Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[Charlot123]

Your last sentence, never gave much thought to that. Could very well be the case, in all sorts of ways. Interesting to consider the killer thinking they got away clean only to do or say something suspicious that someone witnessed.

I think it wasn’t him they saw, but someone who was with him/waiting for him. The portrait was of the younger guy, and the pressure was on him. To make him panic. I think OBG is a seasoned person, and won’t swallow the bait.

 

[JnRyan]

I am going to re-post something that I believe is important enough to be on this thread. Obviously I didn't make it clear why it was on-topic so I'll be more explicit this time about why this matters for the Delphi murders.

The state of Virginia announced today that they finally cleared their entire backlog of untested rape kits, some of which go back many years. As a result of the testing, 851 new DNA profiles have been uploaded to national databases to be compared against current or future crimes, and 354 "hits" have been reported to jurisdictions for investigative follow-up.

Virginia eliminates huge backlog of untested rape kits

Here's why this matters for Abby and Libby:

Though we don't know whether the Delphi murders involved sexual assault, we do know from LE statements that there was DNA of some type. If it was the offender's DNA, isn't it exciting to think that there are now 851 more profiles it can be compared to? Just think of the possibilities if Indiana was to clear its backlog (it had almost 5,000 untested kits in 2018), as well as neighboring states like Ohio, Illinois, etc?

Research into murders, especially abduction murders involving children, shows that the majority of offenders do have a criminal record that is often mixed, involving sexual assaults against other children or women, other types of assault, etc. The clearing of any number of previously untested rape kits should be celebrated as an important step that brings LE closer to matching whatever DNA from the Delphi killer that they may have.

Glad you clarified that. Virginia is one recent example of going after those untested kits. I have no idea how many Indiana has, if any substantial amount. OR Kentucky or Illinois or Ohio. But if this killer is a former resident or frequent visitor, i.e., he lives elsewhere, who knows if his DNA is in one of those kits. That can be another piece of puzzle for LE.

 

[Yemelyan]

Glad you clarified that. Virginia is one recent example of going after those untested kits. I have no idea how many Indiana has, if any substantial amount. OR Kentucky or Illinois or Ohio. But if this killer is a former resident or frequent visitor, i.e., he lives elsewhere, who knows if his DNA is in one of those kits. That can be another piece of puzzle for LE.

Indiana had 4,980 untested kits with DNA that could potentially match Delphi or any number of other unsolved crimes as of 2017. Source: http://www.endthebacklog.org/

It is another piece of the puzzle for Delphi that must be eliminated IMO.

 

[TheVisual]

Glad you clarified that. Virginia is one recent example of going after those untested kits. I have no idea how many Indiana has, if any substantial amount. OR Kentucky or Illinois or Ohio. But if this killer is a former resident or frequent visitor, i.e., he lives elsewhere, who knows if his DNA is in one of those kits. That can be another piece of puzzle for LE.

I just hope that they have tested the swabs that they have done in the last 3+ years into CODIS concerning this case. They may nab him yet!

 

[TTF14]

Not if he has a job.
People attending the conference have the time to burn.
The murderer’s behavior if he is uber-local would be totally unchanged from his routine. So if he works at Libby’s and Abby’s school, expect attendance. Women in church communities, yes. Priests, yes. But a farmer or a shop owner, or an accountant, or a judge, anyone thinking of his hourly wage, would not be there. Except for, maybe, attorneys and LE themselves. And or course, the retired and the nosy.

I disagree. Anyone can get away from work for an hour. Early lunch, for example.

 

[Blueberry2720]

Can someone familiar with rape kit testing explain why states are so backlogged? Is it because the testing is tedious, time consuming, the tester needs special training, states just deem the kits low on their lists of priorities? or what? Seems you could pull together a team of testers and knock off a ton of tests in a matter of days or weeks.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I disagree. Anyone can get away from work for an hour. Early lunch, for example.

It's harder for blue collar workers to have that type of flexibility. Even if they are working in the field, most of their vehicles have GPS to track their whereabouts.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Yemelyan]

Can someone familiar with rape kit testing explain why states are so backlogged? Is it because the testing is tedious, time consuming, the tester needs special training, states just deem the kits low on their lists of priorities? or what? Seems you could pull together a team of testers and knock off a ton of tests in a matter of days or weeks.

Read this and it will all be clear to you:
“An Epidemic of Disbelief”

Anyone who wants to see movement on the Delphi case or any case that may have DNA evidence, should understand what that article summarizes with regard to how LE departments currently handle rape cases. It truly directly impacts murder cases as well because we know that some fraction of these offenders will escalate.

Frequently on these threads there's a big discussion about DNA, do they have it, is it usable. A lot of information that informs that discussion is in the above article.

 

[sunshineray]

I'm going to speak about DNA collection in general (this comment would apply to how collection was done in Abby and Libby's case as well) as well as to your question.

Sometimes the material they were working with went back many years and collection standards were not the same as they are now. This affected the number of workable profiles.

Some of the profiles were heretofore unknown duplicates of offenders with profiles already in the database. This is because serial offenders were OVER represented in the sample, one of the very important findings that also occurred in Cleveland and Detroit when they tested their backlog.

The reason that may also apply to the Delphi case is this one: if the sample is partial or mixed, it may not have enough of the specific loci that are used to catalog DNA profiles in national databases like CODIS. CODIS uses 13 loci I believe. If a sample is mixed or has been exposed to water (for example...common in outdoor crime scenes like Abby and Libby's) it may not have enough info left.

Indiana had almost double the number of untested material as Virginia. So all things being basically equal, there could be almost 2000 DNA profiles sitting in untested kits that could contain the match for BG. And this doesn't count neighboring states of course.

IMO if you want the Delphi murders solved, one of the most important things you could do is advocate your state or city to test their backlog and bring these new profiles of offenders into the system so they can be compared.

Very informative, thanks. After I read that article I emailed our State AG and enquired about my state. I sure hope they take advantage like Virginia did.

 

[sunshineray]

Can someone familiar with rape kit testing explain why states are so backlogged? Is it because the testing is tedious, time consuming, the tester needs special training, states just deem the kits low on their lists of priorities? or what? Seems you could pull together a team of testers and knock off a ton of tests in a matter of days or weeks.

Honestly and some may not like my answer or thoughts, because they are sex crimes against women, far too many of them and there's not enough women advocates in the right governmental jobs to make a big enough stink. AJMO

 

[Justice101]

One of my friends from a few years ago worked in a Crime Lab run by the State of Virginia.

He was a hand writing expert. However, he said that there was a backlog of ALL EVIDENCE submitted to these state labs. From hand writing analysis, to gun ballistics used in shootings, to rape kits, etc. I think he said they have to have a suspect in order to run a DNA profile on a rape sample for example, then someone has to handle the evidence, etc. (That is the problem.. terribly undermanned, not enough people to even handle the evidence)

By the way, he was one of the reviewers of the handwriting analysis of the ransom note for Jon Bonnet Ramsey.

 

[SMK777]

I’ve been reading here for quite some time. Excellent posting and discussion; many valuable insights from all perspectives.

When this case first happened I followed it obsessively, certain that it would be solved quickly. With the passage of time, I became discouraged and depressed and backed off, although I continued to check for updates.

I decided to post because I had a few questions. Apologies if this has been covered; it’s impossible to read everything with such copious amounts of data and sheer volume of superb posting.

In any case, they pertain to sketch #2 of NBG:

1. If as LE asserts he may be well known, powerful, connected, etc., why do no locals recognize him?
2. Why does the video clip of the man on the bridge seem to give off such a gestalt or aura of a man of 55-60, so similar to sketch #1?
3. How do we know that sketch #2 really resembles the subject? For example, this police sketch from 1974 of SK Ted Bundy, although you can tell the features were described accurately, simply looks nothing like him. (Tried to post link but not sure if it worked, sorry.

Thanks.

 

[sunshineray]

One of my friends from a few years ago worked in a Crime Lab run by the State of Virginia.

He was a hand writing expert. However, he said that there was a backlog of ALL EVIDENCE submitted to these state labs. From hand writing analysis, to gun ballistics used in shootings, to rape kits, etc. I think he said they have to have a suspect in order to run a DNA profile on a rape sample for example, then someone has to handle the evidence, etc. (That is the problem.. terribly undermanned, not enough people to even handle the evidence)

By the way, he was one of the reviewers of the handwriting analysis of the ransom note for Jon Bonnet Ramsey.

I understand that but with all the ridiculous things members of Congress vote to fund for their states you'd think the backlog of rape kits would be a priority in seeking funds.

Considering that the female populations are usually proportionately higher than men you'd think crimes against the majority would be addressed more readily, not put on the shelf and forgotten.

It would behoove the states to catalog these criminals DNA as down the road rape will most likely escalate to murder in the future. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

I’ve been reading here for quite some time. Excellent posting and discussion; many valuable insights from all perspectives.

When this case first happened I followed it obsessively, certain that it would be solved quickly. With the passage of time, I became discouraged and depressed and backed off, although I continued to check for updates.

I decided to post because I had a few questions. Apologies if this has been covered; it’s impossible to read everything with such copious amounts of data and sheer volume of superb posting.

In any case, they pertain to sketch #2 of NBG:

1. If as LE asserts he may be well known, powerful, connected, etc., why do no locals recognize him?
2. Why does the video clip of the man on the bridge seem to give off such a gestalt or aura of a man of 55-60, so similar to sketch #1?
3. How do we know that sketch #2 really resembles the subject? For example, this police sketch from 1974 of SK Ted Bundy, although you can tell the features were described accurately, simply looks nothing like him. (Tried to post link but not sure if it worked, sorry.

Thanks.

#1 Sheriff Leazenby talked of possibly threats keeping that someone in the know quiet, while ISP Carter spoke of the one person needed to tip BG possibly being too fearful to do so.
#2 I think in that brief video released that BG can look older or much younger. I think it's a toss up really. Sure wish something new and tech advanced would come out and clear those images up.
#3 I dont think we can know for sure because it all comes down to interpretation, the witnesses and the artist. I wish they had enough DNA to do the Parabon sketch, give a computer a try at it. Some of those are just eerily similar.

 

[SMK777]

#1 Sheriff Leazenby talked of possibly threats keeping that someone in the know quiet, while ISP Carter spoke of the one person needed to tip BG possibly being too fearful to do so.
#2 I think in that brief video released that BG can look older or much younger. I think it's a toss up really. Sure wish something new and tech advanced would come out and clear those images up.
#3 I dont think we can know for sure because it all comes down to interpretation, the witnesses and the artist. I wish they had enough DNA to do the Parabon sketch, give a computer a try at it. Some of those are just eerily similar.

Thanks so much.
1. True. I wondered, though, why he wouldn’t be generally known .
2. Yes, I think maybe it looks old to me because I equate it with sketch #1, and with the audio, which to me really does sound older.
3. The Parabon sketch would be wonderful, but alas......

 

[JnRyan]

I’ve been reading here for quite some time. Excellent posting and discussion; many valuable insights from all perspectives.

When this case first happened I followed it obsessively, certain that it would be solved quickly. With the passage of time, I became discouraged and depressed and backed off, although I continued to check for updates.

I decided to post because I had a few questions. Apologies if this has been covered; it’s impossible to read everything with such copious amounts of data and sheer volume of superb posting.

In any case, they pertain to sketch #2 of NBG:

1. If as LE asserts he may be well known, powerful, connected, etc., why do no locals recognize him?
2. Why does the video clip of the man on the bridge seem to give off such a gestalt or aura of a man of 55-60, so similar to sketch #1?
3. How do we know that sketch #2 really resembles the subject? For example, this police sketch from 1974 of SK Ted Bundy, although you can tell the features were described accurately, simply looks nothing like him. (Tried to post link but not sure if it worked, sorry.

Thanks.

On #3 I don't know how well that describes the killer. In the case of the 1974 sketch of Bundy, even though it wasn't accurate enough, I believe it was provided by one of his intended victims who escaped when Bundy failed to handcuff her properly. In the case of our sketch #2, no one saw the killer with the girls, murdering the girls or at the crime scene. LE had to go through those who were at the trails that day and come up with a sketch by process of elimination. IOW, LE finds out who was there and who did they see on the trails. By descriptions given LE comes up with someone who has not come forward or been recognized. In the case of Bundy the victim KNEW Bundy was intending to harm her and could focus more on his features. OTH, if you and I were told someone was murdered at a grocery store last night when only 6-10 persons were there and asked us to describe everyone we saw there I doubt if we would remember much about what they looked like or what they were wearing. That's our problem here. This guy hasn't come forward, for whatever reason, and one could very well imagine he could be an innocent person who was at the trails that day. But that is just my take on it. Good example, though.

 

[SMK777]

That's our problem here. This guy hasn't come forward, for whatever reason, and one could very well imagine he could be an innocent person who was at the trails that day.

Interesting point. So sketch #2 could possibly be an innocent who’s never come forward, but due to that has in fact become the face of the suspect. Doesn’t seem likely, though...

The man walking the bridge though in the video clip can’t be random, surely, and must be one and the same as the “down the hill” audio. Too bad that video can’t be more enhanced.

So wishing this case could be solved and justice served.

 

[MistyWaters]

2. Yes, I think maybe it looks old to me because I equate it with sketch #1, and with the audio, which to me really does sound older....

Interesting. I thought the photo on the right depicts a younger man, possibly in his 20s and so I was surprised when sketch #1 was released several months later of an older man. Early on there was discussion if the two photos were of different people dressed similarly until LE confirmed otherwise. As Libby’s video was taken from appx 70 feet away and even though we know the FBI, NASA and Disney were all involved in clarifying it as best as possible, there’s not enough pixels at that distance to yield clear facial details plus he’s looking downward. But indeed, the photo on the left does make the suspect appear older. JMO




Both images, shown below, depict the same white man wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket and a hoodie.
Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi

 

[MistyWaters]

On #3 I don't know how well that describes the killer. In the case of the 1974 sketch of Bundy, even though it wasn't accurate enough, I believe it was provided by one of his intended victims who escaped when Bundy failed to handcuff her properly. In the case of our sketch #2, no one saw the killer with the girls, murdering the girls or at the crime scene. LE had to go through those who were at the trails that day and come up with a sketch by process of elimination. IOW, LE finds out who was there and who did they see on the trails. By descriptions given LE comes up with someone who has not come forward or been recognized. In the case of Bundy the victim KNEW Bundy was intending to harm her and could focus more on his features. OTH, if you and I were told someone was murdered at a grocery store last night when only 6-10 persons were there and asked us to describe everyone we saw there I doubt if we would remember much about what they looked like or what they were wearing. That's our problem here. This guy hasn't come forward, for whatever reason, and one could very well imagine he could be an innocent person who was at the trails that day. But that is just my take on it. Good example, though.

Great points! Very few of us have photographic memories, particularly when at the time there’s no known reason to try to memorize a person’s facial features.

A bit on the topic of sketches -

“Forensic artists who have drawn their fair share of facial composites will probably confess an awkward truth about police sketches: They aren't very accurate. By one estimate, hand-drawn composites by trained artists are roughly 9 percent accurate in terms of producing a recognizable likeness to a suspect [source: Avril]. And as we mentioned previously, computer-generated composites statistically tend to be of even poorer quality than hand-drawn sketches, with around 5 percent accuracy [source: Avril]....

......Forensic artists argue that the role of police sketches isn't to construct a perfect portrait of the perpetrator. The point of police sketches is to publicize crimes, attract leading clues and get the public looking out for suspicious persons [source: Lichtman]. That's why the artists will highlight standout features -- a tattoo, scar, facial hair -- that might jump out at passersby.”
How Police Sketches Work

 

[SMK777]

Interesting. I thought the photo on the right depicts a younger man, possibly in his 20s and so I was surprised when sketch #1 was released several months later of an older man. Early on there was discussion if the two photos were of different people dressed similarly until LE confirmed otherwise. As Libby’s video was taken from appx 70 feet away and even though we know the FBI, NASA and Disney were all involved in clarifying it as best as possible, there’s not enough pixels at that distance to yield clear facial details plus he’s looking downward. But indeed, the photo on the left does make the suspect appear older. JMO


View attachment 255056

Both images, shown below, depict the same white man wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket and a hoodie.
Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi

Yes, it’s a matter of perspective. Do you think the audio sounds like an older man?