Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[SMK777]

In the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, I think if they ever find the person responsible, that person will not even look close to any of the sketches released. I also think this person will probably not live anywhere close to Delphi, Indiana.

I kind of get this sense as well.

 

[Justice101]

Then there is the flip side - another murder case some of us here have pointed to. Morgan Harrington was murdered a few hours to north of me in Charlottesville VA. Years later the killer's DNA matched that of a man who attempted to rape a woman in northern VA and she provided an accurate sketch. When that connection was made, LE circulated the sketch of Morgan's killer. Her killer was a local cab driver who was driving the night Morgan was killed - Jesse Matthew. His co-workers teased Matthew about how he looked so much like the sketch. But none of them called in a tip. Matthew would only be caught after he abducted and killed a UVA coed, Hannah Graham.
Murder of Morgan Dana Harrington - Wikipedia
Murder of Hannah Graham - Wikipedia

Well stated! I followed that case from the beginning with Morgan Harrington onward.

The sketch was amazingly accurate... only Jesse Matthew had grown dreadlocks because he kept getting teased by his coworkers about looking like the sketch.

 

[SMK777]

Don’t mean to veer off-topic here, but I had another question that arose from reading through many of the prior threads here.

In a previous thread someone had said that she always had an intuitive sense that these 2 young girls being up there on a rickety bridge that leads to a dead end was somehow very odd, and that most girls that age would want to go to a mall or lunch or movie (unless of course they were adventurous tomboy types, I guess?).

She got the distinct feeling that they were maybe waiting for a “boy” they had met on social media ( it’s of course a well known practice that pedophilic types often use a pic of a cute 14 year old guy on social media to lure a teen, then show up for the prearranged meeting as their 38 year old self).

Questions:

• Wouldn’t there be an online record of plans for a meeting ? Or do these disappear from SnapChat and other sites? So that even police can’t recover them?
• Wouldn’t the family have heard on the audio things like, “He was supposed to be here 10 minutes ago but there’s only that weird man over there”? Or would the families have been instructed to withhold this information so that it could be used later to weed out false confessors?
• Could this be the reason LE was so adamant about there being “no threat to the general public?
• It could also explain why so many coincidences: girls off from school, his being there at the right time, etc.

Apologies if this is old territory:
JUST GRIST FOR THE MILL.

 

[sunshineray]

Do we know how much information not released to the public has been provided to the following:

The families

LE working on the case

Local LE in Delphi not working on this case

LE in Indiana who are working on the case

LE in Indiana who are not working on the case

LE from other parts of the US

The FBI who are not directly working on the case

Also, do we know whether the FBI person who was in Delphi when the girls were reported missing specialises in child abductions is working on this case (or has) and if not, do they know information not made available to the public and if they do, what is that information?

Do we know whether the searchers actually went to the bodies of Abby and Libby and consequently have information the public doesn't?

I'm asking this in relation to whether this tight control of information is limited to the public, or if it extends to anyone not directly working on the case. I realise this may not be easily answerable as it will presumably rely heavily on rumours, which I'm aware is not allowed, but hope I haven't broken the rules by asking this. I apologise if I have.

As far as I know that some family members were given a chance to listen to the part of the audio where the girls were girl talking and a few things they said as BG approached them over the bridge. That info comes from the Renner 360 interviews which we're allowed to site here.

As far as LE goes we know that the lead investigators, local, state and FBI, would know everything there is to know. Other LE, depending on their specialties, would be told what they need to know to do their specific jobs.

Depending on how the investigation was moving along, I would think that LE would adjust how tightly that information was being disbursed. In other words if investigators felt from evidence that BG had knowledge only a professional of some kind would know I think they'd be more tight-lipped with the people they dealt with in the know. They would close ranks hopefully, if that was the case .

 

[MistyWaters]

Don’t mean to veer off-topic here, but I had another question that arose from reading through many of the prior threads here.

In a previous thread someone had said that she always had an intuitive sense that these 2 young girls being up there on a rickety bridge that leads to a dead end was somehow very odd, and that most girls that age would want to go to a mall or lunch or movie (unless of course they were adventurous tomboy types, I guess?).

She got the distinct feeling that they were maybe waiting for a “boy” they had met on social media ( it’s of course a well known practice that pedophilic types often use a pic of a cute 14 year old guy on social media to lure a teen, then show up for the prearranged meeting as their 38 year old self).

Questions:

• Wouldn’t there be an online record of plans for a meeting ? Or do these disappear from SnapChat and other sites? So that even police can’t recover them?
• Wouldn’t the family have heard on the audio things like, “He was supposed to be here 10 minutes ago but there’s only that weird man over there”? Or would the families have been instructed to withhold this information so that it could be used later to weed out false confessors?
• Could this be the reason LE was so adamant about there being “no threat to the general public?
• It could also explain why so many coincidences: girls off from school, his being there at the right time, etc.

Apologies if this is old territory:
JUST GRIST FOR THE MILL.

- According to Libby’s twitter, she also had a kik account. Apparently neither snapchat nor kik retain any sort of chat logs.
- Was Abby standing right beside Libby when she captured a glimpse of the killer via video? At what point did Libby turn on the video app of her cellphone? We can only speculate about the timeline because that information hasn’t been released. IIRC only a portion of the full audio was shared with the family.
- I’ve posted several quotes by LE from time to time but none which state they were adamant there were no threats to the general public. This statement has been made so many times IMO it falls within the category of urban myth. After the murders LE held a series of town hall meetings, self-defence courses were held, a list of safety practises was published etc which are discussed in the early threads. That’s also contrary to “no threat”.

JMO, it’s indeed possible the two became unknowingly catfished by a nefarious creep but once again that’s total speculation. While LE may have a theory, until the killer is arrested - especially if it’s that one good tip, the piece of the puzzle they’re missing - establishing any possible connection between the killer and the girls as opposed to a random killing may well be the reason no arrest has yet been made. In order for murder charges to be laid, regardless of someone’s DNA transferred onto clothing for example, it still would be necessary to somehow prove the culprit was the person responsible for committing the murders.

 

[rosesfromangels]

-
After the murders LE held a series of town hall meetings, self-defence courses were held, a list of safety practises was published etc which are discussed in the early threads. That’s also contrary to “no threat”.

Respectfully snipped for commentary response.

Yes, on one hand I'm sure Delphi LE is trying to keep the Citizenry calm. I can just imagine all men getting the side eye, especially those with big noses or who wear fanny packs. LE needs to keep people calm, and has reassured them by providing safety classes, etc.

In reality, we know that raising awareness and staying vigilant are good deterrents, but the type of miscreant who committed this horrific act likely can't be neutralized with normal countermeasures. This isn't a normal situation, clearly. None the less, safety awareness is never a bad thing.

I've really been ruminating over the fact the Perp obviously knew that homes close to the crime scene would be unoccupied during the attack, and he knew school was out that day. *He certainly was in the know* Who would know about those two residences and the timing that they would be empty?
I consider this extremely important to resolving this case.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[cujenn81]

Kik app? It is a magnet for pedophiles. And no, it doesn’t keep any information.

In the story linked, kids were sexting via Kik. Can you imagine how easy it would be for an adult to lure the child using such an app? For exploitation, or to kill.

This is how these pedophile killers find victims, and no, Kik keeps nothing.

Westfield police warn of children sexting on Kik app

This is why I say 2006 was too long ago. If there is a connection between a killer and a victim, modern apps successfully hide it.

ETA: not meaning to establish connection between any app and the girls specifically. I merely think they were modern, tech savvy girls, using the same apps as their friends. but this very factor might be working against the case now. As to who the BG was, I keep an open mind. Could be someone in their environment, or someone living in the vicinity of Delphi and stalking them, or could be a random stranger. We do need to keep our minds open. This is why I feel TV stations need to show BG, in case he is a stranger. But I assume he could be linked to them as well.

This is not accurate. LE was able to obtain information from Kik when Nicole Lovell disappeared, and it led them directly to her murderer.

Nicole Lovell murder: Was a Virginia teen lured to her death through a smartphone app?

 

[Betty P]

Then there is the flip side - another murder case some of us here have pointed to. Morgan Harrington was murdered a few hours to north of me in Charlottesville VA. Years later the killer's DNA matched that of a man who attempted to rape a woman in northern VA and she provided an accurate sketch. When that connection was made, LE circulated the sketch of Morgan's killer. Her killer was a local cab driver who was driving the night Morgan was killed - Jesse Matthew. His co-workers teased Matthew about how he looked so much like the sketch. But none of them called in a tip. Matthew would only be caught after he abducted and killed a UVA coed, Hannah Graham.
Murder of Morgan Dana Harrington - Wikipedia
Murder of Hannah Graham - Wikipedia

That's another good example of a predator who lived in the region where his victims were killed and who also had a criminal record for previous sexual attacks. I'm still thinking the same for the killer of these young ladies. LE need to look at all the rapists, stalkers, peeping toms, child molestors, etc. in a radius of up to 60 miles.

 

[MistyWaters]

Respectfully snipped for commentary response.

Yes, on one hand I'm sure Delphi LE is trying to keep the Citizenry calm. I can just imagine all men getting the side eye, especially those with big noses or who wear fanny packs. LE needs to keep people calm, and has reassured them by providing safety classes, etc.

In reality, we know that raising awareness and staying vigilant are good deterrents, but the type of miscreant who committed this horrific act likely can't be neutralized with normal countermeasures. This isn't a normal situation, clearly. None the less, safety awareness is never a bad thing.

I've really been ruminating over the fact the Perp obviously knew that homes close to the crime scene would be unoccupied during the attack, and he knew school was out that day. *He certainly was in the know* Who would know about those two residences and the timing that they would be empty?
I consider this extremely important to resolving this case.

Amateur opinion and speculation

It’s been awhile since I watched the GH video that shows the end of the bridge and the crime scene area surrounded by crime scene tape and I’m unable to find what I’m looking for at the moment. But I’m almost certain no houses are within view anywhere nearby. The landowner’s house is in the far corner of his 40 acres and at a much higher elevation than the river.

This is the raw video taken by Julie with her husband. Even though there’s no leaves in the trees, the entire area is quite bushy with no real clear sight lines in any direction. The close proximity of the deadend road/private driveway that runs under end of the bridge is very visible in this clip.

 

[SMK777]

I’ve posted several quotes by LE from time to time but none which state they were adamant there were no threats to the general public. This statement has been made so many times IMO it falls within the category of urban myth. After the murders LE held a series of town hall meetings, self-defence courses were held, a list of safety practises was published etc which are discussed in the early threads. That’s also contrary to “no threat”.

Thanks for your response.
Much appreciated.

With regard to the above though, LE did state at various press conferences that there was no threat to the community, which gave rise to many online forum theories that the girls were targeted. Here is just one example:

Asked again if residents should be fearful of a killer roaming the community or its recreational areas, Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said, "My response is no. I feel safe for this community. Whether or not folks should be alert or watchful, that's a true statement, a fair statement. But we always encourage folks to do that."

Police confirm bodies found near Delphi are missing teens, searching for suspect

Additionally, people who watched this Interview with Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said:

When asked why search was called off he explains that himself and other officials decided to discontinue search and continue early in morning again. He said that community volunteers continued searching and that LE were aware of that.

He said that Abby and Libby had gone to each others houses before and not told parents/grandparents so this was something they thought was a possibility. When asked about why he said there was no danger to the public he said he had a feeling then and still does now that this incident was isolated to the victims and not an ongoing threat to public.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is not accurate. LE was able to obtain information from Kik when Nicole Lovell disappeared, and it led them directly to her murderer.

Nicole Lovell murder: Was a Virginia teen lured to her death through a smartphone app?

True, apparently the killer was traced through an IP address. But that would’ve been difficult to impossible had the killer used a burner phone, stolen phone or obtained it using a false identity. However if something such as that was involved, from intensive cellphone tower dump investigation the originating area of the online communication possibly could be determined. That could be another reason LE suspect the killer was local but this is purely speculation.

One thing that I’ve always thought an unusual coincidence although it probably was only that, that iirc BP said Libby was having trouble with her cellphone and did a full reset that last night before the two disappeared.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks for your response.
Much appreciated.

With regard to the above though, LE did state at various press conferences that there was no threat to the community, which gave rise to many online forum theories that the girls were targeted. Here is just one example:

Asked again if residents should be fearful of a killer roaming the community or its recreational areas, Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said, "My response is no. I feel safe for this community. Whether or not folks should be alert or watchful, that's a true statement, a fair statement. But we always encourage folks to do that."

Police confirm bodies found near Delphi are missing teens, searching for suspect

Additionally, people who watched this Interview with Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said:

When asked why search was called off he explains that himself and other officials decided to discontinue search and continue early in morning again. He said that community volunteers continued searching and that LE were aware of that.

He said that Abby and Libby had gone to each others houses before and not told parents/grandparents so this was something they thought was a possibility. When asked about why he said there was no danger to the public he said he had a feeling then and still does now that this incident was isolated to the victims and not an ongoing threat to public.

It is true, in over three years there’s been no further murders of young teens so I think it’s fair to say there’s not an ongoing threat to the public. It’s the role of LE to ensure the safety of a community. If the local sheriff’s dept was to officially announce living in Delphi is dangerous because of an unsolved murder, what would be the solution aside from everyone moving away?

 

[SMK777]

It is true, in over three years there’s been no further murders of young teens so I think it’s fair to say there’s not an ongoing threat to the public. It’s the role of LE to ensure the safety of a community. If the local sheriff’s dept was to officially announce living in Delphi is dangerous because of an unsolved murder, what would be the solution aside from everyone moving away?

True.
My point was just to affirm that the assertion at press conferences and in interviews was that there was no threat to the community.
Your further point, that this was the prudent thing to say, is undoubtedly valid.

 

[cujenn81]

BG has managed to avoid arrest even though there is video and audio of him and other people were around in the woods that day. Seems like he got in and out that day largely unnoticed. Apparently no one saw someone leaving on a cold winter day with wet dirty clothes on. He may not have left a good DNA sample. All of this makes it seem like maybe he has special skills, was very prepared and stealthy. But I do not think that is true. He is probably below average intelligence and has no special skills.
There has to be an explanation for how he got out of there unnoticed. And, for how no one heard screams or a gunshot. It has been hinted at that Libby fought. So how is it possible that there is not very good DNA?
This case seems solvable.. Especially if it was someone local and especially if these two girls were targeted.

In one of the episodes discussing this case on True Crime Garage, they mention a video of some guy walking through the creek wearing blue jeans. According to the hosts of TCG, it wasn't obvious that his jeans were wet. He simply appeared to be wearing a darker denim. TCR believes BG's wet jeans would've likely gone unnoticed from anyone a short distance away.

 

[MistyWaters]

True.
My point was just to affirm that the assertion at press conferences and in interviews was that there was no threat to the community.
Your further point, that this was the prudent thing to say, is undoubtedly valid.

“I can’t say there’s not a threat to the community,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley told RTV6 at the time. "We have not caught the person yet. Is the person still in the community? We don’t know.”
Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi

 

[SMK777]

“I can’t say there’s not a threat to the community,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley told RTV6 at the time. "We have not caught the person yet. Is the person still in the community? We don’t know.”
Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi

Ok, so this was a statement which differed from the prior ones. Thanks.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ok, so this was a statement which differed from the prior ones. Thanks.

It makes the most sense to me. The only time I’m aware of for LE to alert a community to danger is during a very specific active situation such as a shooter at large, a confrontation between LE and a perp, some known incident involving potential for violence etc. Then LE asks the public to take a specific action such as avoiding a certain area, evacuating or staying inside of their homes until the threat is contained or passed. If there’s no imminent danger, then the community is considered safe for lack of a better term.

 

[Yemelyan]

Don’t mean to veer off-topic here, but I had another question that arose from reading through many of the prior threads here.

In a previous thread someone had said that she always had an intuitive sense that these 2 young girls being up there on a rickety bridge that leads to a dead end was somehow very odd, and that most girls that age would want to go to a mall or lunch or movie (unless of course they were adventurous tomboy types, I guess?).

She got the distinct feeling that they were maybe waiting for a “boy” they had met on social media ( it’s of course a well known practice that pedophilic types often use a pic of a cute 14 year old guy on social media to lure a teen, then show up for the prearranged meeting as their 38 year old self).

Questions:

• Wouldn’t there be an online record of plans for a meeting ? Or do these disappear from SnapChat and other sites? So that even police can’t recover them?
• Wouldn’t the family have heard on the audio things like, “He was supposed to be here 10 minutes ago but there’s only that weird man over there”? Or would the families have been instructed to withhold this information so that it could be used later to weed out false confessors?
• Could this be the reason LE was so adamant about there being “no threat to the general public?
• It could also explain why so many coincidences: girls off from school, his being there at the right time, etc.

Apologies if this is old territory:
JUST GRIST FOR THE MILL.

I bolded part of your post above. If you haven't listened to the podcast Scene of the Crime, which is about the Delphi murders, I recommend it because it has extensive interviews with the families and what you wrote in bold is addressed by Becky Patty. According to her, Delphi is so small that kids can't just go to a movie, shopping, etc. You have to go to a larger nearby city for that. Her quote was "the trails are what kids do." In addition, the families describe the girls as being exactly the adventurous, athletic type.

I got the impression that with Libby additionally being interested in photography, they went there partially just for the photo op. If you are familiar with the youth cultural trend "VSCO girls," they would have been on the cusp of that and wanting to document their life experiences in unique and artistic ways. IMO

 

[stattlich1]

Anybody else ever consider that "guys" is not used in the same sentence as the words "down the hill" in the recording, or that "down the hill" was NOT a directive?

 

[SMK777]

I bolded part of your post above. If you haven't listened to the podcast Scene of the Crime, which is about the Delphi murders, I recommend it because it has extensive interviews with the families and what you wrote in bold is addressed by Becky Patty. According to her, Delphi is so small that kids can't just go to a movie, shopping, etc. You have to go to a larger nearby city for that. Her quote was "the trails are what kids do." In addition, the families describe the girls as being exactly the adventurous, athletic type.

I got the impression that with Libby additionally being interested in photography, they went there partially just for the photo op. If you are familiar with the youth cultural trend "VSCO girls," they would have been on the cusp of that and wanting to document their life experiences in unique and artistic ways. IMO

Thanks, will give it a listen......yes, this is all very clarifying.