Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[Justice101]

deleted

 

[Justice101]

I remember watching the video over a year ago.. maybe the first month after the murders.

Seeing it again was reflective in these ways:

1) LE that is searching the river up to their ankles, knees and waist in different places. The crossing at the sandbar sounds like it would fit. (Short people like 13 and 14 year olds would have harder time keeping their feet in relatively swift water if waist high on a human like in the video).

2) To have all of that investigative LE there on such short notice means to me they thought they may have found more work from a presumed serial killer that killed those other 2 girls together at 7 Bridges. THIS TIME, they had a fresh scene and they thought they might catch the killer on this event. <I personally think the two crimes are tied together.

3) The perpetrator knew "the lay of the land" quite well. You cannot see that flat low land where the girls were found from anywhere near the trail. You have to either go down the hill behind the cemetery or go "down the hill" off the south end of the end of the bridge to see that there is a flat plane of land on the north side. very secluded spot. I'm thinking teenage drinker there back in the 80s/90s old stomping ground.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

I need to find the YT video again, but there was one that featured a outsider who visited the area and came across a path (or trail) which wrapped around and eventually led to the cemetery. The scariest part was that there was a spot which featured a direct view to the entirety of Monon if “BG” was hiding or waiting. I also believe this path led to where the girls bodies were located.

I’m basing the above off memory and it may not sound crystal clear, but has anyone seen a video or have pictures of this path?

edit — looks like others have simply called “cemetery path.”

 

[Ekliptika]

I need to find the YT video again, but there was one that featured a outsider who visited the area and came across a path (or trail) which wrapped around and eventually led to the cemetery. The scariest part was that there was a spot which featured a direct view to the entirety of Monon if “BG” was hiding or waiting. I also believe this path led to where the girls bodies were located.

I’m basing the above off memory and it may not sound crystal clear, but has anyone seen a video or have pictures of this path?

edit — looks like others have simply called “cemetery path.”

I’ve seen a video with some guys on YT showing a path (Think they referred to it as a horse trail) leading more or less from the crime scene to the cementary. However, the video was a bit confusing to watch, it was filmed during the summer and with a lot of talk, so I might have misunderstood something. Could that have been the video you are thinking about?

The other day I became aware of another video on YT filmed recently (Dec 2020) showing a sort of trail from where the bridge starts leading more or less to the CS following Along the creek without crossing either the bridge or the creek. This video gave a really good view of what the woods look like. What is surprising to me is that those Woods really do not look very difficult to walk, I had gotten the impression that the terrain was a lot more Wild and difficult.

 

[Peppery]

“If you weren’t from the area, you wouldn’t know (the trails) were here,” (Kelsi) German says, turning away from the trail. “It’s hard for me to imagine that someone I’ve grown up with, someone who grew up in the same place I’ve grown up in, could do something like that.”......

A new path

RSBM

That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Does Kelsi think that BG could be one of her peers? She was 17 and I believe a junior (maybe senior) in high school when the girls were killed. This is the first time that I can imagine him being younger than 40ish.

 

[MistyWaters]

RSBM

That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Does Kelsi think that BG could be one of her peers? She was 17 and I believe a junior (maybe senior) in high school when the girls were killed. This is the first time that I can imagine him being younger than 40ish.

Indeed KG was close in age to the low end of the suspect’s age range, 18 to 40 years old.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

I’ve seen a video with some guys on YT showing a path (Think they referred to it as a horse trail) leading more or less from the crime scene to the cementary. However, the video was a bit confusing to watch, it was filmed during the summer and with a lot of talk, so I might have misunderstood something. Could that have been the video you are thinking about?

The other day I became aware of another video on YT filmed recently (Dec 2020) showing a sort of trail from where the bridge starts leading more or less to the CS following Along the creek without crossing either the bridge or the creek. This video gave a really good view of what the woods look like. What is surprising to me is that those Woods really do not look very difficult to walk, I had gotten the impression that the terrain was a lot more Wild and difficult.

I’m not sure if this was the exact video (I believe the one I saw had a single female), but it sounds like the same path. I’ll check for this video and the newer video you noted as well (thank you!). I was mainly curious on if the cemetery had a view of the where the girls were dropped off (although doubtful).
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After committing the murders, I can’t fathom “BG” recrossing the creek (IMO; but he is brave), couldn’t he have simply just trekked upwards a tad and back to a main trail?

 

[Filly]

I had an idea pop into my head. What if BG was wearing different clothes underneath another set of clothes? Not only would it be faster than changing clothes, per se, but it could have also altered his figure and make him appear bigger, more heavy set than he really is. Could having two full layers of clothes on throw off his gait?
MOO

Only follow you all on this thread, but wanted to reply to this.

A big yes. JMO it is a "thing" here and alot of times with ex cons, addicts buying in open, and of course homeless.

I was taught to look at shoes or sneakers because you can't ditch them readily. Hats come off or get swapped. Lose a jacket you have a sweatshirt. Jeans over other pants etc.

In this case those jeans look too baggy not to have had sweatpants over them, but vice versa? Whatever you can pull off over sneakers or boots without removing them.

I've only seen stills. I'd wondered if his gait was "the hook". People who have been locked up do it. Basically it's all to avoid detection by cops in the city. That or a crowd or dealers all wear the same thing. So a cop will say "black Hoodia, white Tshirt, black baseball cap". That's like fifteen people.

Sorry to barge in. I do see this alot and had to ID a guy who mugged a poor elderly woman. I told the police brand, and color sneakers first because I knew he switched up.

 

[minazoe]

this is the first I heard that the Evansdale area where the girls were found was called 7 Bridges.

okay symmetry . 2 bridges 2 girls for each bridge, the dates ..symetry and pathology..even the names of the girls are similar.

as I have said I think with Abby and Libby there was an escalation because the killer desires attention from LE and wanted to watch it unfold on television for his own amusement.

added; here is a link to seven bridges story;

The pain of 2 Iowa girls' killings remains, but resolve in Evansdale only grows

mOO

 

[JnRyan]

I used to assist a Psychology teacher in one of his classes. I'd dress in disguise, throw open the classroom door, run in, grab something off a student's desk in the front row, yell something in a disguised voice, (something random like "SAVE THE WHALES, OUR LIVES DEPEND ON IT"), then run out. The whole scenario being not more than 5 seconds max.

Then the students would go through the process of identification, what I was wearing, height, weight, what I yelled, etc.

The recall of untruths was always quite wide and very amusing, with lots of error. There was often one, or maybe two students out of 30 that were fairly accurate.

What I am saying is, I'm not convinced the 'witnesses' in this case are extremely accurate.

I think the killer left something at the CS that would show him to likely be local, or evidence shows he knew something about the region only a local might know, that led LE to believe he was local/familiar to the area.

I had read in the past mention of a tree stand. I know tree stands are strategically placed so as to give a hunter a nice view of the surrounding area. I've always wondered if the killer made use thereof.

It could be that his movements out there were not random at all, rather, the path from where he stalked the trail, to following the girls across the bridge, to the CS, to his exit, was quite obviously determined, leading to the idea he had been there numerous times before.

I strongly believe the killer either planted evidence to lead, or he, or someone else, led LE on a wild goose chase for two years.

For those that haven't seen this public service ad in the UK about being aware of cyclists on the road it is a similar exercise. And you have more than 5 seconds.

 

[Kimpossible31]

For those that haven't seen this public service ad in the UK about being aware of cyclists on the road it is a similar exercise. And you have more than 5 seconds.

I had to watch it 3 times before I finally saw it!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Only follow you all on this thread, but wanted to reply to this.

A big yes. JMO it is a "thing" here and alot of times with ex cons, addicts buying in open, and of course homeless.

I was taught to look at shoes or sneakers because you can't ditch them readily. Hats come off or get swapped. Lose a jacket you have a sweatshirt. Jeans over other pants etc.

In this case those jeans look too baggy not to have had sweatpants over them, but vice versa? Whatever you can pull off over sneakers or boots without removing them.

I've only seen stills. I'd wondered if his gait was "the hook". People who have been locked up do it. Basically it's all to avoid detection by cops in the city. That or a crowd or dealers all wear the same thing. So a cop will say "black Hoodia, white Tshirt, black baseball cap". That's like fifteen people.

Sorry to barge in. I do see this alot and had to ID a guy who mugged a poor elderly woman. I told the police brand, and color sneakers first because I knew he switched up.

This is very interesting. BG possibly wearing clothes over clothes has been discussed before but this kinda puts it into context and gives a reason he might have thought to do that. Interesting.

 

[news buff]

Although we’ve all seen this video, it’s still interesting how close the CPS building was (24 second mark); also how high the water was in comparison to law enforcement (essentially their waist).

It was a high of mid-40s in February, no doubt the water was freezing. It’ll be interesting to know in due time if the girls made a run for it, or if “BG” knew of some sandbar variance.
—
Edit — in looking for general specifics between the two sketches I came across this billboard. I thought the “2:30” timing was interesting.

Didn't realize the amount of homes that were close to the area. Intriguing.

 

[Ozoner]

Indeed KG was close in age to the low end of the suspect’s age range, 18 to 40 years old.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the 18–40 age range given as BG's age at the time of the 2019 presser? I believe the age range at the time of the crime would be 16–38.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the 18–40 age range given as BG's age at the time of the 2019 presser? I believe the age range at the time of the crime would be 16–38.

IMO, sketch #2 from 2017 and video from 2017 and age indication 18-40 accordingly for 2017, mentioned in 2019.

 

[Kimpossible31]

If only this would be an example of how to use crowdsourcing, or more accurately, Websleuths volunteer help! So many of us on here would be willing to pitch in from our computers and devices at home to help with the tedious part of LE. I realize that inherently causes lots of security challenges and concerns, AND I believe there would be ways to help insure folks doing this are vetted and checked on. If only.....
.

This reminded me of a show that was on called Wisdom of the Crowd. Did anyone watch it? Granted, it was fiction, and only on for one season, but the entire time, I kept thinking this could work, in some sort of reality for all kinds of situations.

 

[Tealgrove]

I just finished watching "Ripper" on Netflix. It's a documentary about the Yorkshire Ripper Investigation in Britain many years ago.

I was dumbfounded by the amount of paper they accumulated. The names, the places, the license plate #'s etc. They were drowning in paper and stuff.

It also turned out that LE had actually interviewed Peter Sutcliffe 9 times. Not once, not twice but NINE times. His name was there. It was among the paper.

I can't help but think that something similar has happened here with Abby and Libby. The sheer volume of tips, paper, evidence etc. etc., has to be overwhelming.

Several differences today though. DNA, Computers and advanced forensics.

This will get solved. I know it will. I'm willing to bet that the killer's name is somewhere among the tips and that it's even possible that he's been interviewed.

MOO

 

[JnRyan]

I just finished watching "Ripper" on Netflix. It's a documentary about the Yorkshire Ripper Investigation in Britain many years ago.

I was dumbfounded by the amount of paper they accumulated. The names, the places, the license plate #'s etc. They were drowning in paper and stuff.

It also turned out that LE had actually interviewed Peter Sutcliffe 9 times. Not once, not twice but NINE times. His name was there. It was among the paper.

I can't help but think that something similar has happened here with Abby and Libby. The sheer volume of tips, paper, evidence etc. etc., has to be overwhelming.

Several differences today though. DNA, Computers and advanced forensics.

This will get solved. I know it will. I'm willing to bet that the killer's name is somewhere among the tips and that it's even possible that he's been interviewed.

MOO

Gary Ridgway was a suspect in the Green River Murders in 1983, 18 years before he was arrested in November 2001.
Gary Ridgway - Wikipedia
"Ridgway was arrested in 1982 and 2001 on charges related to prostitution. He became a suspect in the Green River killings in 1983. In 1984, Ridgway passed a polygraph test. On April 7, 1987, police took hair and saliva samples from Ridgway."

I also often wonder if the killer of Abigail and Liberty is in among the vast number of tips LE has received.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

The other day I became aware of another video on YT filmed recently (Dec 2020) showing a sort of trail from where the bridge starts leading more or less to the CS following Along the creek without crossing either the bridge or the creek. This video gave a really good view of what the woods look like. What is surprising to me is that those Woods really do not look very difficult to walk, I had gotten the impression that the terrain was a lot more Wild and difficult.

That was part of the "Delphi Boots on the Ground" series, which IMO were the most valuable videos since early in the case. The guy didn't cross the bridge. Instead from the foot of the bridge he walked straight left along the ridge above Deer Creek, and followed it around to the crime scene. Essentially that is Bridge Guy's possible route after the murders...but in reverse.

You are correct. It did not look particularly difficult. As always the time of year makes a vast difference in that area. The only prior video was Greeno in mid summer with lush vegetation. That made everything seem dark and congested and strenuous since he's dodging branches, etc. The more recent video demonstrated it is very straight forward.

But also there's enough tree cover over there you wouldn't feel exposed. Let's face it, only from the bridge area could you see anyone walking in that area. And once someone reaches the bridge, the bridge becomes their focal point. They aren't reaching the foot of the bridge then turning their neck 90 degrees left to check the woods across the creek. That area is known now because of this case. Nobody cared prior to February 2017. Bridge Guy could walk back without much concern at all, until he reaches the trail itself, if he did rejoin the trail. I doubt he expected to see anyone on the trail. That would certainly be underdog status, within minutes window. As Falling Down has emphasized the distances are fairly short.

The male from the arguing couple may have seen Bridge Guy on the path. I understand he has later recanted. Law enforcement was apparently frustrated he wasted their time. Some speculate he actually saw Flannel Shirt Guy (McCain) and not Bridge Guy.

The frustrating aspect in this case is we have reports of witnesses but nothing concrete. In a small market the media did not find them and get anything on film or in print. Otherwise we'd have a much better idea. For example, Karl Nollsch in the Maggiore (EAR) murders was quickly interviewed by local Sacramento television and newspapers. Those clips and articles were available in the subsequent 40 years, enabling a perspective of what took place. In Delphi we have some second hand reports from bitterbeatpoet, who came across as very reliable to me. But no question other versions would be preferable. bitterbeatpoet didn't use a journalistic approach of specific quotes. He provided summaries of what the witnesses supposedly said. The young witness at Freedom Bridge may not have responded well if she had a guy with a notepad jotting down everything she said.

In a small market like Delphi it's possible if not probable that local and nearby media members know exactly who the 16 year old is, but they don't push the matter. She may be scared to be identified, given Bridge Guy not apprehended. Concern for the 16 year old could also partially be the reason Doug Carter changed the direction of that April 2019 presser, after the press release specifically said, "We have a witness. You made mistakes."

Put that out there and the press is immediately going to to ask about the witness and try to locate. Instead nobody seemed to care about the press release as opposed to "The Shack."

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Was it ever said who actually found the girls?

I just started watching the original PCs on YT, but I’ve haven’t not heard a specific name mentioned. Instead I’ve heard a lot of vagueness.