Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

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<modsnip>

In two days, it will be eight years since the Evansdale murders of Lyric and Elizabeth took place at Seven *Bridges* Park. I hadn't looked at this case in a long time, but did so today. The similarities between the Evansdale case and the Monon High *Bridge* murders of Libby & Abby can not be ignored.

The children went out approx the same time of day
The incidences occurred on the 13th of the month
The destination had a *bridge*
Both from small towns under population of 5K
In the same age group, and *they look alot alike....they really do*
And....there are many other similarities many of you have posted previously

But here's the clincher for me. Meat packing. If you look at Evansdale, it is a HUB for meat packing, with a prominent truck route running between Evansdale and Delphi. We know, of course, there is a meat packing plant in Delphi.

There is just *way too much going on here between these two cases to ignore*. Way too much...

13. Bridges. Two sets of two girls. Meat packing. Truck route.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Very interesting to think about. My biggest issue is that you said “in the same age group”. As a mother of 3 daughters, I feel that 8 &10 and 13 & 14 are WAY different age groups. Lots of changes in that time, including puberty. JMO.
 
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<modsnip>

In two days, it will be eight years since the Evansdale murders of Lyric and Elizabeth took place at Seven *Bridges* Park. I hadn't looked at this case in a long time, but did so today. The similarities between the Evansdale case and the Monon High *Bridge* murders of Libby & Abby can not be ignored.

The children went out approx the same time of day
The incidences occurred on the 13th of the month
The destination had a *bridge*
Both from small towns under population of 5K
In the same age group, and *they look alot alike....they really do*
And....there are many other similarities many of you have posted previously

But here's the clincher for me. Meat packing. If you look at Evansdale, it is a HUB for meat packing, with a prominent truck route running between Evansdale and Delphi. We know, of course, there is a meat packing plant in Delphi.

There is just *way too much going on here between these two cases to ignore*. Way too much...

13. Bridges. Two sets of two girls. Meat packing. Truck route.

Amateur opinion and speculation
Delphi LE said they didn't see a connection between the two. BUT, I've never heard them say they've really ruled out the possibility of a connection. That may be primarily due to three things. One, we have video, audio and sketch in Delphi, but no such thing in Evansdale. Second, Abigail and Liberty were found less than 24 hours after the murders. In Evansdale, Lyric and Elizabeth are not found until 5-6 months later. The condition of the bodies at that point may make it difficult to determine cause and manner of death. Even DNA, especially touch DNA, will degrade over time exposed to sunlight and summer temperatures. Third, the amount of LE resources in Evansdale I don't believe ever approached what was in Delphi. Even if they don't solve it, could Evansdale learned more and faster?

I personally believe if there is a connection, Abigail and Liberty's killer is a copycat and not the same killer. And the only very loose reason I have for that is that serial killers tend to work a particular geographical area and the two cases are too far apart. (We do have exceptions like Ted Bundy and Israel Keys.) That said I don't believe LE in Evansdale can provide enough about Lyric and Elizabeth to truthfully say one way or another if there is a direct connection. IOW, they can't rule in a connection, but they really can't rule it out.
 
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I think it’s within the Image Thread here, a poster who was very knowledgeable about photography joined the discussion. The issue of zooming in to a distant photo is the clarity is dependant on amount of camera pixels. Pixels are little boxes which create the full image but unless a photo is zoomed into, one cant notice them. IIRC Libby’s cellphone was an iphone6 and since then Apple has greatly improved the capability of their cameras. But as her video was apparently taken from a distance of about 70 feet, the image of the suspect was probably not much larger than a thumbprint within the entire view.

Just to give you an idea and I hope it’s okay to offer this link, see all the little boxes that create the photo of the eye? If somebody were to add more detail it’d become a guessing game of the editor, much like filling in the blanks. This would be the same situation if greater clarity was attempted with the photo of the suspect IMO. That’s why I’m confident, as LE stated, the photo is as best as it can be.

View attachment 255219

https://i2.wp.com/digital-photograp...uploads/2009/03/eye-resized-to-30px.jpg?ssl=1

Thank you for replying to my question and for providing the pixel information. I’ve reread the image thread so many times, I’ve almost memorized it. I am so thankful to everyone who contributed there, especially NIN. However, I can’t seem to find any msm link where it states that the FBI actually had NASA and Disney analyze the footage. I only see where people mention they were told that was done. Putting my tinfoil hat on: What if the video and photos weren’t cleaned up by these agencies? What if what we are all looking at is an amateur image analysis?

I found this the other day, new out of Duke University, very interesting.

Artificial Intelligence Makes Blurry Faces Look More Than 60 Times Sharper
Thank you for linking that article, and I find the AI capabilities fascinating. I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of image analysis and I truly think that AI or other emerging image analysis will help solve this case. MOO
 
<modsnip>

In two days, it will be eight years since the Evansdale murders of Lyric and Elizabeth took place at Seven *Bridges* Park. I hadn't looked at this case in a long time, but did so today. The similarities between the Evansdale case and the Monon High *Bridge* murders of Libby & Abby can not be ignored.

The children went out approx the same time of day
The incidences occurred on the 13th of the month
The destination had a *bridge*
Both from small towns under population of 5K
In the same age group, and *they look alot alike....they really do*
And....there are many other similarities many of you have posted previously

But here's the clincher for me. Meat packing. If you look at Evansdale, it is a HUB for meat packing, with a prominent truck route running between Evansdale and Delphi. We know, of course, there is a meat packing plant in Delphi.

There is just *way too much going on here between these two cases to ignore*. Way too much...

13. Bridges. Two sets of two girls. Meat packing. Truck route.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I agree totally. It is hard to imagine that the perpetrator in both murders (meaning all four murders) is not the same person. I find the similarities that you list to eerily match one specific person. But similarities can sometimes be just that and only that. If it was the person that comes to mind for me, it would be a slam dunk for both police departments or at least the Delphi Police Department as they found DNA at the scene. Still, wow, that hat, body shape, walk and voice. And the 13th, especially the 13th...gives me chills.
 
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<modsnip>

In two days, it will be eight years since the Evansdale murders of Lyric and Elizabeth took place at Seven *Bridges* Park. I hadn't looked at this case in a long time, but did so today. The similarities between the Evansdale case and the Monon High *Bridge* murders of Libby & Abby can not be ignored.

The children went out approx the same time of day
The incidences occurred on the 13th of the month
The destination had a *bridge*
Both from small towns under population of 5K
In the same age group, and *they look alot alike....they really do*
And....there are many other similarities many of you have posted previously

But here's the clincher for me. Meat packing. If you look at Evansdale, it is a HUB for meat packing, with a prominent truck route running between Evansdale and Delphi. We know, of course, there is a meat packing plant in Delphi.

There is just *way too much going on here between these two cases to ignore*. Way too much...

13. Bridges. Two sets of two girls. Meat packing. Truck route.

Amateur opinion and speculation
This is a great post!!
I was reading about the Evandale murders just the other day, and ALL of your points are spot on.

If BG killed poor little Lyric and Lizzie in 2012, he must have thought he was seeing their ghosts, yet grown older, in Abby and Libby. The resemblance is UNCANNY and EERIE. One a skinny, pixie-faced red head. The other, a bigger girl, but adorable with a buttony, cherub type of cuteness.
 
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Thank you for replying to my question and for providing the pixel information. I’ve reread the image thread so many times, I’ve almost memorized it. I am so thankful to everyone who contributed there, especially NIN. However, I can’t seem to find any msm link where it states that the FBI actually had NASA and Disney analyze the footage. I only see where people mention they were told that was done. Putting my tinfoil hat on: What if the video and photos weren’t cleaned up by these agencies? What if what we are all looking at is an amateur image analysis?


Thank you for linking that article, and I find the AI capabilities fascinating. I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of image analysis and I truly think that AI or other emerging image analysis will help solve this case. MOO
MOO—This is only my opinion, but I believe if NASA and Disney had not been consulted, those two entities would have clarified that information by now. Their employees might not comment to confirm that they did work on the images, but I truly believe if they had not, spokespeople from the companies would state that. Both have reputations to protect, and not clarifying misleading information in the murder of two young girls would not reflect positively on them. What would NASA or Disney have to gain by helping promote misinformation?
 
<modsnip>

In two days, it will be eight years since the Evansdale murders of Lyric and Elizabeth took place at Seven *Bridges* Park. I hadn't looked at this case in a long time, but did so today. The similarities between the Evansdale case and the Monon High *Bridge* murders of Libby & Abby can not be ignored.

The children went out approx the same time of day
The incidences occurred on the 13th of the month
The destination had a *bridge*
Both from small towns under population of 5K
In the same age group, and *they look alot alike....they really do*
And....there are many other similarities many of you have posted previously

But here's the clincher for me. Meat packing. If you look at Evansdale, it is a HUB for meat packing, with a prominent truck route running between Evansdale and Delphi. We know, of course, there is a meat packing plant in Delphi.

There is just *way too much going on here between these two cases to ignore*. Way too much...

13. Bridges. Two sets of two girls. Meat packing. Truck route.

Amateur opinion and speculation

One more item to add to your fantastic post: These were both sets of girls who were minor children under the age of 14; not older girls age 16-college aged as many killers choose.
 
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One more item to add to your fantastic post: These were both sets of girls who were minor children under the age of 14; not older girls age 16-college aged as many killers choose.
Spot on.
I am truly convinced this is the same killer, and likely associated with trucking and/or the meat packing Hub in Evansdale, and had deliveries in Delphi. Seems to have an obsession for bridges, the 13th, and of course the girls.
ETA: it would be interesting to know if the meat packing plants were open on the 13th, and all the deliveries that came in and out the day before and after.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
Spot on.
I am truly convinced this is the same killer, and likely associated with trucking and/or the meat packing Hub in Evansdale, and had deliveries in Delphi. Seems to have an obsession for bridges, the 13th, and of course the girls.
ETA: it would be interesting to know if the meat packing plants were open on the 13th, and all the deliveries that came in and out the day before and after.

Amateur opinion and speculation
Absolutely.
 
Thank you for replying to my question and for providing the pixel information. I’ve reread the image thread so many times, I’ve almost memorized it. I am so thankful to everyone who contributed there, especially NIN. However, I can’t seem to find any msm link where it states that the FBI actually had NASA and Disney analyze the footage. I only see where people mention they were told that was done. Putting my tinfoil hat on: What if the video and photos weren’t cleaned up by these agencies? What if what we are all looking at is an amateur image analysis?

I don’t have the link at hand but best as I recall it was a video interview of LE or possibly the FBI. But it’s not a rumour, it was a recorded statement by LE that I watched. There’s a lot of very informative videos from early on which were never transcribed into media reports, unfortunately. A reporter questioned why the photo couldn’t be clearer and the response was, again my recollect, the word mess was referred to regarding the state of the original image and that both NASA and Disney’s assistance had been obtained to clarify it as best as possible.

When the photo was first released, prior to the audio or video, indeed many people though only the local police dept was involved in its release and therefore were critical of the poor quality and in not seeking outside professionals.

Maybe somebody here remembers the source of the comment.

ETA - It appears there was also mention of this by Abby’s mom on Dr Phil Dec/17.
post #280
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #76
“The photo of perp is as good as it gets. NASA, Disney has tried to get better photo, per Anna, but LE says it's all they can do.”
 
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What if he had said, “Hey guys, there is a mother dog with tiny puppies over there, just down the hill.” Or, “Did one of you guys lose a dog? It looks lost, I can show you where it is...”

It could have been many things, but as an animal lover I can tell you I totally would have fallen for that as a teenager.

Or, “Hi guys, he (the guy they hoped to meet) could not wait longer, but he left a gift for you. It is a secret. Go and see what it is. Down the hill”.
 
I agree totally. It is hard to imagine that the perpetrator in both murders (meaning all four murders) is not the same person. I find the similarities that you list to eerily match one specific person. But similarities can sometimes be just that and only that. If it was the person that comes to mind for me, it would be a slam dunk for both police departments or at least the Delphi Police Department as they found DNA at the scene. Still, wow, that hat, body shape, walk and voice. And the 13th, especially the 13th...gives me chills.

Then maybe he is obsessed with the number “13”. Many people with OCD are obsessed with numbers,or symmetry, or both. “Odd numbers” are usually bad, even, good. But may be the reverse, or, there are lucky or unlucky numbers. For this man, number 13 may have special meaning. Any other murders performed on the 13th? Of whatever month? Any similarities?
 
Then maybe he is obsessed with the number “13”. Many people with OCD are obsessed with numbers,or symmetry, or both. “Odd numbers” are usually bad, even, good. But may be the reverse, or, there are lucky or unlucky numbers. For this man, number 13 may have special meaning. Any other murders performed on the 13th? Of whatever month? Any similarities?
Or it could be his work schedule: both murders occurred on the 13th, mid-month, and near the weekend (one on a Monday, the other on a Friday).
 
One more item to add to your fantastic post: These were both sets of girls who were minor children under the age of 14; not older girls age 16-college aged as many killers choose.

According to Katherine Brown, who is a professor of criminal justice and who literally wrote the manual that LE departments use to investigate child murders (she is interviewed in the Scene of the Crime podcast about the Delphi case), she says that the most common characteristics of a child abduction murder victim* is approximately 11 years old, white female from a stable family life who has been abducted by a stranger.
This doesn't mean she's looked at all incidents like this and the average of all ages is 11. It means more 11 year old were targeted than any other age. Of course, we know a lot of older teens are targeted but get classified as runaways. I don't know if her data takes that into consideration but it may.

*Because some posters did not understand what "abduction" meant in an earlier post I made, to clarify, it does NOT mean that they were taken away from the trail system and brought back sometime later. As Dr. Brown explains in the podcast and in many other places, LE considers an "abduction" to occur any time a child is coerced or controlled to go ANY amount of distance for the purpose of commission of another crime (in this case murder). When BG said "down the hill", whether he was controlling with a gun or tricking them with a ruse, it became an abduction at that point.
 
Delphi LE said they didn't see a connection between the two. BUT, I've never heard them say they've really ruled out the possibility of a connection. That may be primarily due to three things. One, we have video, audio and sketch in Delphi, but no such thing in Evansdale. Second, Abigail and Liberty were found less than 24 hours after the murders. In Evansdale, Lyric and Elizabeth are not found until 5-6 months later. The condition of the bodies at that point may make it difficult to determine cause and manner of death. Even DNA, especially touch DNA, will degrade over time exposed to sunlight and summer temperatures. Third, the amount of LE resources in Evansdale I don't believe ever approached what was in Delphi. Even if they don't solve it, could Evansdale learned more and faster?

I personally believe if there is a connection, Abigail and Liberty's killer is a copycat and not the same killer. And the only very loose reason I have for that is that serial killers tend to work a particular geographical area and the two cases are too far apart. (We do have exceptions like Ted Bundy and Israel Keys.) That said I don't believe LE in Evansdale can provide enough about Lyric and Elizabeth to truthfully say one way or another if there is a direct connection. IOW, they can't rule in a connection, but they really can't rule it out.

True, LE have never said a connection between the two cases can be ruled out. I have been re-listening to the Scene of the Crime podcast and in it Drew Collins, father of Elizabeth, is interviewed about his daughter's case and the similarities to Delphi. According to this podcast, LE DO know the cause of death for the Evansdale victims, though, as in the Delphi case, supposedly even the families have never been told what it is. Drew Collins says that he reached out to BP and MP in the early going to offer his sympathy as a parent who could relate to what they were going through and when he personally thought there might be a connection between the two cases. But, he says in the podcast, "nothing ever came of that."

Because of the long amount of time before the bodies were found in the Evansdale case, it makes it less likely that usable DNA exists (though LE has not said this for sure), so this makes it possible that there are other significant evidentiary differences between the two cases that are known to LE but not the public.

One thing that is known about serial child abduction killers from studies into their behavior is that if they use a particular ruse to abduct children in one case, they tend not to stray from that ruse in succeeding cases. And if they have a particular way that they kill their victims, they tend to stick to that method as well and not vary too much.
 
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True, LE have never said a connection between the two cases can be ruled out. I have been re-listening to the Scene of the Crime podcast and in it Drew Collins, father of Elizabeth, is interviewed about his daughter's case and the similarities to Delphi. According to this podcast, LE DO know the cause of death for the Evansdale victims, though, as in the Delphi case, supposedly even the families have never been told what it is. Drew Collins says that he reached out to BP and MP in the early going to offer his sympathy as a parent who could relate to what they were going through and when he personally thought there might be a connection between the two cases. But, he says in the podcast, "nothing ever came of that."

Because of the long amount of time before the bodies were found in the Evansdale case, it makes it less likely that usable DNA exists (though LE has not said this for sure), so this makes it possible that there are other significant evidentiary differences between the two cases that are known to LE but not the public.

One thing that is known about serial child abduction killers from studies into their behavior is that if they use a particular ruse to abduct children in one case, they tend not to stray from that ruse in succeeding cases. And if they have a particular way that they kill their victims, they tend to stick to that method as well and not vary too much.
I just pray that LE has exhaustively looked for all connections between these four families. I'm speculating there are, aside from the sad and obvious fact they have all lost their children to murder:

-Any work connections, church connections, sports leagues, criminal histories, pending or old lawsuits, petitions, labor unions, etc. I would look for any and all patterns, if even seemingly small. There is something linking these four families together....

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
I just pray that LE has exhaustively looked for all connections between these four families. I'm speculating there are, aside from the sad and obvious fact they have all lost their children to murder:

-Any work connections, church connections, sports leagues, criminal histories, pending or old lawsuits, petitions, labor unions, etc. I would look for any and all patterns, if even seemingly small. There is something linking these four families together....

Amateur opinion and speculation

If there’s any truth to this, there’s no connection.
Cops Suspect Dad in Missing Iowa Girls Case, Family Member Says


A conversation with Lyric Cook's father from behind bars
Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins went missing July 13, 2012.

About a year and a half later, Lyric’s father Dan Morrissey was sentenced to 90 years for multiple, unrelated drug charges........Now, he is spending at least thirty years at the Fort Dodge Correctional Facility in Fort Dodge, Iowa...”
 
I postulate the possibility that 'down the hill' was not a directive. We simply do not know for certain.

However, I do believe they may have been tricked in to descending that hill. Which leads me to ask, what, or who, may have been down that hill?

You see, as this case is surely not solved, to ponder alternative, outside the box, outside the norm of what might be called 'acceptable' theory, IMO, is important.

Has there ever been any absolute, definitive proof, or MSM/LE statement, that they crossed that creek that day?
 
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