Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[Ekliptika]

Thanks for this. This is very interesting.
If the guy in the first sketch was found and ruled out, and if they went with that sketch for seemingly legitimate reasons, then why not just tell the public so we can all move on together. Instead they just allow us all to speculate to infinity about what it all means. I don’t get it. Why can’t they just be up front and honest about these kind of things. Are they afraid it will make them look bad? Too late on that one I’m afraid.

I don’t get this either. If LE share this kind of information with the families, but without asking the families to keep the information private, why not share publical? I have never been close to a murder investigation (thank God!) but I assume that if LE shares info about a case with relatives, wouldn’t they ask the relatives to keep private if they do not want this info to be known to the public? And if you were a relative and trusted LE wouldn’t you keep that info to youself? So I assume that when AW shares this info in an YT interview it is because this info is not consideret sensitive to the case? Why is LE then not out saying to clearly disregard the OBG sketch? Why this confusing comment about the suspect might look like someone in between the 2 sketches? Like both of them count? And considered to be of the same individual? I just don’t get this.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I don’t get this either. If LE share this kind of information with the families, but without asking the families to keep the information private, why not share publical? I have never been close to a murder investigation (thank God!) but I assume that if LE shares info about a case with relatives, wouldn’t they ask the relatives to keep private if they do not want this info to be known to the public? And if you were a relative and trusted LE wouldn’t you keep that info to youself? So I assume that when AW shares this info in an YT interview it is because this info is not consideret sensitive to the case? Why is LE then not out saying to clearly disregard the OBG sketch? Why this confusing comment about the suspect might look like someone in between the 2 sketches? Like both of them count? And considered to be of the same individual? I just don’t get this.

It is frustrating four years out in this investigation that LE seems oblivious to how much confusion they themselves have and are creating unnecessarily. Plus they never really clear any of it up. Sometimes they don’t even seem to try to clear things up. I don’t get it either.

 

[sunshineray]

I don’t get this either. If LE share this kind of information with the families, but without asking the families to keep the information private, why not share publical? I have never been close to a murder investigation (thank God!) but I assume that if LE shares info about a case with relatives, wouldn’t they ask the relatives to keep private if they do not want this info to be known to the public? And if you were a relative and trusted LE wouldn’t you keep that info to youself? So I assume that when AW shares this info in an YT interview it is because this info is not consideret sensitive to the case? Why is LE then not out saying to clearly disregard the OBG sketch? Why this confusing comment about the suspect might look like someone in between the 2 sketches? Like both of them count? And considered to be of the same individual? I just don’t get this.

LE did tell the public to disregard the first sketch. They didn't say we found him or we eliminated him from our suspects but it was in Dec 2018 and early 2019, before the April press conference, that LE is quoted as saying they sent DNA to Quantico to be researched and then that they'd looked into a man CE (who favored the first sketch).

Then ISP Carter said repeatedly in interviews that he thought the killer would wind up looking like a combination of the two sketches.

If in fact the first sketch was cleared as Abby's Mom has said, why ISP Carter is saying the sketch has value in identifying the killer is all the more confusing now.

Maybe the only explanation is there's a fracture in thought concerning that first sketch within LE?

 

[Peppery]

Thanks for this. This is very interesting.
If the guy in the first sketch was found and ruled out, and if they went with that sketch for seemingly legitimate reasons, then why not just tell the public so we can all move on together. Instead they just allow us all to speculate to infinity about what it all means. I don’t get it. Why can’t they just be up front and honest about these kind of things. Are they afraid it will make them look bad? Too late on that one I’m afraid.

Not only that, but they are risking that man's life if he's been deemed innocent. Many people still think the first sketch released looks much more like the man in Libby's video, myself included. LE is setting themselves up for a lawsuit or innocent man's death by not telling the public to focus only on the second released sketch. I'm sure they don't want to announce he's "innocent" because there's always the possibility he isn't, but this puts him in a very risky situation. IMO

 

[Peppery]

I don’t get this either. If LE share this kind of information with the families, but without asking the families to keep the information private, why not share publical? I have never been close to a murder investigation (thank God!) but I assume that if LE shares info about a case with relatives, wouldn’t they ask the relatives to keep private if they do not want this info to be known to the public? And if you were a relative and trusted LE wouldn’t you keep that info to youself? So I assume that when AW shares this info in an YT interview it is because this info is not consideret sensitive to the case? Why is LE then not out saying to clearly disregard the OBG sketch? Why this confusing comment about the suspect might look like someone in between the 2 sketches? Like both of them count? And considered to be of the same individual? I just don’t get this.

This is why I doubt they say much more to families than they do publicly. Once the info goes outside of LE, they have zero control what happens to it. They risk a family member inadvertently saying something they shouldn't or getting angry with LE and intentionally releasing it. To avoid that, I think LE is extremely selective on what they tell family members, if they say anything at all. IMO

 

[SerialGal]

If it gives the case more exposure then that can only be a good thing. The family want answers and who can blame them at this junction for trying something different to try and help the case. It must be incredibly frustrating for everybody involved that they still don’t have answers.

I thought the same thing. I did check it out but I just don’t see how it will be helpful, other than drawing attention to the case.

 

[Beachlife926]

It is frustrating four years out in this investigation that LE seems oblivious to how much confusion they themselves have and are creating unnecessarily. Plus they never really clear any of it up. Sometimes they don’t even seem to try to clear things up. I don’t get it either.

IMO It’s almost like they have a suspect in mind and/or just intentionally not clearing up the confusion. The police mentioned the suspect wants to know what they know, so why would he give him what he wants?

The way the police said one tip could be the key (along those lines) also makes me believe they have a suspect in mind IMO

 

[JnRyan]

I think the ISP press release posted the other day was their way of saying there won’t be one. Unfortunately.

ETA link As We Approach the Four-Year Anniversary of the Abby and Libby Murder Investigation

from press release—
This is all the information that will be released at this time.

Yes, that last sentence says a lot. At the time in April 2019, I REALLY thought after seeing it at the time that an arrest was imminent. Now with almost 4 years gone by and almost 2 since that April press conference I'm starting to feel that LE was stumped and that press conference was an act of desperation. A gamble that this PC would cause the killer to slip up. And if it failed LE wasn't coming back to the podium. Honestly, how many times can LE announce a 'New Direction'.

I also wonder if administratively these public appearances are wearing on the state leadership. ISP Superintendent Carter, I'm sure has to brief the governor or someone on his staff and this case comes up. At some point, he is going to be told, 'Yes, this is a tragic case, Superintendent. But does it justify this amount of public appearances and ISP manpower and budgetary resources?' Right down the road there was a tragic fire in Flora, but we aren't seeing annual press conferences involving the county and ISP. An 18 year old mother, Marina Boulter, went missing from Bloomfield on New Year's Eve 2014 and the investigative agency, ISP, has never held a press conference to the best of my knowledge and her mother has been begging for help and publicity ever since. The ISP web site has a list of missing persons that is 46 pages.

I'd love to see another press conference in the hope that it will generate more tips - and maybe the one LE needs. I'm just not optimistic it is going to happen. I hope they prove me wrong.

 

[TL4S]

IMO It’s almost like they have a suspect in mind and/or just intentionally not clearing up the confusion. The police mentioned the suspect wants to know what they know, so why would he give him what he wants?

The way the police said one tip could be the key (along those lines) also makes me believe they have a suspect in mind IMO

I think it is possible that LE has purposefully been quiet since the April '19 PC as a tactic to starve out BG of the attention and/or details he might be hungry for. I'm not sure it hints at a specific suspect, but maybe a move based more on profiling or something. IDK.

I also wonder if administratively these public appearances are wearing on the state leadership. ISP Superintendent Carter, I'm sure has to brief the governor or someone on his staff and this case comes up. At some point, he is going to be told, 'Yes, this is a tragic case, Superintendent. But does it justify this amount of public appearances and ISP manpower and budgetary resources?'

Snipped for focus:

I also agree that this could be another factor in LE's relative quietness since the PC. What makes one case more significant than another?

One more reason to consider, IMO, is how damaging the released details have already been to innocent parties in Delphi and around the country. Reputations have been trashed without warrant simply because a small detail or sketch could be molded to fit just about anybody. As I've said before, I think there are likely enough details released for that someone with the "one tip" to come forward. Whatever keeps that person(s) from doing so is not going to change with the release of a few more. IMO, more details equal more fodder for destroying innocent lives, maybe risks jeopardizing the integrity of the case, and perhaps feeds into the killer's ongoing appetite.

 

[Marzipan]

I think it is possible that LE has purposefully been quiet since the April '19 PC as a tactic to starve out BG of the attention and/or details he might be hungry for. I'm not sure it hints at a specific suspect, but maybe a move based more on profiling or something. IDK.


Snipped for focus:

I also agree that this could be another factor in LE's relative quietness since the PC. What makes one case more significant than another?

One more reason to consider, IMO, is how damaging the released details have already been to innocent parties in Delphi and around the country. Reputations have been trashed without warrant simply because a small detail or sketch could be molded to fit just about anybody. As I've said before, I think there are likely enough details released for that someone with the "one tip" to come forward. Whatever keeps that person(s) from doing so is not going to change with the release of a few more. IMO, more details equal more fodder for destroying innocent lives, maybe risks jeopardizing the integrity of the case, and perhaps feeds into the killer's ongoing appetite.

Edited because it posted before I typed anything!
I ageee 95%. And I also think they can’t clear up the sketches much more because they do not all ageee with one another. And they don’t want to go too far in clearing anyone who may have been looked at partly because they resembled a sketch. Those people they are no longer very interested in , as they say, could come back into play. We all know the legal gift clearing someone too early gives to a defender.

Back to the 5% in my wavering disagreement. And really only about 3% because I’m not sure. Shoe size and more shoe information. They surely have it, right? Shoe size, type, and any info about limps or anything that can be physically profiled from shoe impressions could help a suspicious wife or girlfriend gain more certainty about her suspicions. She could be in denial and needs more.

I’ve said this before and received replies that argue reasons not to share shoe/foot info. I’m not sure about anything. The professionals know better than I do. I suppose the info could look like it’s zeroing in even closer on someone rumored to be BG who has that size and shoe type but is innocent. But it could also rule out others, while providing a useful detail in identifying BG.

 

[TL4S]

Edited because it posted before I typed anything!
I ageee 95%. And I also think they can’t clear up the sketches much more because they do not all ageee with one another. And they don’t want to go too far in clearing anyone who may have been looked at partly because they resembled a sketch. Those people they are no longer very interested in , as they say, could come back into play. We all know the legal gift clearing someone too early gives to a defender.

Back to the 5% in my wavering disagreement. And really only about 3% because I’m not sure. Shoe size and more shoe information. They surely have it, right? Shoe size, type, and any info about limps or anything that can be physically profiled from shoe impressions could help a suspicious wife or girlfriend gain more certainty about her suspicions. She could be in denial and needs more.

I’ve said this before and received replies that argue reasons not to share shoe/foot info. I’m not sure about anything. The professionals know better than I do. I suppose the info could look like it’s zeroing in even closer on someone rumored to be BG who has that size and shoe type but is innocent. But it could also rule out others, while providing a useful detail in identifying BG.

I think shoe size could be innocuous enough to the case to be helpful, but I suppose LE would firstly have to have good prints, and secondly, be able to prove the prints belong to the suspect. Depending on the conditions, the prints might not have been viable if the shoes were caked with mud. It's an interesting thought, though. It's kind of like the "reddish- brown" hair description that never changed through two sketches. To my mind that says they definitely have a hair sample which they feel certain belongs to the suspect.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Someone this morning “liked” a handful of my posts I made way back on April 22 2019. It afforded me the opportunity to re-read them and re-visit that moment. Thanks superbee!
Wow. I was so wide-eyed with anticipation. We all were! This was it! They had him! An arrest within two weeks! It was like a giant group hug with tears of relief. It would all be over soon!
Now....two years later.
What the heck. What was LE trying to pull off there. Sure sucked me in. Whatever it was, it was an epic fail.
I did enjoy reading the posts from back then though. We go back and forth with ideas but we’re all on the same page and our hearts are in the right place. You folks are great, and one day, hopefully soon, we can celebrate an arrest for real.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, that last sentence says a lot. At the time in April 2019, I REALLY thought after seeing it at the time that an arrest was imminent. Now with almost 4 years gone by and almost 2 since that April press conference I'm starting to feel that LE was stumped and that press conference was an act of desperation. A gamble that this PC would cause the killer to slip up. And if it failed LE wasn't coming back to the podium. Honestly, how many times can LE announce a 'New Direction'.

I also wonder if administratively these public appearances are wearing on the state leadership. ISP Superintendent Carter, I'm sure has to brief the governor or someone on his staff and this case comes up. At some point, he is going to be told, 'Yes, this is a tragic case, Superintendent. But does it justify this amount of public appearances and ISP manpower and budgetary resources?' Right down the road there was a tragic fire in Flora, but we aren't seeing annual press conferences involving the county and ISP. An 18 year old mother, Marina Boulter, went missing from Bloomfield on New Year's Eve 2014 and the investigative agency, ISP, has never held a press conference to the best of my knowledge and her mother has been begging for help and publicity ever since. The ISP web site has a list of missing persons that is 46 pages.

I'd love to see another press conference in the hope that it will generate more tips - and maybe the one LE needs. I'm just not optimistic it is going to happen. I hope they prove me wrong.

One couldn’t say any better...

At this point in time, one could only hope that cases like this might, eventually, provide good school for the local police. Of what not to do. In my state, Bundy’s and GRK’s state, by themselves, generated a lot of criticism of the police, but in the process, they raised a new generation of detectives, much better ones.

In CO, JBR’s case was an obvious disaster, of the magnitude that books are written about, but look how well CO LE was handling recent high-power cases.

I think, the same might happen in Indiana. I tried following Carroll County police department media, only to understand that their regular job was to follow meth addicts, high into bedlam, and deal with their type of crimes.

And suddenly, they crossed paths with a different kind of evil. One hopes that another generation of policemen will learn on their missteps. And maybe other cases in Indiana will be solved.

The Delphi case is an interesting study in sociology, in many ways. You have made comparisons with other cases in the area, and mentioned the money involved. We know a lot about Delphi. Aside from questions that seem specific to Delphi, I am raising one, pertinent to this huge country in general.

With so obvious abundance of trail killers, why don’t we invest into trail cameras? People love to hike and bike, and then, some disappear. And each time, there is the same question, what about the cameras? We can’t rely on Starbucks of neighbor Samaritans. As the country, we can not hope that all private cameras will be on.

But public cameras cost nothing, and should be there to safeguard our children.

 

[Charlot123]

I think shoe size could be innocuous enough to the case to be helpful, but I suppose LE would firstly have to have good prints, and secondly, be able to prove the prints belong to the suspect. Depending on the conditions, the prints might not have been viable if the shoes were caked with mud. It's an interesting thought, though. It's kind of like the "reddish- brown" hair description that never changed through two sketches. To my mind that says they definitely have a hair sample which they feel certain belongs to the suspect.

So each time I hear about the hair, I wonder if ISP Carter could benefit from expanding his reading list beyond “the Shack”, to at least include the books by Francis Collins, a fellow believer but a famous geneticist; maybe to get educated more about DNA?

Scientists are beginning to extract nuclear DNA from the hair now, too. As long as whoever tested the hair haven’t destroyed the material, it is doable. (“Destroyed” would raise questions of a huge magnitude).

Just one article...
Successful nuclear DNA profiling of rootless hair shafts: a novel approach - PubMed

ETA: one shoe imprint might not give enough, two, will say a lot about the gait.

 

[TL4S]

So each time I hear about the hair, I wonder if ISP Carter could benefit from expanding his reading list beyond “the Shack”, to at least include the books by Francis Collins, a fellow believer but a famous geneticist; maybe to get educated more about DNA?

Scientists are beginning to extract nuclear DNA from the hair now, too. As long as whoever tested the hair haven’t destroyed the material, it is doable. (“Destroyed” would raise questions of a huge magnitude).

Just one article...
Successful nuclear DNA profiling of rootless hair shafts: a novel approach - PubMed

ETA: one shoe imprint might not give enough, two, will say a lot about the gait.

A lot of argument has been made over whether LE has DNA evidence, what kind, what quantity, what quality, etc. I've seen more than one source, including Leazenby, himself, say that LE has at least discussed the possibility of using familial matching. I'm going to assume, based on that statement alone, that they have some form of usable DNA. It's jmo. A guess, really.

As a side note: I have no reason at all to think evidence has been mishandled, or that LE hadn't thought to try this or that, or they are inept at their job in any other way. I've never quite understood that sentiment simply because they changed directions and haven't released details the curious public wants to know.

 

[sandy_80]

let's say theoretically that this LE have mishandled and damaged the case to a very great degree ...who can save it ?

 

[Peppery]

Someone this morning “liked” a handful of my posts I made way back on April 22 2019. It afforded me the opportunity to re-read them and re-visit that moment. Thanks superbee!
Wow. I was so wide-eyed with anticipation. We all were! This was it! They had him! An arrest within two weeks! It was like a giant group hug with tears of relief. It would all be over soon!
Now....two years later.
What the heck. What was LE trying to pull off there. Sure sucked me in. Whatever it was, it was an epic fail.
I did enjoy reading the posts from back then though. We go back and forth with ideas but we’re all on the same page and our hearts are in the right place. You folks are great, and one day, hopefully soon, we can celebrate an arrest for real.

When this case is solved, we're going to break Websleuths! Ive been around fr a few other huge cases but this one will be unlike anything we've seen before. I pray its soon.

 

[Peppery]

let's say theoretically that this LE have mishandled and damaged the case to a very great degree ...who can save it ?

So many agencies are involved, Indiana State Police, FBI, Georgia FBI, NASA, crime lab in Quantico, probably dozens more. Im not sure there are any agencies left who haven't worked on this. IMO.

 

[sandy_80]

So many agencies are involved, Indiana State Police, FBI, Georgia FBI, NASA, crime lab in Quantico, probably dozens more. Im not sure there are any agencies left who haven't worked on this. IMO.

again .. this is a controversial topic ... giving assistance of sorts is not called working on the case. in my humble opinion
this is not a federal case so we can say the fbi def worked on it .

 

[cujenn81]

Edited because it posted before I typed anything!
I ageee 95%. And I also think they can’t clear up the sketches much more because they do not all ageee with one another. And they don’t want to go too far in clearing anyone who may have been looked at partly because they resembled a sketch. Those people they are no longer very interested in , as they say, could come back into play. We all know the legal gift clearing someone too early gives to a defender.

Back to the 5% in my wavering disagreement. And really only about 3% because I’m not sure. Shoe size and more shoe information. They surely have it, right? Shoe size, type, and any info about limps or anything that can be physically profiled from shoe impressions could help a suspicious wife or girlfriend gain more certainty about her suspicions. She could be in denial and needs more.

I’ve said this before and received replies that argue reasons not to share shoe/foot info. I’m not sure about anything. The professionals know better than I do. I suppose the info could look like it’s zeroing in even closer on someone rumored to be BG who has that size and shoe type but is innocent. But it could also rule out others, while providing a useful detail in identifying BG.

BBM

I just thought about this detail this morning! I don't see how releasing that information (if they have it) could be particularly damaging to the case. Other details that could potentially jar someone's memory include personal effects that were taken from the girls or items that were left behind by the suspect (if there were any). If a specific weapon was used (like a knife, for example), I think releasing that specific information to the public (using the same knife example, was it a paring knife, butcher knife, serrated knife, hunting knife, whatever...) could very well result in LE receiving that one tip they need to solve the case. It might trigger a thought in Peggy Sue like "you know what... my cousin Billy Bob had a hunting knife that he was always messing around with but I haven't seen him with it in a few years... now that I think about it... and he does talk about this case a lot and has been known to hang around those trails down there."