Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[8771]

^^^^ This.
I think, this sk (?) basically doesn't bury. MOO

I agree with you with both of you.

Is there a message in the fact that this was not done?

I listened to many many hours of different WM3 podcasts and interviews and one of the things that really stuck with me was part of an interview with Jim Clemente (iirc) from one of those podcasts. He theorizes that those boys were known to the killer and that is the reason for the extensive concealment of the body. To paraphrase, he basically said the closer you are to a victim, the more time you want to put between you and their body being discovered.

KG has stated a few times that the bodies were visible to the naked eye from afar as one of the searchers spotted deer and inadvertently spotted the bodies nearby the location of the deer. This sure makes it sound as if they weren't concealed in any effective way.

Of course, that's not to say the perp had no intention of concealment and was just interrupted :/

I think about the WM3 case in parallel to this one often.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I think it's more likely to be just a natural occurrence. IMO

As a non-verified geologist on WS I completely agree with you. There is no doubt in my mind that that is 100% natural.

 

[Yemelyan]

I agree with you with both of you.



I listened to many many hours of different WM3 podcasts and interviews and one of the things that really stuck with me was part of an interview with Jim Clemente (iirc) from one of those podcasts. He theorizes that those boys were known to the killer and that is the reason for the extensive concealment of the body. To paraphrase, he basically said the closer you are to a victim, the more time you want to put between you and their body being discovered.

KG has stated a few times that the bodies were visible to the naked eye from afar as one of the searchers spotted deer and inadvertently spotted the bodies nearby the location of the deer. This sure makes it sound as if they weren't concealed in any effective way.

Of course, that's not to say the perp had no intention of concealment and was just interrupted :/

I think about the WM3 case in parallel to this one often.

All of this is MOO.

There is a lot of empirical evidence to support the idea that for homicide investigators, manner of body disposal is a critical element to solving murders. There is a belief that how the murderer disposes or leaves the victim's body typically reflects the offender's familiarity with the area and the nature of the relationship (or lack thereof) between offender and victim.

The FBI considers four pathways of body disposal:
1. Transported from the murder site and concealed
2. Transported from the murder site and dumped
3. Left "as is" at murder site
4. Left at murder site and concealed

The FBI defines "concealed" as buried, covered on the surface of the ground (example: by branches), or placed in water (not necessarily deliberately submerged, but placed there).

For those offenders who choose to transport the bodies of their victims away from the site where they were murdered, they are usually taking a huge risk that they may be seen or identified not just at the murder site but at the secondary site where they are moving the body. Despite the risk, there are two main, usually entwined, reasons offenders do it:

1. To delay or prevent discovery of the body
2. In order to place time and distance between themselves and the victims.

Offenders who transport and then conceal their victims after death generally perceive that LE will recognize some connection between them and their victim. Most of the time, disposal sites are outdoors and a vehicle was used to drive there. The recommendation to LE is that the investigation should focus on who would have reason to know about or frequent the area of the disposal site.

When offenders transport their victims away from the scene and then dump them in plain sight, these are generally cases where the offender feels he may be linked to the scene where he initially contacted his victim but there is otherwise no easily traceable personal relationship between the offender and the victim. The offender is unconcerned that the body may be discovered quickly, and as you may have already concluded, a lot of the victims disposed of on this pathway are sex workers, who work anonymously and among anonymous men. In cases where victims are dumped, the FBI recommends investigators focus on the last known activities of the victim to determine how the offender and victim may have come in contact.

The third pathway is when the victim is left at the murder site with no effort to conceal and no additional risk taken to move the body. The FBI says this is the most common scenario for body disposal among all cases. It's difficult to know for sure, but this could be the way Libby and Abby were left. The FBI actually commissioned a study into this pathway and the following info is associated with it:
1. The primary motivation was sexual.
2. DNA was found in less than half the cases.
3. Most victims were found fully or partially dressed.
4. Relationship between offender and victim was primarily stranger or targeted stranger (the offender had previously stalked the victim, but the victim didn't know their attacker).
5. Almost half of these victims were left in outdoor public areas.

When investigating cases where the victims are left as is at the murder site, the FBI recommends the focus of the investigators should be on how the offender identified and targeted his victims. Keys to a robust investigation would be a thorough canvass of the area to locate potential witnesses and a complete victimology.

The fourth pathway of body disposal is left at the murder site and concealed. This is actually the most rare pathway used by offenders, statistically. Not a lot is known about offenders who choose this, but practical considerations may be involved or psychological ones. For example, if an offender wants to put time and distance between himself and the victim but physically cannot move the victim, concealment at the murder site may occur. For the Delphi case, you'd want to look at this because there were two victims, one weighing around 200 pounds, and in very steep/rough terrain, so moving the bodies, even if it was desirable, may not have been possible. So if concealment occurred in the Delphi case, that would cause investigators to look more intensively at those suspect pools where the offender was known to the girls. Psychological reasons for concealment may have to do with offender signature behaviors so that should be looked at closely as well.

 

[Justice101]

As a non-verified geologist on WS I completely agree with you. There is no doubt in my mind that that is 100% natural.

Yep, as an observant person, I agree. The"Gravel Pit" looks like a sunken shelf that collapsed thousands of years ago.

 

[UnderWhelmed405]

@Yemelyan
The FBI considers four pathways of body disposal:
1. Transported from the murder site and concealed
2. Transported from the murder site and dumped
3. Left "as is" at murder site
4. Left at murder site and concealed

Yep #3

Carter said...'And I can assure you that how you LEFT (German and Williams) in that woods is not what they’re experiencing today.'

 

[Ravenmoon]

Lengthy interview with Anna Williams tonight on YouTube. Some good questions but overall I thought it was a missed opportunity because the hosts were not well prepared. They relied on live chat questions instead of having many prepared on their own.

In particular, I could not believe they didn't ask Anna about the segment of the audio that family members were able to listen to but has not been made public. Anna has already commented on that willingly at least once. Several times the topic was posed during the live chat. But the main host didn't understand the value so he ignored it, and then later on the secondary host mistook the question for merely another reference to, "Guys...down the hill, " which had already been covered.

More than anything, I salivated at the prospect of wagering under 50 people there on the day of the murders. That was the number Anna supplied, apparently from local anecdotal evidence. All I could think about was the odds get better and better. I would wager under 25 and have ultra extreme value in my favor. I realize I'm probably the only gambler here, and maybe this doesn't seem appropriate in a case like this, but as a numbers/probability guy it is impossible to set aside. It reminds me of all the dozens of times I pulled all nighters in empty sportsbooks, after seeing a bizarre number on the betting board and wondering, "Are they actually going to open up the windows and allow me to play into that price?"

It was amazing when they did. But imagine the sickening feeling when I've sat there for 6 or 8 hours and then a sharp sportsbook manager notices the same thing I did, and adjusts the number before opening. I barely had enough energy to return to my car.

I listened last night as well. I too, had some frustration with the lack of attention to questions that really could have shed light on some important issues.
There were a few things I found interesting, and one was regarding the sketches , and why they were switched last year.
I am not certain if I am allowed to discuss what was said , since the podcast is not (likely) to be considered MSM.
Also, there were remarks made by AW about BG's hair color being lighter red (something to that affect.)
That was interesting, because I always thought that the hair was darker.

EBM ~ Spelling error

AMOO JMO MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

To paraphrase, he basically said the closer you are to a victim, the more time you want to put between you and their body being discovered.

So, maybe Abby/Libby were stalked (?), but unknown victims of someone, who had the urge for a thrill-kill to let off steam. In addition, maybe he had the urge to produce crime news again in "high quality" (mysterious) with much public interest.
IMO - speculation

 

[SMK777]

Very little to no movement the last three years. In my opinion unless fresh eyes and investigators look at this investigation, we may continue to see little to no movement. By fresh eyes I mean outside investigators not affiliated w local

Agreed. Once the elections and holidays are over, this case will hit the 4 year mark.

 

[SMK777]

I still can’t imagine that it was a CS. We always read, “Libby got the worst”, or, “she gave him hard time”.

And then we read that there were people around the bridge, someone was attentive enough to see the suspect, they say.

Can you imagine two people being killed, and at least one of the girls giving someone “hard time”, and no.one.hearing.nothing?

Maybe there were no people around, or the witnesses are lying, all of them? They could have come later. One put the time on the post one hour later, maybe it was not a mistake? But still, there are dwellings around, a private drive, the house where Libby had trespassed... witnesses, anyone?

OK, maybe they all just heard something they mistook for a different kind of a noise..,but at 5-PM-ish, when the police was called, and the search started, was there no one around able to testify about the occurrences, the sounds, the sightings, cap with short bill, and all that jazz?

Even the person that allegedly saw BG coming back...look...in half an hour, dad comes, starts asking around, then other relatives emerge, there must have been some activity, some commotion, calling the girls, at least, and this person, that witness, what, disappears? Only to re-emerge as a witness several days later? What kind of a human would do it?

And if the witnesses saw BG, a scary man not looking familiar, walking around, and his description was known to the police by the evening of the 13th, how come the search was called off? An angry weirdo giving kids bad looks is ambling around, then two teenagers disappear in that area, and the police calls off the search, knowing all of this? Or vise versa, the police doesn’t know, because none of the witnesses bothers to tell them about the guy on the 13th?

And if this information was not known to the police on the 13th - why did not the witnesses report about the scary guy on the same day? At least one?

Who speaks about it only on the next day? Where was that person when the search groups were taking off?

When LE was suspecting DN or some other criminals, they were looking even in another state. But that was way postfactum. And in the beginning, the girls are gone, some evil weirdo is seen next to the bridge, some mystery car is parked at the CPS building, and the police -unaware at all?

I can not believe that someone is being brutally killed right in the area, in winter, amidst bare trees, in daytime, perfectly visible from at least some vantage points, and no one even notices it. No, no, and no. People notice movement in the corner of their eye. OK, maybe no one looked, but LE say, the whole CS was shocking, and no one saw it, till the dusk fell? What about the next morning?

Something doesn’t fit.

I can think of three versions.

1) the girls were killed somewhere else, and even this fact, three years later, LE can’t disclose.

2) or, they were killed at the CS, within that short span of time, but then, everyone being in the vicinity of the bridge from 12-5, all people living in the houses on the S side, everyone, known or unknown to girls, including all witnesses - are major suspects. And I mean, everyone... Everyone who was roaming around at daytime, or searching at night.

3) or, maybe somehow, by the evening of the 13th, it got known to everyone in Delphi that the girls were already dead. So the search was cancelled because 1) useless, 2) maybe to give someone enough time to clean and arrange?

And this is the strangest version of all, and I hope and think it is wrong. but I’d rather believe this, than the fact that by 3:30 everything was over, and no one noticed, or didn’t raise hell when it got known that the girls disappeared.

P. S. Sorry for the long-winded post. I can imagine how in real life the fathers of Delphi kids would grab their guns and be running around trying to grab this pedophile. This is the normal world. What was so different in Delphi?

You raise many important questions that I for one can’t answer.

 

[Falling Down]

Thanks. That is helpful. Sadly, I wonder if the road/berm also slightly helped obscure the view of the crime scene too.

Yes he must have picked that exact spot well beforehand.

The berm and other topographical features obscure the area where they were murdered.

Basically he picked the perfect spot to do his deeds, and the spot is merely 500 feet from the SE end of the bridge, but can't be seen from the bridge.

 

[Falling Down]

Yep, as an observant person, I agree. The"Gravel Pit" looks like a sunken shelf that collapsed thousands of years ago.

The pit is man-made.

 

[Falling Down]

Far as number of people out there walking that day, I'll bet it was less than 25 between the hours of say 8 AM and 3:00 PM or so, which explains the lack of eyewitnesses who saw and could describe BG.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Yep, as an observant person, I agree. The"Gravel Pit" looks like a sunken shelf that collapsed thousands of years ago.

I was referring to the slumped area on the creek bank that some people claimed looked like a heart, not the gravel pit.

 

[stattlich1]

BG knew that bridge, and those woods, he'd been there before.

BG was in those woods early that day. He was prepared. He may have even prepared the kill site.

BG stalked these two girls, he watched them cross that bridge, and he followed them.

BG knew there was nobody around.

BG confronted the two girls, and threatened to kill them if they made even the slightest sound.

BG forced them down that hill, across the lane, through the woods, across that creek, to the kill site, and murdered them there.

BG walked out of those woods shortly thereafter, and drove away.

LE doesn't know who BG is. OR, they do know who he is, but don't have enough definitive evidence to convict him in a court of law.

That's how I see it, this evening.

 

[SMK777]

BG knew there was nobody around.

He must have been quite familiar with the bridge area to be reasonably certain that no one was likely to be around.

 

[sunshineray]

All of this is MOO.

There is a lot of empirical evidence to support the idea that for homicide investigators, manner of body disposal is a critical element to solving murders. There is a belief that how the murderer disposes or leaves the victim's body typically reflects the offender's familiarity with the area and the nature of the relationship (or lack thereof) between offender and victim.

The FBI considers four pathways of body disposal:
1. Transported from the murder site and concealed
2. Transported from the murder site and dumped
3. Left "as is" at murder site
4. Left at murder site and concealed

The FBI defines "concealed" as buried, covered on the surface of the ground (example: by branches), or placed in water (not necessarily deliberately submerged, but placed there).

For those offenders who choose to transport the bodies of their victims away from the site where they were murdered, they are usually taking a huge risk that they may be seen or identified not just at the murder site but at the secondary site where they are moving the body. Despite the risk, there are two main, usually entwined, reasons offenders do it:

1. To delay or prevent discovery of the body
2. In order to place time and distance between themselves and the victims.

Offenders who transport and then conceal their victims after death generally perceive that LE will recognize some connection between them and their victim. Most of the time, disposal sites are outdoors and a vehicle was used to drive there. The recommendation to LE is that the investigation should focus on who would have reason to know about or frequent the area of the disposal site.

When offenders transport their victims away from the scene and then dump them in plain sight, these are generally cases where the offender feels he may be linked to the scene where he initially contacted his victim but there is otherwise no easily traceable personal relationship between the offender and the victim. The offender is unconcerned that the body may be discovered quickly, and as you may have already concluded, a lot of the victims disposed of on this pathway are sex workers, who work anonymously and among anonymous men. In cases where victims are dumped, the FBI recommends investigators focus on the last known activities of the victim to determine how the offender and victim may have come in contact.

The third pathway is when the victim is left at the murder site with no effort to conceal and no additional risk taken to move the body. The FBI says this is the most common scenario for body disposal among all cases. It's difficult to know for sure, but this could be the way Libby and Abby were left. The FBI actually commissioned a study into this pathway and the following info is associated with it:
1. The primary motivation was sexual.
2. DNA was found in less than half the cases.
3. Most victims were found fully or partially dressed.
4. Relationship between offender and victim was primarily stranger or targeted stranger (the offender had previously stalked the victim, but the victim didn't know their attacker).
5. Almost half of these victims were left in outdoor public areas.

When investigating cases where the victims are left as is at the murder site, the FBI recommends the focus of the investigators should be on how the offender identified and targeted his victims. Keys to a robust investigation would be a thorough canvass of the area to locate potential witnesses and a complete victimology.

The fourth pathway of body disposal is left at the murder site and concealed. This is actually the most rare pathway used by offenders, statistically. Not a lot is known about offenders who choose this, but practical considerations may be involved or psychological ones. For example, if an offender wants to put time and distance between himself and the victim but physically cannot move the victim, concealment at the murder site may occur. For the Delphi case, you'd want to look at this because there were two victims, one weighing around 200 pounds, and in very steep/rough terrain, so moving the bodies, even if it was desirable, may not have been possible. So if concealment occurred in the Delphi case, that would cause investigators to look more intensively at those suspect pools where the offender was known to the girls. Psychological reasons for concealment may have to do with offender signature behaviors so that should be looked at closely as well.

Very interesting info, thanks.
Do you think the "as is" senario also includes the signatures such as posing the victims?

I ask because one of the striking things to me from the April 2019 press conference was ISP Carter saying to the killer, "I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not, IS NOT, what they are experiencing today."

To me that could mean some kind of posing and/or some possible covering up or leaving of items with the bodies.

Would that be a combination of 3 & 4 then? I think the Delphi killer may have been rushed/interrupted in what he was doing by Libby's phone ringing or by voices or traipsing of others in the nearby.

 

[Yemelyan]

Very interesting info, thanks.
Do you think the "as is" senario also includes the signatures such as posing the victims?

I ask because one of the striking things to me from the April 2019 press conference was ISP Carter saying to the killer, "I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not, IS NOT, what they are experiencing today."

To me that could mean some kind of posing and/or some possible covering up or leaving of items with the bodies.

Would that be a combination of 3 & 4 then? I think the Delphi killer may have been rushed/interrupted in what he was doing by Libby's phone ringing or by voices or traipsing of others in the nearby.

IMO "as is" includes signatures, posing, etc as long as attempt at concealment is not involved.

Again, concealment was defined pretty specifically as burial (could be shallow or partial), placement in water (including deliberate submergence), or concealed on the surface (example would be covered in branches or vegetation).

 

[katydid23]

Very interesting info, thanks.
Do you think the "as is" senario also includes the signatures such as posing the victims?

I ask because one of the striking things to me from the April 2019 press conference was ISP Carter saying to the killer, "I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not, IS NOT, what they are experiencing today."

To me that could mean some kind of posing and/or some possible covering up or leaving of items with the bodies.

Would that be a combination of 3 & 4 then? I think the Delphi killer may have been rushed/interrupted in what he was doing by Libby's phone ringing or by voices or traipsing of others in the nearby.

I have always thought that the killer was still there when he heard people calling out the girls names.

The father was there pretty quickly and it wasn't too long between the time he was calling her cell, and walking around calling out their names.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes and a lot of us know who may have had a reason to create a high quality news story to prevent losing their job shortly. They have not been named as a suspect yet so we can’t discuss him. He was in the area before and after the murders but has a reason for being there which kind of shields him. That shield can and will be eliminated Soon imo.

Oh no, I for my part never thought of a journalist/reporter, whose job it is, to present a story or photos. I'm far from it!

 

[Justice101]

I have always thought that the killer was still there when he heard people calling out the girls names.

The father was there pretty quickly and it wasn't too long between the time he was calling her cell, and walking around calling out their names.

I am more of the opinion that he was leaving by the time that the father came looking for them. I can't image anyone lingering after having done this.