Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[Justice101]

following again....

 

[Cryptic]

I’ve always wondered if the witnesses involved were longtime, local residents of the sort who’d have the ability to recognize the majority of others in and around town and on the trails, therefore the person they sighted was a total stranger
OR
if the witnesses were from out of town, just happened to be stopping by but as a result they’d recognize hardly anyone local including the person they sighted.

I believe the witnesses were, in all probability, long time local residents and thus had the potential to recognize the individual at least by a "Don't know him, but I've seen him around" standard.

But.... unfortunately, they were not able to recognize the person in even a general sense. This inability recognize the person(s) can probably be attributed to the fuzzy fact that Delphi is small, but not that small and isolated, but not truly remote.

Depending on how "local" is defined, Delphi and the surrounding area could include say, 4,500 people. Thus, it is not that surprising that even a long term resident could not identify the perpetrator to even a general standard.

Rather, my guess is that there would be a 50 / 50 chance of a witness having the ability to say "I dont know him, but have seen him getting gas at...."

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe the witnesses were, in all probability, long time local residents and thus had the potential to recognize the individual at least by a "Don't know him, but I've seen him around" standard.

But.... unfortunately, they were not able to recognize the person in even a general sense. This inability recognize the person(s) can probably be attributed to the fuzzy fact that Delphi is small, but not that small and isolated, but not truly remote.

Depending on how "local" is defined, Delphi and the surrounding area could include say, 4,500 people. Thus, it is not that surprising that even a long term resident could not identify the perpetrator to even a general standard.

Rather, my guess is that there would be a 50 / 50 chance of a witness having the ability to say "I dont know him, but have seen him getting gas at...."

Possibly any witnesses were local although I’m not so sure about “don’t know him, but have seen him around”. It would seem to me a televised PC releasing a sketch and dramatically announcing a new direction would be a last resort compared to the alternative of LE personally canvassing a small community, if they were confident he’d be identified within. I think the possible suspect wasn’t recognized at all, regardless of who observed him but that’s JMO.

 

[Falling Down]

I had an idea pop into my head. What if BG was wearing different clothes underneath another set of clothes? Not only would it be faster than changing clothes, per se, but it could have also altered his figure and make him appear bigger, more heavy set than he really is. Could having two full layers of clothes on throw off his gait?
MOO

My theory is he changed his appearance after he saw the girls. But who knows, LE have not indicated that witnesses said anything about what they saw, vs. what we see in the video.

My walk there in October was eye-opening. The distances and times involved in walking those distances involved in the case were much shorter for me than I'd assumed a healthy adult could accomplish, there. I think BG had all the time in world, so to speak, to prepare for the murders after he spotted the girls, and that may indeed include a change in appearance.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I bet they were off for President's day. Most schools here give the students off and our banks and federal employees have the day off. So that is something else to think about, BG maybe knew kids were out of school and it was a warm day, and that is the only thing to do in the area, according to Libby's grandma. I agree he could have done any of those jobs you list, but it is well known that truck drivers have the best suited job for being serial killers. No offence to Truckers. Even the FBI agrees with this, and has stats on their site about it.

I don't know about "best-suited", but judging by the types of serial murders some truck drivers have been known for, the demographic of the girls does not fit at all.

Of all the unsolved "body dumps" by killers driving interstates and other roads, whether they were truck drivers or not (some were traveling salesmen and had other careers), that I've sleuthed here in IN and surrounding states, none involved abducted juveniles. I'm not aware of any murder case which involved an off-duty truck driver and a rural trail like the one the girls walked on that day.

Far as I'm concerned, BG could have any number of professions, and that includes seasonal work. He could even be a LEO, for all we know.

Not arguing, just pointing out that these killers come from varied backgrounds.

JMO

 

[somequestions]

They want the case solved... But like anything there are good detectives, bad detectives, too much information to go through, not enough manpower, etc.. That's where I wish that after a certain amount of time case files would be opened up to the family so they can hire a private detective if they deem necessary. It's weird that in practically every aspect of our lives we have some degree of choice, but if your child is murdered you have to put 100% faith in a group of people that were not elected, you did not choose, work in almost complete secrecy, and they're accountable to almost no one. That's not to say they're not doing the best job humanly possible with the information they have, but you would have literally no idea if they're pursuing lead day after day or they've just lost interest as time has gone by and are just waiting for a tip.

I think you have to trust that LE knows what they are doing. I have serious reservations though. The second sketch looks nothing like the video from Liberty German's phone.

But the families seem to trust LE. If LE catches this person and he looks anything remotely like the second sketch in appearance or age I am going to be very surprised. A sketch is not a photograph, but it has to have at least some resemblance to the actual person if LE ever wants to find this person.

Time will tell whether people continue to trust whether LE is on the right path. I do believe that LE wants to solve this case, but if you do not know who you are looking for or what they look like, it is probably going to be difficult to find them.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

Although we’ve all seen this video, it’s still interesting how close the CPS building was (24 second mark); also how high the water was in comparison to law enforcement (essentially their waist).

It was a high of mid-40s in February, no doubt the water was freezing. It’ll be interesting to know in due time if the girls made a run for it, or if “BG” knew of some sandbar variance.
—
Edit — in looking for general specifics between the two sketches I came across this billboard. I thought the “2:30” timing was interesting.

 

[Falling Down]

Although we’ve all seen this video, it’s still interesting how close the CPS building was (24 second mark); also how high the water was in comparison to law enforcement (essentially their waist).

It was a high of mid-40s in February, no doubt the water was freezing. It’ll be interesting to know in due time if the girls made a run for it, or if “BG” knew of some sandbar variance.
—
Edit — in looking for general specifics between the two sketches I came across this billboard. I thought the “2:30” timing was interesting.

Thanks for sharing this.

@ :54 one can clearly see where it's presumed the girls and BG crossed the creek, the water was knee-deep on the 14th.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks for sharing this.

@ :54 one can clearly see where it's presumed the girls and BG crossed the creek, the water was knee-deep on the 14th.

This chart has been linked in the past but it’s nonetheless interesting. According to it both water flow and depth of Deer Creek were somewhat greater on the 13th than the 14th, and much greater than a week earlier.

USGS Current Conditions for USGS 03329700 DEER CREEK NEAR DELPHI, IN

 

[Deleted member 102539]

my thoughts on motive ...along side the predictable ones ..the sexual ,thrill kill and rage or fame .....for some reason it gives me revenge/get back .. not personal but against community or state or delphi ....cause when you want to shock the community you take young victims .....
just a feeling

bbm
DC asked "Why Delphi? Why Indiana?" Maybe you are right.
What if BG intentionally "poisoned" the MHB area with his double murder for the people, who engaged in illegal trading of something like drugs just there? Doesn't mean, that BG himself isn't taking drugs.

 

[stattlich1]

I used to assist a Psychology teacher in one of his classes. I'd dress in disguise, throw open the classroom door, run in, grab something off a student's desk in the front row, yell something in a disguised voice, (something random like "SAVE THE WHALES, OUR LIVES DEPEND ON IT"), then run out. The whole scenario being not more than 5 seconds max.

Then the students would go through the process of identification, what I was wearing, height, weight, what I yelled, etc.

The recall of untruths was always quite wide and very amusing, with lots of error. There was often one, or maybe two students out of 30 that were fairly accurate.

What I am saying is, I'm not convinced the 'witnesses' in this case are extremely accurate.

I think the killer left something at the CS that would show him to likely be local, or evidence shows he knew something about the region only a local might know, that led LE to believe he was local/familiar to the area.

I had read in the past mention of a tree stand. I know tree stands are strategically placed so as to give a hunter a nice view of the surrounding area. I've always wondered if the killer made use thereof.

It could be that his movements out there were not random at all, rather, the path from where he stalked the trail, to following the girls across the bridge, to the CS, to his exit, was quite obviously determined, leading to the idea he had been there numerous times before.

I strongly believe the killer either planted evidence to lead, or he, or someone else, led LE on a wild goose chase for two years.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I used to assist a Psychology teacher in one of his classes. I'd dress in disguise, throw open the classroom door, run in, grab something off a student's desk in the front row, yell something in a disguised voice, (something random like "SAVE THE WHALES, OUR LIVES DEPEND ON IT"), then run out. The whole scenario being not more than 5 seconds max.

Then the students would go through the process of identification, what I was wearing, height, weight, what I yelled, etc.

The recall of untruths was always quite wide and very amusing, with lots of error. There was often one, or maybe two students out of 30 that were fairly accurate.

What I am saying is, I'm not convinced the 'witnesses' in this case are extremely accurate.

I think the killer left something at the CS that would show him to likely be local, or evidence shows he knew something about the region only a local might know, that led LE to believe he was local/familiar to the area.

I had read in the past mention of a tree stand. I know tree stands are strategically placed so as to give a hunter a nice view of the surrounding area. I've always wondered if the killer made use thereof.

It could be that his movements out there were not random at all, rather, the path from where he stalked the trail, to following the girls across the bridge, to the CS, to his exit, was quite obviously determined, leading to the idea he had been there numerous times before.

I strongly believe the killer either planted evidence to lead, or he, or someone else, led LE on a wild goose chase for two years.

Like you, I’ve also had doubts about the witnesses in this case too. I don’t doubt their desire to help, but getting it right under the circumstances here is tough I think.
I go to the grocery story today, in a store I’m familiar with, do my usual shopping, pass by some folks, some I know, some I recognize, some I don’t know at all. I pay and head home. The next day I find out a murderer was in the store at the same time and the police want to talk to everyone who was there at the time. I doubt I’m going to be much help to police. I wouldn’t have been paying that much attention. It was a regular trip to the store for me. If you had told beforehand “there’s going to be a killer in the store” I certainly would have been paying attention to everybody. I think the same problem exists for the witnesses on the trails that day. To them, they were having a regular familiar stroll on the trails. No one was looking for a murderer that day. They just weren’t paying attention.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Tealgrove]

Just watching that video for the first time this morning. I can't believe I didn't watch it before.

A few things stand out to me.

1. Easy access to get away quickly. That road network that leads to a slew of other roads (highways, I'm presuming), and would make for a very easy and quick getaway to places far from the scene. So did he drive? Walk? Bike? If he drove he'd be long gone by the time the girls were found. If he left under cover of darkness it doesn't surprise me that no one saw him after the fact.

2. There were a ton of LE vehicles everywhere. That also means a LOT of people traipsing around. Could evidence have been lost, damaged etc. with all of that? I have to think that it could have been compromised to a degree.

3. Looking at the lay of the land, I have to believe that BG was familiar with area. He either staked it out in advance or knew the area well. If he had staked it out previously I think there would have been sightings. That leads me to believe he had prior knowledge and was definitely familiar. This would be why LE believes he has ties to Delphi somehow. To play devil's advocate, I hike in places that I have searched out and gone on day trips but I have no connection to those places.

4. Could the cemetery have any connection? Could a family member be buried there? A friend? Was anyone seen visiting in the cemetery leading up to this? I wonder if they have researched the family graves to see if something panned out there?

For the life of me, with a video and audio, I cannot believe this guy has not been found. Someone knows him and they are either totally oblivious, living in fear of him, or.......protecting him.

MOO

 

[Peppery]

Like you, I’ve also had doubts about the witnesses in this case too. I don’t doubt their desire to help, but getting it right under the circumstances here is tough I think.
I go to the grocery story today, in a store I’m familiar with, do my usual shopping, pass by some folks, some I know, some I recognize, some I don’t know at all. I pay and head home. The next day I find out a murderer was in the store at the same time and the police want to talk to everyone who was there at the time. I doubt I’m going to be much help to police. I wouldn’t have been paying that much attention. It was a regular trip to the store for me. If you had told beforehand “there’s going to be a killer in the store” I certainly would have been paying attention to everybody. I think the same problem exists for the witnesses on the trails that day. To them, they were having a regular familiar stroll on the trails. No one was looking for a murderer that day. They just weren’t paying attention.
Just my thoughts.

Exactly why witnesses don’t solve random crimes.

 

[Jealoushe]

Do the police know of some specific reason why the murderer is local or is it all circumstantial

Already answered but just wanted to support the theory the person is local because I have some friends who have visited the location and they have advised that it would be so unrealistic for a non local to find that exact trail, and location, that it just really is not probable. That being said, anything is possible, but when investigating you should really look at the most obvious clues, which in this case point to a local. JMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

The theory the suspect had local knowledge was based on the terrain and location. Probably any local could’ve told them that......so I’m convinced this “major breakthrough” was merely a roundabout way of discouraging useless tips on possible suspects with no known connection to the area whatsoever, ie tips on out of state unidentified strangers just because they vaguely resembled the sketch.

“It's probably one of the stronger theories that we have at this time, based on the terrain and the location. We have a strong suspicion that the person is either from the area, has visited there before or has lived in the Delphi area for a number of years."...”
Delphi murders: After 3 years, police say case isn't cold

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The theory the suspect had local knowledge was based on the terrain and location. Probably any local could’ve told them that......so I’m convinced this “major breakthrough” was merely a roundabout way of discouraging useless tips on possible suspects with no known connection to the area whatsoever, ie tips on out of state unidentified strangers just because they vaguely resembled the sketch.

“It's probably one of the stronger theories that we have at this time, based on the terrain and the location. We have a strong suspicion that the person is either from the area, has visited there before or has lived in the Delphi area for a number of years."...”
Delphi murders: After 3 years, police say case isn't cold

I think you are right. The local angle I think has been way overplayed since the April 2019 press conference, and I’ve said before you don’t have to be a local to know about places like this.
I think it’s interesting that the quote you showed included along with the usual “from the area”, “lived in the area” stuff that the person “has visited there before”. That’s a lot of people if you take into consideration that LE has absolutely no idea how many people may have visited the trails. The math would look like this:
People from the area—-a few thousand
People who have lived in the area—-a few thousand
People who may have visited the trails—-everyone else on the face of the earth
That’s a lot of suspects.

 

[ElementalLaura]

Already answered but just wanted to support the theory the person is local because I have some friends who have visited the location and they have advised that it would be so unrealistic for a non local to find that exact trail, and location, that it just really is not probable. That being said, anything is possible, but when investigating you should really look at the most obvious clues, which in this case point to a local. JMO.

A 36-year-old friend of mine had occasion to visit the Monon High Bridge last month while driving home for the holidays. He was passing through Delphi and texted me because I’ve talked with him about this case and how much it still bothers me that the killer hasn’t faced justice. JMO.

He did not have difficulty finding the area and took a few photos of the bridge. He found it eerie because no one else was around at the time.

His takeaway was that he had no interest in crossing the bridge due to its dilapidated state and only ventured a few ties in before turning around — and he’s fit and pretty adventurous. I’ve heard several visitors make the same observation: no one would cross the bridge, especially at the pace BG is speculated to have used, unless he had been across that bridge a few times already. JMO.

That doesn’t mean BG is local, but I understand why LE believes he had visited the bridge specifically in the past. JMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think you are right. The local angle I think has been way overplayed since the April 2019 press conference, and I’ve said before you don’t have to be a local to know about places like this.
I think it’s interesting that the quote you showed included along with the usual “from the area”, “lived in the area” stuff that the person “has visited there before”. That’s a lot of people if you take into consideration that LE has absolutely no idea how many people may have visited the trails. The math would look like this:
People from the area—-a few thousand
People who have lived in the area—-a few thousand
People who may have visited the trails—-everyone else on the face of the earth
That’s a lot of suspects.

I agree, far greater than just the population of Delphi, that’s for sure.

At times, it must be extremely difficult for the people of Delphi due to the public impression by some that one of them surely must hold the key to unlocking the identity of the killer. that plus public suspicion often leads to unfounded rumours. I sure don’t blame the townsfolk for going silent and instead focusing their attention on building of the memorial park.

 

[MistyWaters]

Interesting, I don’t recall an adjacent trail being mentioned before.


“If you weren’t from the area, you wouldn’t know (the trails) were here,” (Kelsi) German says, turning away from the trail. “It’s hard for me to imagine that someone I’ve grown up with, someone who grew up in the same place I’ve grown up in, could do something like that.”......

....The bridge is under construction now, blocked off by a chain-link fence, so we walk an adjacent trail down a steep hill, one Kelsi last walked on with Libby two weeks before her death.”
A new path