Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[JnRyan]

I was sort of asking what people do in Delphi to make an honest living, nothing to do with drugs. I know it is a farming community, you can see that just from Google Earth. I guess you can do most any kind of job, but I was wondering if there was something there that was seasonal, like harvest time or cutting the fields, is that something they would hire out? If BG is not from the area, is there a job that he could do there, that would make him sort of invisible and not deal with people or customers. Maybe someone local would know.

Going with my assumption/belief that this guy lived outside the county at the time of murders it opens up some options. (I tend to believe this killer learned about the trails from years ago either in middle school or high school or visited a relative - aunt/uncle, grandparent - and has been away the county for some time now.) This was a Monday so that day is a slow day in some retail trades like grocery stores so he could have had Monday off and if he lived outside the area his co-workers would not have known if he took a road trip. When I go the grocery store I'm really watching the items and the prices and not the cashier. He could have worked in landscaping/lawn maintenance services either self-employed or as an employee and that is seasonal for the most part. He could be a self-employed in plumbing, HVAC, handy man services, car repair operation, painter, brick mason, carpenter, tile layer or even a graphic artist or web designer.

Of course, he could simply be unemployed at the time. Being laid off or let go from a job could be a trigger if this killer had a fantasy about this all along.

The one job I can definitely scratch off the list is an employee in a public accounting firm. I know from my time in public accounting if you weren't in the office or at a clients on a Monday that would most definitely be noticed!

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

I believe that Monday (possibly previous Friday?) was a calendared day off for children due to some variation of a inclement weather day too. Locally speaking, this would have been made public (to all locals) at the beginning of the school year. I’d be curious if the same days/dates are a recurrent theme each year.

 

[MistyWaters]

Going with my assumption/belief that this guy lived outside the county at the time of murders it opens up some options. (I tend to believe this killer learned about the trails from years ago either in middle school or high school or visited a relative - aunt/uncle, grandparent - and has been away the county for some time now.) This was a Monday so that day is a slow day in some retail trades like grocery stores so he could have had Monday off and if he lived outside the area his co-workers would not have known if he took a road trip. When I go the grocery store I'm really watching the items and the prices and not the cashier. He could have worked in landscaping/lawn maintenance services either self-employed or as an employee and that is seasonal for the most part. He could be a self-employed in plumbing, HVAC, handy man services, car repair operation, painter, brick mason, carpenter, tile layer or even a graphic artist or web designer.

Of course, he could simply be unemployed at the time. Being laid off or let go from a job could be a trigger if this killer had a fantasy about this all along.

The one job I can definitely scratch off the list is an employee in a public accounting firm. I know from my time in public accounting if you weren't in the office or at a clients on a Monday that would most definitely be noticed!

I’ve always wondered if the witnesses involved were longtime, local residents of the sort who’d have the ability to recognize the majority of others in and around town and on the trails, therefore the person they sighted was a total stranger
OR
if the witnesses were from out of town, just happened to be stopping by but as a result they’d recognize hardly anyone local including the person they sighted.

After the release of the 2nd sketch, the partial reference to “currently lives or works” in Delphi leaves me wondering if the witnesses were of the second example.

JMO

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

I’ve always wondered if the witnesses involved were longtime, local residents of the sort who’d have the ability to recognize the majority of others in and around town and on the trails, therefore the person they sighted was a total stranger
OR
if the witnesses were from out of town, just happened to be stopping by but as a result they’d recognize hardly anyone local including the person they sighted.

After the release of the 2nd sketch, the partial reference to “currently lives or works” in Delphi leaves me wondering if the witnesses were of the second example.

JMO

Great post. Whether a witness could essentially pick “BG” out of a lineup could be held up against a few factors: proximity of sighting, age of witness, potential face coverings from “BG”, etc.

After watching a multitude of YT content regarding the layout, I still have troubles after all this time. IMO, the area just doesn’t seem enticing to a outsider, nor does it seem straightforward. Granted, that’s assuming “BG” was spotted via the trails and not walking along the highway or something of that nature.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I’m basing this on the assumption that this info was reported after knowing that two girls were murdered. But correct me if I am wrong.

Someone reported seeing *something*. LE received this report and made a sketch but at the time may not have considered this person a suspect. I think it’s unusual to have someone call in a report because they were concerned and the police did not consider this person a suspect until years later. *edited for spelling because I’m a dumb dumb

So what is it that a layperson saw that they thought should be reported that was “dismissed” (for lack of better word) by the police? It must be something somewhat innocuous, right? Otherwise it wouldn’t have been dismissed.

Some speculation on my part:

• Walking away from the known crime scene quickly.
• Walking off the trail (meaning not on the path or being on the private property)
• Passing others on the trail with eyes down and not greeting others on the trail (just unfriendly behavior)
• Gruesome and I hate to say it but maybe washing off a knife in the creek.
• Changing clothes

bbm
Changing clothes would be an explanation, IMO. On the other hand I can't imagine, that BG was so inattentive to do it while someone was able to watch.

 

[BigTexas]

I had an idea pop into my head. What if BG was wearing different clothes underneath another set of clothes? Not only would it be faster than changing clothes, per se, but it could have also altered his figure and make him appear bigger, more heavy set than he really is. Could having two full layers of clothes on throw off his gait?
MOO

 

[I wonder]

One of the things that constantly whirls around in my head is why LE have always been so insistent that the murderer is likely to be local. I'm in the UK and have never been to Indiana, or Delphi, but it seems that Delphi is a reasonably small place, where families remain for generations and that most people will know or at least recognise other local residents, even if they don't know their name. My understanding is that a lot of people joined the search the night the girls went missing, with some continuing through the night and the next morning.

Since the murders the local community has worked really hard to fundraise and build a memorial park for Abby and Libby and work has been done to make the trail more accessible for people and make the bridge safer. People seem to genuinely care about each other.

It sounds like the sort of community where you would feel safe. Abby and Libby were given permission to go there alone (an isolated area) and dropped off by Libby's sister. Abby's mum has said that she would have given Abby permission had she been asked.

I would say that Delphi sounds like somewhere where evil VISITED (as opposed to lives), yet the police have repeatedly said that they believe it is someone who either lives or lived in the area or knows it well. They say they have evidence that they believe only a local would know about.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later

I do wonder if this insistence has trapped the police thought wise. I don't know the details of the investigation, but surely it is time to come at this from a different angle? Why is it beyond the realms of possibility that a complete stranger could either travel for work, visit relatives or even be unable to work and have a lot of time on his hands and drive to Delphi either targetting it, or just taking a shot that a local beauty spot will have someone who will fulfill his fantasies/needs?

Do the police know of some specific reason why the murderer is local or is it all circumstantial? Are LE pinning this case on the belief that an item that was perhaps left at the scene is unusual and although found locally, is unlikely to be just stumbled across? I genuinely worry that this is the case.

 

[Skully]

Since the FBI is involved from the beginning, it is most likely this case was put into V.I.C.A.P. But the problem with VICAP is it is voluntarily done. It is not a law that you have to enter cases, so it creates a problem because if there is a case similar to this one, it may not have been entered. I have done about 11 to enter into the system and it is a time consuming process, and you have to have manpower to do it. Not every agency has the personal to sit and enter it in, let alone all your older cases. And you have to get the information right, garbage in, garbage out, an old saying for computer data entry.

 

[CocoChanel]

Since the FBI is involved from the beginning, it is most likely this case was put into V.I.C.A.P. But the problem with VICAP is it is voluntarily done. It is not a law that you have to enter cases, so it creates a problem because if there is a case similar to this one, it may not have been entered. I have done about 11 to enter into the system and it is a time consuming process, and you have to have manpower to do it. Not every agency has the personal to sit and enter it in, let alone all your older cases. And you have to get the information right, garbage in, garbage out, an old saying for computer data entry.

If only this would be an example of how to use crowdsourcing, or more accurately, Websleuths volunteer help! So many of us on here would be willing to pitch in from our computers and devices at home to help with the tedious part of LE. I realize that inherently causes lots of security challenges and concerns, AND I believe there would be ways to help insure folks doing this are vetted and checked on. If only.....
.

 

[Skully]

Going with my assumption/belief that this guy lived outside the county at the time of murders it opens up some options. (I tend to believe this killer learned about the trails from years ago either in middle school or high school or visited a relative - aunt/uncle, grandparent - and has been away the county for some time now.) This was a Monday so that day is a slow day in some retail trades like grocery stores so he could have had Monday off and if he lived outside the area his co-workers would not have known if he took a road trip. When I go the grocery store I'm really watching the items and the prices and not the cashier. He could have worked in landscaping/lawn maintenance services either self-employed or as an employee and that is seasonal for the most part. He could be a self-employed in plumbing, HVAC, handy man services, car repair operation, painter, brick mason, carpenter, tile layer or even a graphic artist or web designer.

Of course, he could simply be unemployed at the time. Being laid off or let go from a job could be a trigger if this killer had a fantasy about this all along.

The one job I can definitely scratch off the list is an employee in a public accounting firm. I know from my time in public accounting if you weren't in the office or at a clients on a Monday that would most definitely be noticed!

I bet they were off for President's day. Most schools here give the students off and our banks and federal employees have the day off. So that is something else to think about, BG maybe knew kids were out of school and it was a warm day, and that is the only thing to do in the area, according to Libby's grandma. I agree he could have done any of those jobs you list, but it is well known that truck drivers have the best suited job for being serial killers. No offence to Truckers. Even the FBI agrees with this, and has stats on their site about it.

 

[Skully]

If only this would be an example of how to use crowdsourcing, or more accurately, Websleuths volunteer help! So many of us on here would be willing to pitch in from our computers and devices at home to help with the tedious part of LE. I realize that inherently causes lots of security challenges and concerns, AND I believe there would be ways to help insure folks doing this are vetted and checked on. If only.....
.

Well they only give one or two people the authority to input data in an agency, at least with ours. And no agency would allow you or the FBI to do it from home. But with that said, so many of you here would be a wonderful source of help in your local PD or Sherriff office. We use them all the time to help out. How do you think I ended up in cold cases? You may not get to do what you want at first, but once you do the background check you can show what you can do. I think many people here would have lots to offer an agency. Look on the websites in your town and see if they have applications for volunteers or civilian jobs.

 

[Cryptic]

I believe that Monday (possibly previous Friday?) was a calendared day off for children due to some variation of a inclement weather day too. Locally speaking, this would have been made public (to all locals) at the beginning of the school year. I’d be curious if the same days/dates are a recurrent theme each year.

My impression is that they are recurrent. For example, unused winter bad weather days in my local district automatically default to two days.

But..... the number of people who notice when the default days are and then remember to apply the possibility of no inclement weather days used thus default to schools being off on "X" day could be relatively small.

 

[Peppery]

I bet they were off for President's day. Most schools here give the students off and our banks and federal employees have the day off. So that is something else to think about, BG maybe knew kids were out of school and it was a warm day, and that is the only thing to do in the area, according to Libby's grandma. I agree he could have done any of those jobs you list, but it is well known that truck drivers have the best suited job for being serial killers. No offence to Truckers. Even the FBI agrees with this, and has stats on their site about it.

They were NOT out of school for Presidents Day. Presidents Day was the following week, February 20, 2017. It was a day off because the school system didn’t use all its planned snow days. We don’t know when the district decided to actually make it a day off but it was likely on the calendar as a possible day off from the beginning of the year.

 

[Cryptic]

Why is it beyond the realms of possibility that a complete stranger could either travel for work, visit relatives or even be unable to work and have a lot of time on his hands and drive to Delphi either targetting it, or just taking a shot that a local beauty spot will have someone who will fulfill his fantasies/needs?

I don't think the police have used absolutes in ruling out a non local perpetrator. Rather, I think the police feel that the totality of the circumstances strongly indicates a local perpetrator. This could include formally local people. The circumstances include:

- Statistically most, but no means all, criminals commit their crimes in their comfort zones. This includes familiar areas. The area, though by no means a secret, is relatively remote and not well known,

- The perpetrator apparently knew of shortcuts through private property and / or was able to return to his car by skirting far fields etc. Likewise, the Perpetrator was confident on the bridge and knew that the creek was fordable in that area.

- The area does not seem to be popular with transients. "18 wheeler" trucks parked in unusual places get noticed and none were seen.

- The race, clothing, apparent accent and apparent mannerisms of both 'old BG and , 'young BG' (or both if separate people) are very consistent with the local population.

Again, none of the above makes a non local perpetrator impossible, but the totality strongly points towards a local.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

One of the things that constantly whirls around in my head is why LE have always been so insistent that the murderer is likely to be local. I'm in the UK and have never been to Indiana, or Delphi, but it seems that Delphi is a reasonably small place, where families remain for generations and that most people will know or at least recognise other local residents, even if they don't know their name. My understanding is that a lot of people joined the search the night the girls went missing, with some continuing through the night and the next morning.

Since the murders the local community has worked really hard to fundraise and build a memorial park for Abby and Libby and work has been done to make the trail more accessible for people and make the bridge safer. People seem to genuinely care about each other.

It sounds like the sort of community where you would feel safe. Abby and Libby were given permission to go there alone (an isolated area) and dropped off by Libby's sister. Abby's mum has said that she would have given Abby permission had she been asked.

I would say that Delphi sounds like somewhere where evil VISITED (as opposed to lives), yet the police have repeatedly said that they believe it is someone who either lives or lived in the area or knows it well. They say they have evidence that they believe only a local would know about.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later

I do wonder if this insistence has trapped the police thought wise. I don't know the details of the investigation, but surely it is time to come at this from a different angle? Why is it beyond the realms of possibility that a complete stranger could either travel for work, visit relatives or even be unable to work and have a lot of time on his hands and drive to Delphi either targetting it, or just taking a shot that a local beauty spot will have someone who will fulfill his fantasies/needs?

Do the police know of some specific reason why the murderer is local or is it all circumstantial? Are LE pinning this case on the belief that an item that was perhaps left at the scene is unusual and although found locally, is unlikely to be just stumbled across? I genuinely worry that this is the case.

Thanks for stating this so well. It is a concern of mine also that LE is so focused now on their belief the killer has a local connection that they may be ignoring the outsider angle. I have said many times that there are lots of reasons someone may be familiar with an area they don’t live in. I would hope there are other reasons they believe he’s local. It would be nice to know what those are we are told nothing as usual.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I don't think the police have used absolutes in ruling out a non local perpetrator. Rather, I think the police feel that the totality of the circumstances strongly indicates a local perpetrator. This could include formally local people. The circumstances include:

- Statistically most, but no means all, criminals commit their crimes in their comfort zones. This includes familiar areas. The area, though by no means a secret, is relatively remote and not well known,

- The perpetrator apparently knew of shortcuts through private property and / or was able to return to his car by skirting far fields etc. Likewise, the Perpetrator was confident on the bridge and knew that the creek was fordable in that area.

- The area does not seem to be popular with transients. "18 wheeler" trucks parked in unusual places get noticed and none were seen.

- The race, clothing, apparent accent and apparent mannerisms of both 'old BG and , 'young BG' (or both if separate people) are very consistent with the local population.

Again, none of the above makes a non local perpetrator impossible, but the totality strongly points towards a local.

This is a great post. Great information.

 

[Skully]

They were NOT out of school for Presidents Day. Presidents Day was the following week, February 20, 2017. It was a day off because the school system didn’t use all its planned snow days. We don’t know when the district decided to actually make it a day off but it was likely on the calendar as a possible day off from the beginning of the year.

Well THANKS for clearing that up!!!

 

[Ekliptika]

Do the police know of some specific reason why the murderer is local or is it all circumstantial? Are LE pinning this case on the belief that an item that was perhaps left at the scene is unusual and although found locally, is unlikely to be just stumbled across? I genuinely worry that this is the case.

I believe that may very Well be the case that LE found something at the crime scene that makes them believe very strongly that it is someone local who have either lived there or worked there.
I have seen people speculating about his boots seen in the video, zooming in an comparing to boots apparently used by personel working at the Indy packers plant site. I heard in one of the Podcasts that there were footprints found near the creek. Could be that those foot prints, if such were in fact found, was comparable to footwear used at the packers site or some other local site, giving a strong hint that it was someone with some local connection.
Above is pure speculation and just an example on how there could be evidence found at the crime scene that could indicate someone local.

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe that may very Well be the case that LE found something at the crime scene that makes them believe very strongly that it is someone local who have either lived there or worked there.
I have seen people speculating about his boots seen in the video, zooming in an comparing to boots apparently used by personel working at the Indy packers plant site. I heard in one of the Podcasts that there were footprints found near the creek. Could be that those foot prints, if such were in fact found, was comparable to footwear used at the packers site or some other local site, giving a strong hint that it was someone with some local connection.
Above is pure speculation and just an example on how there could be evidence found at the crime scene that could indicate someone local.

Considering the intensity of police resources put toward this case, I just find it really difficult to believe it took over 2 years for LE to find “something” that caused LE to believe the suspect lived or worked there.

Statistically the perpetrator of any crime is almost always associated in some way to the location where he committed the crime. So 2 years later, for police to suddenly announce the killer was familiar with the area where the murders occurred IMO is not rocket science.

ETA - I suppose it might’ve just been a means of reducing useless tips on lookalikes flooding in on people with absolutely no known connection to Delphi.

 

[sandy_80]

my thoughts on motive ...along side the predictable ones ..the sexual ,thrill kill and rage or fame .....for some reason it gives me revenge/get back .. not personal but against community or state or delphi ....cause when you want to shock the community you take young victims .....
just a feeling