Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[SMK777]

Great points! Very few of us have photographic memories, particularly when at the time there’s no known reason to try to memorize a person’s facial features.

A bit on the topic of sketches -

“Forensic artists who have drawn their fair share of facial composites will probably confess an awkward truth about police sketches: They aren't very accurate. By one estimate, hand-drawn composites by trained artists are roughly 9 percent accurate in terms of producing a recognizable likeness to a suspect [source: Avril]. And as we mentioned previously, computer-generated composites statistically tend to be of even poorer quality than hand-drawn sketches, with around 5 percent accuracy [source: Avril]....

......Forensic artists argue that the role of police sketches isn't to construct a perfect portrait of the perpetrator. The point of police sketches is to publicize crimes, attract leading clues and get the public looking out for suspicious persons [source: Lichtman]. That's why the artists will highlight standout features -- a tattoo, scar, facial hair -- that might jump out at passersby.”
How Police Sketches Work

Interesting. So the idea is to highlight traits or distinguishing features and draw public attention. Not to render a real likeness, sight unseen. Makes sense.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, it’s a matter of perspective. Do you think the audio sounds like an older man?

It’s hard to say. I can think of family members in their 20s who have almost an identical sounding voice to their father and grandfather. But the voices of other men in their 20s haven’t yet matured. So JMO, it’s more of a genetic thing as opposed to being able to tell a man’s age from his voice, of course other than very young or old.

ETA - I think the video/photo and the audio have been extremely valuable in ruling out possible suspects, as opposed to conclusively identifying the killer.

 

[JnRyan]

Great points! Very few of us have photographic memories, particularly when at the time there’s no known reason to try to memorize a person’s facial features.

A bit on the topic of sketches -

“Forensic artists who have drawn their fair share of facial composites will probably confess an awkward truth about police sketches: They aren't very accurate. By one estimate, hand-drawn composites by trained artists are roughly 9 percent accurate in terms of producing a recognizable likeness to a suspect [source: Avril]. And as we mentioned previously, computer-generated composites statistically tend to be of even poorer quality than hand-drawn sketches, with around 5 percent accuracy [source: Avril]....

......Forensic artists argue that the role of police sketches isn't to construct a perfect portrait of the perpetrator. The point of police sketches is to publicize crimes, attract leading clues and get the public looking out for suspicious persons [source: Lichtman]. That's why the artists will highlight standout features -- a tattoo, scar, facial hair -- that might jump out at passersby.”
How Police Sketches Work

Then there is the flip side - another murder case some of us here have pointed to. Morgan Harrington was murdered a few hours to north of me in Charlottesville VA. Years later the killer's DNA matched that of a man who attempted to rape a woman in northern VA and she provided an accurate sketch. When that connection was made, LE circulated the sketch of Morgan's killer. Her killer was a local cab driver who was driving the night Morgan was killed - Jesse Matthew. His co-workers teased Matthew about how he looked so much like the sketch. But none of them called in a tip. Matthew would only be caught after he abducted and killed a UVA coed, Hannah Graham.
Murder of Morgan Dana Harrington - Wikipedia
Murder of Hannah Graham - Wikipedia

 

[MistyWaters]

Then there is the flip side - another murder case some of us here have pointed to. Morgan Harrington was murdered a few hours to north of me in Charlottesville VA. Years later the killer's DNA matched that of a man who attempted to rape a woman in northern VA and she provided an accurate sketch. When that connection was made, LE circulated the sketch of Morgan's killer. Her killer was a local cab driver who was driving the night Morgan was killed - Jesse Matthew. His co-workers teased Matthew about how he looked so much like the sketch. But none of them called in a tip. Matthew would only be caught after he abducted and killed a UVA coed, Hannah Graham.
Murder of Morgan Dana Harrington - Wikipedia
Murder of Hannah Graham - Wikipedia

Yes that’s true. Although the sketch did resemble the killer, I wouldn’t say it was bang on, not enough for people to say “without a doubt, that’s him!” I think the problem is, much like Delphi sketch #2, there are 1000s if not millions of other men who bear a similar likeness, extremely common to their respective heritage.



The disturbing timeline of Jesse Matthew’s sexual violence and murders

 

[SMK777]

It’s hard to say. I can think of family members in their 20s who have almost an identical sounding voice to their father and grandfather. But the voices of other men in their 20s haven’t yet matured. So JMO, it’s more of a genetic thing as opposed to being able to tell a man’s age from his voice, of course other than very young or old.

ETA - I think the video/photo and the audio have been extremely valuable in ruling out possible suspects, as opposed to conclusively identifying the killer.

Excellent point.

 

[Ozoner]

He has/had some major anger issues with BOTH parents.
Both parents will (From information gleaned) protect him at all costs.
Why?
AMOO-
They feel he has endured a LOT. That he has been damaged and that he is, deep down, a repentant and loving person.
OMOO JMO

So these parents are focused on his repentance? Are they involved with organized religion in any way? Is the father a minister? I ask because ministers change parishes from time to time. The son of a minister might not have grown up in Delphi and might have been something of an outsider. He could have had resentment against the community.

 

[BigTexas]

Unless LE knows who the perp is, and I have my doubts, you can't really count on the audio that much. I will explain.
I was friends with a guy who was off mentally. He was loud and boisterous at times. But when he prayed, his voice deepened and his voice sounded totally different. It is kinda like he got serious and focused and his voice changed.
I would not be surprised if the voice we are hearing is a lower voice (perp went into serious command mode). I, in fact, believe that the voice recorded is deeper than the perp's real voice. MOO only.

 

[KentuckyMama]

Glad you clarified that. Virginia is one recent example of going after those untested kits. I have no idea how many Indiana has, if any substantial amount. OR Kentucky or Illinois or Ohio. But if this killer is a former resident or frequent visitor, i.e., he lives elsewhere, who knows if his DNA is in one of those kits. That can be another piece of puzzle for LE.

Kentucky has 51. I was very happily surprised to find it at 51 rather than thousands.

 

[AllElseFailed]

Unless LE knows who the perp is, and I have my doubts, you can't really count on the audio that much. I will explain.
I was friends with a guy who was off mentally. He was loud and boisterous at times. But when he prayed, his voice deepened and his voice sounded totally different. It is kinda like he got serious and focused and his voice changed.
I would not be surprised if the voice we are hearing is a lower voice (perp went into serious command mode). I, in fact, believe that the voice recorded is deeper than the perp's real voice. MOO only.

I agree. I have a relatively deep voice for a female and my voice sounds extremely deep over the phone or on a recording. Much deeper than in person. I sound like an old man on the intercom at work. Many years of smoking hasn’t helped. He could be a young heavy smoker? Regardless, I think you’re right, it’s very difficult to distinguish age by voice alone. JMO.

 

[K.jill]

BG has managed to avoid arrest even though there is video and audio of him and other people were around in the woods that day. Seems like he got in and out that day largely unnoticed. Apparently no one saw someone leaving on a cold winter day with wet dirty clothes on. He may not have left a good DNA sample. All of this makes it seem like maybe he has special skills, was very prepared and stealthy. But I do not think that is true. He is probably below average intelligence and has no special skills.
There has to be an explanation for how he got out of there unnoticed. And, for how no one heard screams or a gunshot. It has been hinted at that Libby fought. So how is it possible that there is not very good DNA?
This case seems solvable.. Especially if it was someone local and especially if these two girls were targeted.

 

[somequestions]

On #3 I don't know how well that describes the killer. In the case of the 1974 sketch of Bundy, even though it wasn't accurate enough, I believe it was provided by one of his intended victims who escaped when Bundy failed to handcuff her properly. In the case of our sketch #2, no one saw the killer with the girls, murdering the girls or at the crime scene. LE had to go through those who were at the trails that day and come up with a sketch by process of elimination. IOW, LE finds out who was there and who did they see on the trails. By descriptions given LE comes up with someone who has not come forward or been recognized. In the case of Bundy the victim KNEW Bundy was intending to harm her and could focus more on his features. OTH, if you and I were told someone was murdered at a grocery store last night when only 6-10 persons were there and asked us to describe everyone we saw there I doubt if we would remember much about what they looked like or what they were wearing. That's our problem here. This guy hasn't come forward, for whatever reason, and one could very well imagine he could be an innocent person who was at the trails that day. But that is just my take on it. Good example, though.

My interpretation of the two sketches released in the Delphi murder case is that they are just are just guesses based on people that were not located on the trails the day of the crime. At least in the case of Bundy, the sketch of Bundy was based off an eyewitness who had an interaction. I can see some resemblance to Bundy too.

In the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, I think if they ever find the person responsible, that person will not even look close to any of the sketches released. I also think this person will probably not live anywhere close to Delphi, Indiana. I can understand why so many people think the killer is from Delphi, Indiana. The Monon High Bridge location suggests the killer is probably a local. 99% of the time I would think the killer is probably a local too. This case feels different because of how LE discusses the crime scene, like the killer left a lot of clues but just did not care because they knew they would be long gone by the time the crime scene was discovered.

Even with the sketches and Liberty German's video, it is still sort of amazing this person was not found(as of today). Let's look at the timeline:

1. February 2017- July 2017 billboards featuring a the still picture of the video from Liberty German's phone are put up around the country.

2. July 2017- Sketch #1 of an older man is released.

3. April 22, 2019- Sketch #2 of a young man in released. At the press conference LE state when referring to sketch #2 that "this is the person responsible."

So LE has tried using the Liberty German video still picture, sketch #1, and sketch #2 and still this person has not been found. There is nothing else left to try except to go over tips that have already been submitted.

 

[Charlot123]

Indiana had 4,980 untested kits with DNA that could potentially match Delphi or any number of other unsolved crimes as of 2017. Source: http://www.endthebacklog.org/

It is another piece of the puzzle for Delphi that must be eliminated IMO.

It is not even that expensive, with modern DNA technology. The bulk is huge, but it is all automatic. People who are buying kits for ethnicity testing should know - what they pay is NOT the true cost of the tests.

Can someone familiar with rape kit testing explain why states are so backlogged? Is it because the testing is tedious, time consuming, the tester needs special training, states just deem the kits low on their lists of priorities? or what? Seems you could pull together a team of testers and knock off a ton of tests in a matter of days or weeks.

Nope it is not tedious. It is all computerized. When I was into these things, you know, all genetic companies were so mysterious. Especially when it took very long to get results. And then on one forum, someone said that all these fancy-shmancy DNA companies did not do the testing themselves, but outsourced to the third party. You’d be very much surprised to hear its name, I bet you heard it many times. So I assume, it is automatic.

If they test only 13 markers on criminals’ DNA, it should be peachy-easy.

The only reason why it might be difficult is the difference in collections and storage.

 

[Charlot123]

I disagree. Anyone can get away from work for an hour. Early lunch, for example.

Yes, but only if this behavior is typical for the person in general. If he is so much a community soul that he attends all Delphi meetings.

Imagine a local physician. To spend the time he could be making money to listen to DC? Give me a break. I would not expect MS to be there, either, because evening, pizza hours. So if MS came, it would be suspicious, unless he previously would attend such assemblies on most occasions.

I think that the only way BG would be flying so low under the radar is if his behavior did not change a bit.

 

[Charlot123]

I understand that but with all the ridiculous things members of Congress vote to fund for their states you'd think the backlog of rape kits would be a priority in seeking funds.

Considering that the female populations are usually proportionately higher than men you'd think crimes against the majority would be addressed more readily, not put on the shelf and forgotten.

It would behoove the states to catalog these criminals DNA as down the road rape will most likely escalate to murder in the future. JMO

You know, maybe we should make a GO FUND me for Indiana rape kits processing? At least partially, the project would be funded. To wait the congress members to even consider it is useless. JMO.

 

[cujenn81]

I struggle for the same reason. A lot of research into these types of offenders points to the element of randomness that underlies the patterns that they do.

I often ask myself why people on these boards are constantly seeking these fantastic scenarios to explain why the crime isn't solved, or to explain what happened. I think a small portion of posters here have watched a lot of crime shows and read a lot of mystery stories and propose these things to entertain themselves. They are probably well-meaning and don't even realize that's what they are doing.

And then the majority of posters are decent people who are trying to make sense of the evil things that happen. I think it actually makes them feel better to deny the randomness. If the girls were talking to someone on social media who catfished them, or if it was a coach in a disguise, or if they were silenced for discovering a secret on the dark web, then this happened to them FOR A REASON. If it wasn't random, I can feel better because it can't happen to me or my loved ones.

Bingo.

 

[I wonder]

Do we know how much information not released to the public has been provided to the following:

The families

LE working on the case

Local LE in Delphi not working on this case

LE in Indiana who are working on the case

LE in Indiana who are not working on the case

LE from other parts of the US

The FBI who are not directly working on the case

Also, do we know whether the FBI person who was in Delphi when the girls were reported missing specialises in child abductions is working on this case (or has) and if not, do they know information not made available to the public and if they do, what is that information?

Do we know whether the searchers actually went to the bodies of Abby and Libby and consequently have information the public doesn't?

I'm asking this in relation to whether this tight control of information is limited to the public, or if it extends to anyone not directly working on the case. I realise this may not be easily answerable as it will presumably rely heavily on rumours, which I'm aware is not allowed, but hope I haven't broken the rules by asking this. I apologise if I have.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don't think that conference was by invitation, maybe the press was allocated but I anyone could attend if they wanted.

Agree. I didn't think of an invitation. But if BG would have been asked sometime later for whatever reason, whether he attended the PC or not, he would have had an excuse (business), IMO.
If he had attended the PC, I think, people would have had the chance to recognize him because of the sketch #2 - unless he was wearing a baseball cap. MOO

 

[Tiger Stripes]

Do we know how much information not released to the public has been provided to the following:

The familie s

LE working on the case

Local LE in Delphi not working on this case

LE in Indiana who are working on the case

LE in Indiana who are not working on the case

LE from other parts of the US

The FBI who are not directly working on the case

Also, do we know whether the FBI person who was in Delphi when the girls were reported missing specialises in child abductions is working on this case (or has) and if not, do they know information not made available to the public and if they do, what is that information?

Do we know whether the searchers actually went to the bodies of Abby and Libby and consequently have information the public doesn't?

I'm asking this in relation to whether this tight control of information is limited to the public, or if it extends to anyone not directly working on the case. I realise this may not be easily answerable as it will presumably rely heavily on rumours, which I'm aware is not allowed, but hope I haven't broken the rules by asking this. I apologise if I have.

Dear @I wonder,

*These* are significant (and essential) questions in this case; thank you for asking them. If we were to know even a *fraction* of the answers to these good questions, the case would be exponentially closer to being solved, with the killer's life as a free man on a permanent "pause".

I continue to pray fervently for justice for Abby and Libby, for new insight for LE as they work to solve this heinous crime, and, most of all, for nothing less than an unexpected turn of events causing the killer's identity to be revealed (something he *thinks* is impossible; he truly underestimates the power of prayer -- all JMOO, as a person of faith).

 

[stattlich1]

Agree. I didn't think of an invitation. But if BG would have been asked sometime later for whatever reason, whether he attended the PC or not, he would have had an excuse (business), IMO.
If he had attended the PC, I think, people would have had the chance to recognize him because of the sketch #2 - unless he was wearing a baseball cap. MOO

What if it is someone who, by virtue of their position, would have normally been expected to tune in?

 

[SMK777]

Unless LE knows who the perp is, and I have my doubts, you can't really count on the audio that much. I will explain.
I was friends with a guy who was off mentally. He was loud and boisterous at times. But when he prayed, his voice deepened and his voice sounded totally different. It is kinda like he got serious and focused and his voice changed.
I would not be surprised if the voice we are hearing is a lower voice (perp went into serious command mode). I, in fact, believe that the voice recorded is deeper than the perp's real voice. MOO only.

That’s quite possible.
Sorry that I have trouble keeping so much information straight, but didn’t someone from LE claim that he “knew” the voice? Of course that’s not indicative that he actually did know it belonged to an individual in question; could just be a general sense.