Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

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And, we can assume the crime scene was not secured from the approximate time of death, being likely early/mid afternoon of the day of the murders, until such time the next day when the bodies were discovered, being approximately 20-22 hours.
 
I had forgotten those statements from ISP. That it might be obvious both were deceased I could understand, but they could have died from exposure. (I know of one acquaintance who suffered hypothermia while out extensively in high 50/low 60 degree temps, so it is possible at 40 degree temps.) Yet ISP states it was immediately known to be a homicide. I'm not a crime scene tech or LE investigator, but I wouldn't think strangulation would be immediately known. After strangulation, my thoughts conjure up all manner of what they first saw that I wouldn't care to speculate on here.

I was thinking something like bindings were left behind, it had to be something that would immediately dawn on the very first people on scene that it was not a natural death due to the elements, accidental injury etc.

I wouldn't rule out ligature strangulation being obvious at first glance.
 
I was thinking something like bindings were left behind, it had to be something that would immediately dawn on the very first people on scene that it was not a natural death due to the elements, accidental injury etc.

I wouldn't rule out ligature strangulation being obvious at first glance.

I suspect there to be a brutality to these murders that most would find shocking.
 
Thank you, @Justice101 . Very interesting. I think the future for us lies in becoming cyborgs. Questions:
1) About layering. Someone processed the loop we saw. This is how 48 frames came up. I bet there are more frames in the original video. Has it all been processed?

Evidently not! There is some reason LE has not given us the whole thing. What could it be?
 
Evidently not! There is some reason LE has not given us the whole thing. What could it be?

What do you mean by LE has not given us the whole thing? I take it you’re an expert on layering processes beyond NASA and Disney’s expertise.
 
Please ignore this post as I made multiple errors when trying to post.
 
I think your assumptions are pretty close, @pearl

You may find this a useful read:
Chapter 8: Crime Scene Management – Introduction to Criminal Investigation: Processes, Practices and Thinking

It describes how first responders transition from assessing immediate risk to people's safety/life to investigative mode. Of particular interest to those of us interested in the Delphi case would be what is called the "path of contamination," how quickly investigators determine who has potentially contaminated the scene and how they deal with it.

I would note that in the Delphi case, though we do not officially know who the very first responders on scene were, we do know from Carter's and Riley's statements that it was immediately known to be homicide "by the way they (Abby and Libby) were found." We also know from official sources that the scene was locked down until the FBI's evidence recovery team arrived to process it just a few hours later. We know that the FBI did so with assistance from the ISP crime lab, and we know that they were on scene continuously for the next 24 hours.

I don't think we can assume that many, or indeed any, Carroll County deputies or Delphi officers were inside the perimeter of the crime scene doing evidence recovery work, to address a recent speculation about a LEO committing these murders.
I am trying to reply to your last paragraph but not having a lot of success with use of replying. I agree with you. I would think that LE and crime scene investigators, autopsy personnel, etc have their DNA on file for the simple reason of process of elimination of unknown DNA at any crime scene. Crime scenes can be contaminated by LE and investigators. If they found unknown DNA, it seems to reason there would be a database containing the DNA of official personnel to check for elimination of that unknown DNA. If such a thing as a database of this type exists, the DNA of a LEO would be identified as not supposed to be within the perimeters of the crime scene. I hope this makes sense.
 
I am trying to reply to your last paragraph but not having a lot of success with use of replying. I agree with you. I would think that LE and crime scene investigators, autopsy personnel, etc have their DNA on file for the simple reason of process of elimination of unknown DNA at any crime scene. Crime scenes can be contaminated by LE and investigators. If they found unknown DNA, it seems to reason there would be a database containing the DNA of official personnel to check for elimination of that unknown DNA. If such a thing as a database of this type exists, the DNA of a LEO would be identified as not supposed to be within the perimeters of the crime scene. I hope this makes sense.

Agreed and if you do take the time to read the link I sent (not just you @pearl but the general "you") you'll see that in an investigation one of the very first things they do is interview each person who may have contaminated the scene and actually walk them through exactly where they stepped, exactly what they touched. It looks like all of this would have been documented as one of the very first steps of the investigation (not an afterthought that someone can use as an excuse for their DNA being where it shouldn't be).
 
Scene of the Crime: Delphi - New Direction

The podcast first talks a bit about connections to the murders of Lyric Cook (10) and Elizabeth Collins (8) on July 13th of 2012 in Evansdale, IA. The girls were last seen riding their bikes near Myers Lake between 12:30 and 1:00 pm. Around 4pm, a firefighter discovered their bicycles and Elizabeth's purse near the lake.

December 5, 2012
The bodies of Lyric and Elizabeth were discovered by hunters in a wildlife park 20 miles away. The park is mostly used by hunters, ATV riders, and residents dumping old furniture and appliances. The bodies were found 20 yards apart and were partly obscured by brush. The bodies were badly decomposed, but the ME was able to determine the COD. That information has never been made public, and the presence of DNA (or lack thereof) in the case is unknown.

Three witnesses told LE they'd seen an older white SUV that was large and boxy (possibly a Chevy Suburban or Ford Bronco) parked on a road that meets up with the trail where the girl's bikes were located between 11:30 and 12:30 pm on July 13, 2012.

August 21, 2014
An FBI profile was released that said the following about the suspect:
- he/she is familiar with Myers Lake and the Seven Bridges wildlife area
- he/she is unlikely to be a transient
- he/she likely used quiet coercion or a ruse to abduct the girls rather than threats of violence
- he/she has likely altered their appearance since the abductions
- he/she likely cleaned, painted, or modified their vehicle after the abductions

Delphi & Evansdale Similarities
- unsolved
- dual abduction
- abduction occured midday
- abducted in a small town in the Midwest
- occurred on a weekday near the weekend (Delphi: Monday; Evansdale: Friday)
- last ween on the 13th day of the month
- bodies found in remote and wooded areas
- last seen on a walking trail
- pork processing plants are nearby

The primary difference between the Delphi & Evansdale cases is the disposal of the bodies. The girls were left where they were killed in Delphi; the girls were transported 30 miles away and hidden behind brush in the Evansdale case.

Dr. Katherine M. Brown (regarding dual abductions):
"I've only seen a couple in my entire career because child abduction murders, in and of themselves, are incredibly rare -- which is fortunate -- but the abduction of two children at one time is even, even rarer. If you're examining the rarity from an offender perspective, it really does increase their risk to abduct two children at one time."

Drew Collins (investigator in the Evansdale, IA case):
"They both happened on the 13th, they're both in like secluded areas on trails. I don't know, it just seemed too familiar. And, uh, so I actually reached out to Mike, and um, talked to them a little bit when it first happened. And, uh, but just nothing ever came of it."

LE in Delphi believe the similarities are coincidental and believe the two cases are unrelated.

February 13, 2019
A joint press conference is held at the Carroll County Courthouse with the ISP, Carroll County Sheriff's Office, the FBI, and Delphi PD.

Sgt. Kim Riley introduced Carroll County prosecutor Nick McClellan.
McClellan announced that 38,000 tips had been received and said a dozen or more were received on any given day. He asked the public to refrain from posting side-by-side images of people they speculate are involved, and encouraged others to report their tips. He said "they could have the missing piece of the puzzle". He reminded the public about the $240,000 reward and spoke about the type of information LE considers ideal.

Doug Carter addresses the killer directly:
"If you're watching, we're coming. If you're watching, we are coming."

Six days later, LE announced a press conference would be held on Monday, February 22nd at the Wabash Erie Canal Conference and Interpretive Center in Delphi at noon. The PC would be open to the public with limited seating.

February 22, 2019 Press Conference
Superintendent Doug Carter: "Information being released today is the result of literally thousands and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by Delphi, Carroll County, the Indiana State Police, and countless other agencies.

After you hear what we're going to release today, I'm going to ask for your continued support, your continued understanding, your continued empathy and compassion, um, as we move forward to find out who did this. And, we will.

We're seeking the public's help to identify the driver of a vehicle that was parked at the old CPS/DCS welfare building in the city of Delphi, that was abandoned on the east side of Delphi County Road 300, northwest to the Hoosier Heartland Highway, between the hours of noon to five on February 14, 2017. If you were parked there or know who was parked there, please contact the officers at the command post at the Delphi City Building."

The physical address of the old CPS/DCS building is 6931 West 300 North. The podcast clarifies that LE has reason to believe a car was parked there on the 13th -- not the 14th as Carter misstated. The podcast points out that this information is likely due to new information because LE had previously said (on February 2018) that they had no reason to believe the suspect was parked in a vehicle nearby because they had no information on a vehicle.

May 7, 2019
Sgt. Kim Riley clarified that LE had determined the suspect likely had a vehicle after reviewing many tips. It was also clarified that the vehicle was not parked in the empty lot at the building but parked along the roadside (which may be why it attracted the attention of a witness, if it did so).


Doug Carter (con't from the February 22nd press conference):
"We're releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind, the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is not two different people speaking. Please listen to it very, very carefully."

[Audio: "Guys... down the hill."]

"We're also releasing video recovered from Libby's phone. This video has never before been previously released. The video shows the suspect walking on the bridge. When you see the video, watch the person's mannerisms as they walk. Watch the mannerisms as he walks. Do you recognize the mannerisms as being someone you might know? Remember, he is walking on the former railroad bridge. Because of the deteriorated condition of the bridge, the suspect is not walking naturally due to the spacing between the ties."

During the course of this investigation, we have concluded the first sketch released will become secondary. As of today, the result of new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe that the sketch -- which you will see shortly -- is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls. We also believe this person is from Delphi, currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis, or works here. We believe this person is currently between the age range of 18-40 but might appear younger than his true age."

The newly released sketch depicts:
a younger man with a pointed chin, small eyes, thin lips, and bushy or even moderately curly, short hair

LE later clarified that the new sketch -- who is the man on the bridge -- is not the same person as the initial sketch. The person in the first sketch might not even exist as depicted. It might be a fabrication based on several combined and fading memories.

The new sketch is the result of a drawing session with a witness on February 17, 2017 and was drawn by ISP Master Trooper, Taylor Bryant. He uses a facial identification reference sheet that has a list of different categories from head shapes to different eyebrows and noses. The witness attempts to describe the suspect based on the categories.

April 24, 2019
Multi-agency Task Force Clarifies Points about Delphi Murder Suspect Sketches

"Authorities originally believed the initial sketch depicting an older man was the person of interest in the case. Only after the investigation matured and past information has been reassessed did the task force come to believe that the person in the new sketch is the killer."

The two sketches are not the same person; the new sketch is of someone completely different than the one in the initial sketch. The man in the old sketch is not currently a POI in the Delphi murders, and in effect, should be ignored.

The statement advised that the suspect may have changed his appearance and now look difference. LE confirmed that a number of sketches were in the case file that were created in the days after the murders.

Doug Carter (speaking with Kelsi for the podcast):
"Remember, a sketch is just a visual. It's not a photo. It's a visual of what somebody might've seen, so that's all I'll say about the sketch."

In response to Kelsi asking why the two sketches look so different:
"I can't talk a lot about that in detail, but I'll simply say the investigation has evolved and there are things we know that we can't explain. I know there was a lot of anxiety about that, and even some confusion and some blame and some criticism of us. Um, that criticism needs to come to me. Not to anybody else because I--I--I absolutely supported that change."

July 2019
The FBI altered the suspect's description on their website to 180-200 pounds
(20 pounds lighter than the original description)

Doug Carter (con't from the February 22nd press conference):
"Directly to the killer -- who may be in this room -- we believe you're hiding in plain sight. For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have. We likely have interviewed you, or someone close to you, and we know that this is about power to you. And, you want to know what we know. And, one day you will."

"A question to you--what will those closest to you think of when they find out what you brutally murdered two little girls, two children? Only a coward would do such a thing. We are confident that you've told someone what you've done, or at the very least, they know because of how different you are since the murders."

"We try so hard to understand how a person can do something like this to two children. And, I recently watched a movie called The Shack -- and there's also a book that talks so well about evil, about death, and about eternity. To the murderer, I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left, and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not--is not what they're experiencing today."

The podcast talks about how the press conference seemed designed to attract the killer, as it was announced three days in advance and was open to the public. However, child abduction expert Dr. Katherine M. Brown says that this tactic is not likely to succeed.

Doug Carter (con't from the February 22nd press conference):
"I can tell you on behalf of the sheriff, and the police chief, and so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time, that we will not stop."

April 22, 2019
PRESS RELEASE: "New Face of the Delphi Murder Suspect"
The release announced the new sketch and described it as more accurately depicting the face of the suspect from the video on Libby's phone.

The official release contradicted Carter in two minor ways--
1. The release describes the suspect as someone in their mid-20s to mid-30s; Carter described him between the ages of 18 and 40 but may appear younger
2. The release said they "We have a witness. You made mistakes. We are coming for you, and there's no place for a heartless coward like you to hid that gets his thrill from killing little girls." ; Carter never mentioned the mistakes or the witness

The caption displayed by the new sketch on the official press release:
"This is the face of the suspect that goes with the body on the video on Liberty German's phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered."

Carter (while speaking with Kelsi about the sketches):
"For people who look at that sketch, they think 'Oh my God, that person is twenty years younger than the initial one' and they view it as a photograph. That's not what a sketch is. So, while we believe that people are literally trying to help, this type of side-by-side comparison does not help."

The release of the new sketch generated 1,000 new tips within 24 hours and 2,000 within the first week.

A few weeks after the PC, Carter said he didn't know if the suspect was at the PC but 100% believes he was watching. He said information gathered over the previous 26 months indicates the suspect is watching LE's every move. He said the murderer got compliant because he didn't know LE would release the second sketch and felt comfortable that they had overlooked it. He said LE has likely spoken with the suspect already and said LE were onto something very early on.
 
Thank you CuJenn for the excellent summary and post; so helpful.
Dr. Katherine Brown's comments stand out to me the most, emphasizing the rare nature of a dual child abduction.

I have no doubt in my mind the Evansdale and Delphi cases are related.
The thing I'm trying to figure out, is how the Perp knew the homeowners in the surrounding area were not at home? There *must* be a connection those homeowners - no?

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
He said LE has likely spoken with the suspect already and said LE were onto something very early on.

This always makes me think:

1. They have their suspect but can’t pin it on him.
2. If at some point there are rumors that they’re about to close in on him, he’ll flee the country.
 
Thank you CuJenn for the excellent summary and post; so helpful.
Dr. Katherine Brown's comments stand out to me the most, emphasizing the rare nature of a dual child abduction.

I have no doubt in my mind the Evansdale and Delphi cases are related.
The thing I'm trying to figure out, is how the Perp knew the homeowners in the surrounding area were not at home? There *must* be a connection those homeowners - no?

Amateur opinion and speculation
It certainly would seem so, and I would assume that LE has taken it well into account and that there’s a reason the property owner was jailed for minor violations.
 
It certainly would seem so, and I would assume that LE has taken it well into account and that there’s a reason the property owner was jailed for minor violations.

The property within view is the one at the end of the dirt road that goes under the bridge, reportedly owned by occupants who were snowbirds, is it not? Both the crime scene and that property appear to be at about the same elevation as well.

RL’s home is east of the cemetery iirc, on the opposite corner of his 40 acres, quite a distance away for a clear sight-line, especially when the higher elevation above the treed riverbank/crime scene area is considered. There’s no other home on that north side of the river that’s close by, access from W300N.

Bodies found appx - red X
Reportedly snowbirds - green circle
RL’s home - blue circle.

upload_2020-7-25_15-16-52.jpeg

Somebody here made a good point earlier. It would be almost impossible to recognize exactly who owned that land from down by the river bank. I think that RL happened to be the landowner has no direct connection to this crime. It was the secluded end of the bridge that afforded the opportunity for the killer. JMO
 
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I was thinking something like bindings were left behind, it had to be something that would immediately dawn on the very first people on scene that it was not a natural death due to the elements, accidental injury etc.

I wouldn't rule out ligature strangulation being obvious at first glance.

I have pondered on the COD many times. Strangulation is one of the methods I have imagined.

However; when reviewing the comments DC made at the last PC (and subsequent comments made by various LEO's), I am not sure that strangulation is necessarily the only thing that happened to the girls (or if it was at all).

Comments that come to mind (there are many, many more):
The stuff of nightmares.
Those little girls are not the way you left them.
Brutal.
Horrific.
The crime scene was strange.
We immediately knew they were deceased when discovered.

IMO strangulation is just too common to fit the descriptions above. The perpetrator did something that is not commonly seen at murder crime scenes. The statement about it being immediately known they were deceased when located sticks in my mind. A person who has been strangled may give the appearance (at first glance) of someone sleeping. I don't believe this is the case. Something brutal and horrific happened to those girls, and it was visibly noticeable at the moment the search party saw them. I recall hearing in one of the podcasts (DTH, or Scene of the Crime), that there are members of the search party, or possibly investigators who have needed to seek help in processing what they saw that day. We've all heard the rumors that have floated around since 02/14/2017. But they are just that: rumors. 99% of them may be untrue. We do know that this was an especially horrific scene.

Dude- if you're reading here; why not just turn yourself in. It will be so much better for you this way. You are being hunted like an animal and you will be caught. All of your little secrets are about to be exposed. Turn yourself in, confess, and plead guilty. That way some of your secrets can remain safe. Be a man and accept responsibility for your actions.
 
I have pondered on the COD many times. Strangulation is one of the methods I have imagined.

However; when reviewing the comments DC made at the last PC (and subsequent comments made by various LEO's), I am not sure that strangulation is necessarily the only thing that happened to the girls (or if it was at all).

Comments that come to mind (there are many, many more):
The stuff of nightmares.
Those little girls are not the way you left them.
Brutal.
Horrific.
The crime scene was strange.
We immediately knew they were deceased when discovered.

IMO strangulation is just too common to fit the descriptions above. The perpetrator did something that is not commonly seen at murder crime scenes. The statement about it being immediately known they were deceased when located sticks in my mind. A person who has been strangled may give the appearance (at first glance) of someone sleeping. I don't believe this is the case. Something brutal and horrific happened to those girls, and it was visibly noticeable at the moment the search party saw them. I recall hearing in one of the podcasts (DTH, or Scene of the Crime), that there are members of the search party, or possibly investigators who have needed to seek help in processing what they saw that day. We've all heard the rumors that have floated around since 02/14/2017. But they are just that: rumors. 99% of them may be untrue. We do know that this was an especially horrific scene.

Dude- if you're reading here; why not just turn yourself in. It will be so much better for you this way. You are being hunted like an animal and you will be caught. All of your little secrets are about to be exposed. Turn yourself in, confess, and plead guilty. That way some of your secrets can remain safe. Be a man and accept responsibility for your actions.

Something just hit me. I remember what DC said, that he nearly vomited when he saw them, very imprecise but I remembered it.

And given that they were looking for a hunter/fisher.

<modsnip: unnecessary graphic speculation>

Just a thought. MOO.
 
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This always makes me think:

1. They have their suspect but can’t pin it on him.
2. If at some point there are rumors that they’re about to close in on him, he’ll flee the country.

Is he that invincible? Usually people have some connections, some vulnerability.
 
The property within view is the one at the end of the dirt road that goes under the bridge, reportedly owned by occupants who were snowbirds, is it not? Both the crime scene and that property appear to be at about the same elevation as well.

RL’s home is east of the cemetery iirc, on the opposite corner of his 40 acres, quite a distance away for a clear sight-line, especially when the higher elevation above the treed riverbank/crime scene area is considered. There’s no other home on that north side of the river that’s close by, access from W300N.

Bodies found appx - red X
Reportedly snowbirds - green circle
RL’s home - blue circle.

View attachment 256945

Somebody here made a good point earlier. It would be almost impossible to recognize exactly who owned that land from down by the river bank. I think that RL happened to be the landowner has no direct connection to this crime. It was the secluded end of the bridge that afforded the opportunity for the killer. JMO
I guess I meant they may feel he knows the suspect, and are trying to get him to talk.
 
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