yards further on County Road 300. That's where she may indeed have driven past an involved vehicle. I'm not sure if Kelsi went directly to Dairy Queen or to see her boyfriend after the drop off. Either way, it makes sense she proceeded past the abandoned building, and wasn't paying any attention in the slightest.

Kelsi rightfully wasn't paying any attention in the slightest. There was greater likelihood that someone at Dairy Queen would bicker over a Blizzard than anything bad would happen to her sister Libby or friend Abby.