Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Cin.AZ00]

Yes, I know, but my understanding is that they did not say 'creepy guy'. There's a difference in saying "Oh look, a man's coming over the bridge" and "It's that creepy guy". IMO it could have significantly altered their first reactions when they first saw him on the bridge had they thought "Oh no, it's that creepy guy ", as opposed to it 'just' being a man.

I think the speed at which he crossed the bridge may have been what changed him from being a man, to something altogether more frightening, hence Libby videoing him.

JMO.

Yep yep, fair enough - just seemed that some here might be questioning that the girls mentioned him at all and it does seem confirmed that they did

 

[I wonder]

It's always good to get us all on the same page. For me at least, it's a constant battle to ensure what I remember is correct. It's not always easy to find things I once read 2/3 years ago. As with this. I 'thought' Becky Patty said that 'creepy guy' wasn't uttered by either Libby or Abby, but I'm struggling to find it, so I'm unable to confirm this. I'll keep looking!

 

[Sillybilly]

B. When Abby made the "creepy guy" statement at the end of the bridge the girls had yet to meet this person and talk to them face to face. Only as he was approaching behind Abby did Libby start filming and recording him(not earlier), and the first face to face talk with him was when the bridge guy approached the girls at the end of the bridge since they could go no further.

<rsbm>

To clarify for the record going forward ...

It has been previously discussed that Abby did not make that specific statement (iirc it was Becky Pattie who referred to a guy being "creepy")

 

[I wonder]

<rsbm>

To clarify for the record going forward ...

It has been previously discussed that Abby did not make that specific statement (iirc it was Becky Pattie who referred to a guy being "creepy")

Thank you. I've been tearing my hair out trying to find a source. It's great to have that clarified.

 

[mom2chloe]

Respectfully snipped and BBM for focus and commentary response.
I don't think the Perp was expecting "they"/them both. I think he was expecting only one of them. I think Libby's went along to protect her friend when meeting someone from online.

*Just theorizing*

Amateur opinion and speculation

This is IMO a chilling thought because if the girls thought they would be safer together they both lost their lives. Heartbreaking.

 

[somequestions]

<rsbm>

To clarify for the record going forward ...

It has been previously discussed that Abby did not make that specific statement (iirc it was Becky Pattie who referred to a guy being "creepy")

I thought Abby said to Libby that someone was behind her without knowing the exact wording, and then Libby responded that the trail ends there(I do not know exact wording).

I must have got bad information from a new article or tv story about this case.

 

[SMK777]

I thought Abby said to Libby that someone was behind her without knowing the exact wording, and then Libby responded that the trail ends there(I do not know exact wording).

I must have got bad information from a new article or tv story about this case.

They did in fact make remarks to that effect, from everything I’ve read at least.

 

[Howcanppldosuch]

Are police incident reports published online in Indiana?

edited to add “in Indiana” by me

 

[sunshineray]

I thought Abby said to Libby that someone was behind her without knowing the exact wording, and then Libby responded that the trail ends there(I do not know exact wording).

I must have got bad information from a new article or tv story about this case.

That was in the James Renner Virtual Detective 360* interview with Anna Williams, Abby's Mom. Anna W. heard Abby said at one point something like can't we just go further? Libby answered No, that the trail ended.

He did two with Anna Williams, not sure in which one she talks about this.

 

[UnderWhelmed405]

I hope the family & friends of everyone buried in that cemetery have been analyzed.

 

[Monger]

I thought Abby said to Libby that someone was behind her without knowing the exact wording, and then Libby responded that the trail ends there(I do not know exact wording).

I must have got bad information from a new article or tv story about this case.

No you are right. It’s in episode 4 of “”scene of the crime”. The transcripts are on page 45 or 46 of the media thread (second to last page). If you watch the actual video they start to discuss the video at min 18, but at minute 27 they quote the girls starting to wonder where they can go now and Abby says something about “well...we can’t go further. the path ends here.“ Nothing about “creepy guy” though. I hope the video is allowed. Please delete if not. I swore I saw it was ok but...
Delphi: Evidence from Scene of the Crime: Delphi

 

[somequestions]

No you are right. It’s in episode 4 of “”scene of the crime”. The transcripts are on page 45 or 46 of the media thread (second to last page). If you watch the actual video they start to discuss the video at min 18, but at minute 27 they quote the girls starting to wonder where they can go now and Abby says something about “well...we can’t go further. the path ends here.“ Nothing about “creepy guy” though. I hope the video is allowed. Please delete if not. I swore I saw it was ok but...
Delphi: Evidence from Scene of the Crime: Delphi

Ok, so the actual event happened at the end of the bridge. It was just my thinking that Abby said what I thought she said that was wrong("creepy guy"). I never knew the exact wording of what was said by Abby or Libby, just that I thought that it happened.

Either way, it does not change what I think. Whatever the exact wording on the audio recording was, if either girl did not say a name I think that is strange. Even someone posing online would probably use a name, even a fake one. If neither girl asked a name or if the stranger did not say his name, I do not think the girls intended on meeting anyone that day out on the Monon High Bridge trail. But like so many things, we will not know for sure until the case is solved.

 

[Charlot123]

This is all speculation, and my own thoughts. Abby and Libby are victims of a barbaric crime. If Abby had arranged to meet someone she had been in contact with, perhaps over a period of time, how would they contact each other? Maybe there is evidence the police have and it's part of the reasoning of the police that it's someone local. Someone was messaging her directly. It could have been a burner phone, that was used very carefully and exclusively in the Delphi area, or notes could have been left somewhere for example. That could be seen as 'really romantic' and exciting by young girls.

I think Abby lived quite near the bridge. She may have been told by this 'boy' that he really wanted to see her, it was Valentines Day etc. Would she (Abby) meet him at the bridge? Alone.

Abby told Libby and they agreed, Abby was not to go alone. She'd go too. That's what girls do. We go to the loo together, we meet boys for the first time together. The imagined scenario gone bad needn't have been something as terrible as what did happen, just that the boy might be ugly, it might be a joke so Libby went for as much as anything, moral support.

What we know of the scene where the bodies were left, is that it was horrible. Lots of physical evidence, not the sort of thing you'd expect and Carter said that 'the girls are not in the same way you left them'. Does the horrible scene relate to the way the bodies were staged, or is it the entire scene?

If the bodies were the horrible bit, was the scene also intended to be a weird 'wooing' place? I'm thinking flowers, a pile of clean leaves to sit/lie on, maybe a teddy bear, pretty stones, feathers, a tidy and private area. A mix of items to reflect what a boy/man thinks a girl likes, whilst also reflecting the boy/man's view of what he thinks men do to romance women. Wine, chocolates? A red rose? Who knows?

Was the killer the person in contact with Abby, if so, what went wrong? Had Abby assured him she'd come alone? I've heard the girls may have seen him earlier, did they look at him in a way that indicated fear or giggle together, or share a pulled face? They didn't know he was whom Abby was meeting, but he knew at that point that his meticulously planned experience had gone. Now he was rejected (probably a familiar feeling to him) and he was angry. Or she stood on the bridge as arranged, but he'd already seen Libby was there too. She'd lied to him.

*Or, do we go with the two people scenario? The man and his similar looking son? If it's two people, it doesn't mean that both intended and/or were involved in the murders.

Could BG have ordered his son to leave and if the witnesses are accurate, wait for him at the abandoned building? He tells the son that he knows enough to get the death penalty. Maybe his mum isn't very well and if they both go to prison it will destroy her. If he tells, he's essentially writing his mum's death warrant. Or that if he tells, he will kill him, his mum, siblings etc. His son leaves, upset and angry, but silent.*

BG practically runs across the bridge, knuckles clenched in his pockets. It's very much a "Get (the f?) Down the Hill". YOU DO WHAT I TELL YOU.

The killer uses the prepared scene and adds some of his own extra touches reflecting his rage. More violent and intimidating touches, possibly part of a rape/abduction kit he carries around with him. Does it become chaotic in his rage? The scene becomes very confusing.

The killing may be the thrill for him, (or, if there were two people involved, the sexual intention was ruined by arguing with his son). His method of killing may be time consuming. He has to choose between a sexual element and living out his fantasies. He can't be too long, people have seen him, the local residents might see him, or perhaps he heard someone's voice and it unnerved him.

But once he's killed, he's calmer. He stages the girls, perhaps reflecting his rage with one of them, gentler (and I use the word with the knowledge that that sounds oxymoronic) with the one he had such plans with.

Or maybe he was “gentler” with the one he did not plan to kill, who accompanied her friend to the bridge, who was a witness and had to be eliminated for this very reason? His true anger was targeted at the one who, in his view, was a threat to his reputation, and maybe, career, marriage, or partnership?

I think the person is a double-faced Janus and he carefully cultivates his “public” face. Hence the anger at the threat of exposure by a teenage girl?

 

[Sillybilly]

I thought Abby said to Libby that someone was behind her without knowing the exact wording, and then Libby responded that the trail ends there(I do not know exact wording).

I must have got bad information from a new article or tv story about this case.

I was only clarifying about the use of the term "creepy guy". It was not used by the girls, it was Becky who used that term.

 

[pearl]

My thinking is the following are the only things we know about the prelude to the crime, the crime itself, and its aftermath after 3 and a half years later. 1) Abby and Libby asked to go to the trails. Permission was granted if they could get a ride home. 2)Kelsi dropped the girls off at the trail head at about 1:30 after loaning each girl a sweatshirt from her car. Libby's dad would pick them up a couple of hours later. 3)The girls crossed the Bridge. At near the end of the Bridge, Libby posts a picture of Abby on the Bridge to Snapchat. 4) The girls encounter the killer near/at the end of the Bridge. He directs them, "Guys, down the hill." Libby has managed to record him on her cell phone. 5) The girls and killer cross the creek ending up at the murder site. 6) The girls are murdered. 7) The killer leaves the murder site. 8)Libby's father arrived 3:15 -3:30 at the trails, tries to but cannot contact the girls. The killer may or may not still be at the trails. 9)Libby's father begins to search for the girls soon to be joined by many other people. 10) Search attempts are stopped at dark but some people continue. 11) Search resumes the next morning. 12) The remains of the girls are discovered near midday. 13)Parts of the trail system are cordoned off as crime scene. Many other things have been reported, rereported, removed, and debated. But, do we really know anything more?

 

[IceIce9]

Ok, so the actual event happened at the end of the bridge. It was just my thinking that Abby said what I thought she said that was wrong("creepy guy"). I never knew the exact wording of what was said by Abby or Libby, just that I thought that it happened.

Either way, it does not change what I think. Whatever the exact wording on the audio recording was, if either girl did not say a name I think that is strange. Even someone posing online would probably use a name, even a fake one. If neither girl asked a name or if the stranger did not say his name, I do not think the girls intended on meeting anyone that day out on the Monon High Bridge trail. But like so many things, we will not know for sure until the case is solved.

If they intended to meet someone, I am fairly certain it wouldn’t have been someone who looked like BG. So I don’t think they would have asked his name, they would most likely looking for a teenage boy. My speculation only.

 

[I wonder]

If they intended to meet someone, I am fairly certain it wouldn’t have been someone who looked like BG. So I don’t think they would have asked his name, they would most likely looking for a teenage boy. My speculation only.

I don't think anyone thinks that IF there was a pre-arranged meeting it would be with someone (assuming they even had a photo) who looked like the overweight, scruffy clothed, scary eyed (according to a witness), lollaping man known as BG. This is what I see coming across the bridge, it's likely they did too.

However, the younger man's image is fairly attractive and he could easily pass for a teenager. But, ultimately, those with evil intentions lie every step of the way. Nothing would have been true, not the photo, not his age, not his interests (if shared) and it goes without saying, not his intentions.

IF the girls (or one of them) had arranged to meet someone, they may never have known that their killer was the same person. But I think they'd guessed, it's as good a reason as any for why Libby started recording him closing in on them. No witness has come forward to say they saw the girls, which suggests it likely that they hadn't seen them either. If they were expecting someone, the realisation that this man hurtling towards them on the bridge was that person would have been devastating.

 

[SMK777]

If they were expecting someone, the realisation that this man hurtling towards them on the bridge was that person would have been devastating.

Yes, IF that occurred, it would had to have been terrifying.

 

[Silver_produce0]

Yes, IF that occurred, it would had to have been terrifying.

The transcript from the podcast with Mary Ellen O’Toole included some opinions on this. The question was something caused Libby to record but we are uncertain what it was. If you can disprove, or just feel there is no evidence to support, these other potential reasons as to why she’d film:

- he was overdressed and appeared to be concealing something under his jacket

- it was unusual for someone to walk all the way across the bridge when there were already people there (etiquette?)

- gut feeling / spidey senses.

Then this theory really does take a step Up the list for me... especially if you consider one of the girls having a Kik account which I believe is a fact but please correct me if not. And I believe those accounts are difficult to access or track.

 

[UnderWhelmed405]

I hope the family & friends of everyone buried in that cemetery have been analyzed.

Just so I didn't come across as a complete rando, I was just wondering if perhaps BG has some connection to the cemetery.
Meaning, I wonder if there is a family member or "friend" buried there.
This could explain his familiarity with the area.
It could explain his reason for being there on a Monday afternoon.
It could serve as an alibi for being in the area.
It could provide motive in he has some deep rage about how or why this person is there & acted out on it.
It could also be the reason why some believe he may or may not be local.

Forgive me if this has already been discussed.