Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[Yemelyan]

The following was published the day the girls' bodies were found and drew the most ire from posters:

When asked if people in the community should be afraid right now based upon what you’ve seen, Police Chief Steve Mullins said, "I think people in the community are smart enough in our community to draw their own conclusions about what they should feel and shouldn't feel". Our people are very smart. We have a very good community and they are very strong. And they are able to draw their own conclusions about this whole situation, I think, very successfully.”

The journalist then said that the reason he asked if the community should be afraid now that foul play is suspected, people might be wondering if there’s somebody going around the community preying on people that they need be afraid of. The Police Chief repeats that people can draw their own conclusions about the situation and they’re smart enough to figure out what the situation warrants them to think.

Two bodies found during search for missing teens, autopsies scheduled for Wednesday morning | WTTV CBS4Indy

Yes, the video of this press conference was posted here a few days ago and I re-watched. This was maybe the first official press conference of the whole case, done just a few hours after the girls had been found. Certainly before any investigation had been done about exactly what had happened (even autopsies had not been done yet). It had only Leazenby, Mullins, and the ISP press officer Kim Riley, who did most of the talking. They were there basically only to confirm that two bodies had been found and the search had been called off. A reporter asked Mullins this question and IMO from watching his body language and they way he answered, he was trying to deflect this question in order to not inject hysteria into the community. Just MOO.

Edited to add - all three participants in the press conference appeared almost shell shocked at this point. Riley misspoke a few times (calling Deer Creek, Sugar Creek more than once), two of the individuals had probably been up most of the night searching, their words were not polished so it's not surprising that a confusing message was put out.

 

[MistyWaters]

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

“If people have not heard information from an investigator or released by police, they can assume the information is not true,” Leazenby concluded.”
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

******
If anyone remembers listening to a DTH podcast, it sure would be interesting to know WHO stated the bodies were found in a culvert. Given the above statements, LE is telling us all the information we’ve learned from the news is not always correct.

I’d think everyone around Delphi knows what a culvert is and wouldn’t use the word to describe a ravine or gravel pit. Culverts are a common as dirt in rural areas worldwide, more or less serving the same function as underground storm water systems in cities. One was installed under the road leading to the new park in Delphi.

“After weeks last summer of clearing logs and plucking rocks the size of watermelons from a ditch with a borrowed backhoe to make way for that driveway, Patty watched as a crew of Rieth-Riley Construction Co. volunteers cruised in and built a culvert and a drive.
Delphi murders: Dirt moves on Abby & Libby Park, their families’ hands-on, $1M dream

 

[MistyWaters]

I seem to recall Riley talking somewhere about standing on the ridge (maybe the one behind the cemetary, where all the LE vehicles parked?) and looking down on their bodies, feeling sad. Does anyone know the source to see if the actual quote might help specify the location?

And Kelsi's interviews about the moment they found the girls. She was standing on the road underneath the bridge and the searchers were below. I think she said they looked across the creek and saw them. For that story to make sense, is there a culvert anywhere in the area at all?

Also, would that old helicopter footage from the day they found the bodies have anything?

You might be thinking of a prior PC, I think it was the 2nd year, held outdoors at the High Bridge trail.

Something I do recall are media photos, reportedly where the bodies were discovered. Many of us here wondered at the time how an outdoor crime scene could be thoroughly processed without any indications of ground disturbance.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...e-bodies-of-two-missing-teen-girls-were-found

 

[MistyWaters]

I Think it is in one of the podcasts DTH or SOTC that Riley is asked something like if he saw the bodies (I can’t remember exact wording) and then he replies that he saw them from a distance, looking down from the ridge.
Regarding the helicopter footage, I red sonewhere that what you Can see on YT is an edited version. There are parts that has been taken out, but it could be that there is a hint in there about where they were found.

Yes I think it was WRTV with the helicopter footage but it definitely does not include coverage of the discovery site prior to removal of the bodies.

 

[Rocky1]

Snipped for focus

Well, this fits in with my “BG knows Delphi but Delphi doesn’t know BG” theory. Bear with me.

All moo, but I think BG spent a fair amount of time in Delphi in the past. Maybe as a child he spent summers there with grandparents or cousins so he never made many friends, or his family moved out of the town when he was perhaps in middle or high school. The grandparents have since died, or the family has been gone for 30 years and doesn’t give it much thought. Very few people in Delphi knew or remembers BG as a kid. Except his ride, who could be a relative or old family friend.

LE asked for info if anyone saw a hitchhiker or someone walking along the Hoosier Highway from 12-5 on the 13th, possibly with a backpack or bag (I think, could be slightly off). Well we know the girls were alive at 2:07 and did not answer DG’s calls starting around 3:15. We also know Libby’s phone rang for a period of time, then started going to voicemail so I assume either the battery died or the phone was damaged. Assuming BG left the scene as late as 3:30 (but probably earlier), it’s nearly impossible to think he was still there at 5.

Why is the window of 12-5 so large? Well, BG may have called for a ride and he wasn’t about to wait any closer to the trails than he had to be. He started walking HH and told his ride to pick him up there.

He was staying with/visiting the person who provided his ride. To get to the trails that day he either walked, hitchhiked or, my top theory is he had been in the park for a few days. Camping out, doing drugs, hunting, who knows, but it’s possible. Also explains his clothing and possible backpack. He had to wear everything he had and it was cold the few days prior to the murder.

He and his ride get to the ride’s house, BG says he’s going home, his visit is over, and gets in his car and leaves. Ride thinks nothing of it. Ride hears about the girls either that night or the next day. He calls BG and says omg, did you hear about the murder, did you see anything while you were there? Or Ride doesn’t know BG was even at the trails, he may have said he was somewhere else. BG says he doesn’t know anything about it. 3 days later LE releases the BG video, Ride connects the dots and is terrified. He never brings it up to BG again because he’s afraid and BG never brings it up to him either.

Good post.
Let me ask you this.
When BG gets the ride, how does he explain the wet clothes and the blood all over him, if in fact the girls were stabbed?
If the ride doesn't know BG was in that area, how far did he walk before the ride picked him up, and how many people saw him walking?

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped>

Now, the culvert/ravine thing is not my theory, either; but there is a culvert that runs under the road that empties into what appears to be a ravine. It's on the right side of the south end of the bridge. It appears that the run-off begins in the farmers field, runs down the hill and into the culvert. There's also a red barn and a deer stand. This is all in Julie M's video 1 Retracing Libby and Abby's steps across the Monon Bridge. It's posted here already. If anyone can't find/ the video, I can post a screen cap of it.

It would make sense if there’s a culvert beneath that narrow road in order for ground water to drain toward the river. I’ve watched JM’s video a couple times but focused mainly on her footsteps across the wooden bridge. Thanks, I’ll watch it again.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Link please regarding open visitation

The visitation that was open to the public was supposed to be from 4-8 p.m. But the sheer number of people who came stretched the viewing two additional hours. A lantern release that was scheduled for 8 p.m. started after 10 p.m.

Music played while weeping mourners filed past the white, open caskets of Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, and talked with their family members on the floor of the school gymnasium. Many people brought flowers or mementos. Large photos of the girls were mounted on easels along the path to the caskets.

Memorial for teen girls lasts nearly seven hours

Both girls were buried by friends and family in separate private funerals.

Hundreds pay respects as murdered Indiana girls are buried | Daily Mail Online

 

[TL4S]

It would make sense if there’s a culvert beneath that narrow road in order for ground water to drain toward the river. I’ve watched JM’s video a couple times but focused mainly on her footsteps across the wooden bridge. Thanks, I’ll watch it again.

Kelsie has talked several times about the moment the girls were found. She talks about the shoe, the deer, the phone being used to zoom, but has it ever been said, specifically, that the searcher was looking toward the north side of the creek?

I've tended to assume it was the north side if it's true there were deer nearby and/or a zoom was needed. JMO. I would also like to know who said they were in a culvert. Didn't Greeno have something like this in one of his videos?

 

[JudgeJudi]

the podcast says there were under leaves.

LE has never released this information. It's come from blogs that have also stated how each of the girls were killed and from text messages which haven't been verified as being genuine.

 

[Rocky1]

But does it fly in court? How is the legal side of it?

Can you go to court with the cup you pulled out of a thrash bin?

They wouldn't go to court with the cup, they'd go to court with the DNA results from the cup.
A good Defense Attorney would rip that evidence apart. If they got it from the trash next to the road,(which they can) the Defense could raise doubt it was not from the Defendant, but from someone else in/or was the house. If it came from a restaurant, perhaps it came from the server.
That's why when LE gets that DNA , they go to a Judge/Magistrate and apply for a warrant to collect DNA using the DNA results from the cup as probable cause. Then they obtain a DNA sample from that, and use that test result as evidence.

The post about collecting DNA from every male in Delphi is know as a "DNA Dragnet." Not only is it costly, but there's a lot of controversy surrounding that idea in relation to the 4th amendment.

 

[Yemelyan]

I re-listened to parts of Down the Hill this morning and I didn't hear anyone use the word culvert describing the crime scene. The word I heard used (by Sgt. KR, the press officer) was "gully," I wonder if this perhaps was mis-heard as culvert.

What KR had to say about the crime scene was interesting. I tried to transcribe it but I'm not a professional transcriptionist, this is it more or less:

KR: "I saw a lot of people with blank looks on their face….when I got to the scene, the officers looked the same way. The way the girls were found, how they were found, what happened to them...a lot of things were going through the officers’ minds. Where was the crime scene...how big of a crime scene do we got, how much evidence do we got here to deal with. Crime scene technicians had already arrived…

A couple hundred people had been out looking.

We don’t want to clear the people at the scene too far out because we wanted to keep them close enough to interview them and see what they saw and did at the scene. Any pertinent information we can get, names, addresses, phone numbers. Everyone gave a statement, which is protocol.

Then we tried to figure out how big the crime scene is going to be. The ravines are not deep here but we do have ravines and small hills, the creek ran through there real close to the crime scene, it was down in the lower gully, I guess you could call it, where the bodies were found and there were two hills on each side plus one on the other side of the creek.

The crime scene originally started where they found the bodies. Then after we found the phone, we realized it started at the bridge so we had to back up and bring that bridge into the crime scene. The original crime scene is a third of an acre. Then including the bridge where the video was was taken - you got to remember, you had 400 to 500 people who started looking for these girls the night before, so you, you know, we had to deal with that - there were a lot of tracks, cigarette butts, you had spit, people would urinate...we had to deal with all that. All the leaves were on the ground. We basically had to turn every one of 'em over - that’s why it took so long.

It took a long time to do….I believe we did the best we could do. I’m not going to say we didn’t miss anything, we are human beings...But overall, the way they did it, one guy would check over another person’s work to see if they felt they missed anything. It wasn’t just one crime scene technician doing this. We had our people there (note: ISP), we had other departments there, it was a joint effort in collecting this And then there were people who came in after that and made sure we didn’t miss anything. We had guards, other troopers, who secured the scene. It was well-secured.

I didn’t go up to the crime scene. There was one ridge you could actually go to, and I stood on that ridge and I could see the crime scene 200-300 feet away from me, and I could see the crime scene but I didn’t want to go to the crime scene and contaminate something..but just looking at those two young girls just laying there on the ground, it just brought memories of my daughters when they were that age and how I would feel if I was their father, and it was very emotional for me. Like I said, I didn’t know their parents at that time, but I knew a lot of people in Delphi and a lot of people in the search party. I could feel their pain."

That's probably the best description of the actual crime scene that we've heard. If the girls had been found in a culvert, I don't think Riley would have been able to see them lying on the ground from 200-300 feet away.

In addition, in episode 6 of Down the Hill, they play an older interview with RL where he leads an HLN reporter to the crime scene on his property. He says a large area at the foot of a steep incline is taped off and he doesn't know "the exact spot where they were laying" but that the German family came a few days prior (this was in February 2017) and laid flowers in a particular spot within the taped off circle. He doesn't refer to a culvert.

 

[Snoop Sister]

Kelsie has talked several times about the moment the girls were found. She talks about the shoe, the deer, the phone being used to zoom, but has it ever been said, specifically, that the searcher was looking toward the north side of the creek?

I've tended to assume it was the north side if it's true there were deer nearby and/or a zoom was needed. JMO. I would also like to know who said they were in a culvert. Didn't Greeno have something like this in one of his videos?

In DTH podcasts chapter 1, almost at the end of the podcast, either the reporter or the sheriff says found in a culvert 1/4 mile from the bridge. I think it was actually the reporter who used the word culvert. Probably just an error in the use of the word. In chapter 2 of the same podcasts, it was referred as a ravine. I have also heard the area referred to as a gully, isn’t that the same as a ravine?

 

[RetiredFed]

If TL knew or had an idea who it was and why no threat immediately following the murders....then five months later the release of one sketch, then the New Direction and another sketch twenty-one months after that, then another twenty-two months passed totalling four years and still no arrest - throughout the entire time LE has consistently asking for tips to aid in the identification of the killer —- do you still think after all this time TL knew or had an idea?

The missing piece of the puzzle is his identity.
BBM

Delphi murders update 2019: What we know about unsolved killings
“Even though no arrests have been made, Carter said he believes "we're one piece of the puzzle away from figuring out who this individual is."

"Somebody out there knows who this person is," he said. "I don't think there's multiple pieces of the puzzle. ... I think there's one piece. And it's having one individual with the strength to say that was my brother, that's my dad, or that's my cousin, that's my neighbor, my co-worker. And I think we're one piece away — one piece."

I believe those press conferences were highly scripted and most definitely a targeted strategy. Each word, each sentence was part of a highly crafted message to someone, be it the killer, or someone who knows the killer, or to both. Probably both. Reread the quote that you bolded. I believe he is talking to a specific individual in that room. And I don’t think he believes it’s the killer. Just my opinion.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Good post.
Let me ask you this.
When BG gets the ride, how does he explain the wet clothes and the blood all over him, if in fact the girls were stabbed?
If the ride doesn't know BG was in that area, how far did he walk before the ride picked him up, and how many people saw him walking?

We don’t know how much blood he had on him. The most popular assumption seems to be that the killer walked back along the trails to a car at CPS. Witnesses claim to have seen him but no one mentions blood. My point is he may not have had much blood on him to have to explain to someone picking him up.
That being said, I would think he would walk a short distance before being picked up. Explain any mud, dirt, perhaps blood by saying he took a spill in the road.
Just my thoughts.

 

[TL4S]

The ravines are not deep here but we do have ravines and small hills, the creek ran through there real close to the crime scene, it was down in the lower gully, I guess you could call it, where the bodies were found and there were two hills on each side plus one on the other side of the creek.

Snipped for focus:

Thank you for the overview. I've lost track where all the information and statements are from, so this is very helpful. His description seems to verify the location we've all assumed, since the north side has two hills and the south side has one. Jmo

 

[TL4S]

We don’t know how much blood he had on him. The most popular assumption seems to be that the killer walked back along the trails to a car at CPS. Witnesses claim to have seen him but no one mentions blood. My point is he may not have had much blood on him to have to explain to someone picking him up.
That being said, I would think he would walk a short distance before being picked up. Explain any mud, dirt, perhaps blood by saying he took a spill in the road.
Just my thoughts.

I also think it's possible the witnesses all saw him prior to the murders.

 

[Snoop Sister]

I also think it's possible the witnesses all saw him prior to the murders.

That is what I was thinking as well. Also IMO, he left the crime scene in such a way that he was unlikely to be seen. And, that is why I believe he was from the area or had scoped it out well beforehand.

 

[MistyWaters]

I re-listened to parts of Down the Hill this morning and I didn't hear anyone use the word culvert describing the crime scene. The word I heard used (by Sgt. KR, the press officer) was "gully," I wonder if this perhaps was mis-heard as culvert.

What KR had to say about the crime scene was interesting. I tried to transcribe it but I'm not a professional transcriptionist, this is it more or less:

KR: "I saw a lot of people with blank looks on their face….when I got to the scene, the officers looked the same way. The way the girls were found, how they were found, what happened to them...a lot of things were going through the officers’ minds. Where was the crime scene...how big of a crime scene do we got, how much evidence do we got here to deal with. Crime scene technicians had already arrived…

A couple hundred people had been out looking.

We don’t want to clear the people at the scene too far out because we wanted to keep them close enough to interview them and see what they saw and did at the scene. Any pertinent information we can get, names, addresses, phone numbers. Everyone gave a statement, which is protocol.

Then we tried to figure out how big the crime scene is going to be. The ravines are not deep here but we do have ravines and small hills, the creek ran through there real close to the crime scene, it was down in the lower gully, I guess you could call it, where the bodies were found and there were two hills on each side plus one on the other side of the creek.

The crime scene originally started where they found the bodies. Then after we found the phone, we realized it started at the bridge so we had to back up and bring that bridge into the crime scene. The original crime scene is a third of an acre. Then including the bridge where the video was was taken - you got to remember, you had 400 to 500 people who started looking for these girls the night before, so you, you know, we had to deal with that - there were a lot of tracks, cigarette butts, you had spit, people would urinate...we had to deal with all that. All the leaves were on the ground. We basically had to turn every one of 'em over - that’s why it took so long.

It took a long time to do….I believe we did the best we could do. I’m not going to say we didn’t miss anything, we are human beings...But overall, the way they did it, one guy would check over another person’s work to see if they felt they missed anything. It wasn’t just one crime scene technician doing this. We had our people there (note: ISP), we had other departments there, it was a joint effort in collecting this And then there were people who came in after that and made sure we didn’t miss anything. We had guards, other troopers, who secured the scene. It was well-secured.

I didn’t go up to the crime scene. There was one ridge you could actually go to, and I stood on that ridge and I could see the crime scene 200-300 feet away from me, and I could see the crime scene but I didn’t want to go to the crime scene and contaminate something..but just looking at those two young girls just laying there on the ground, it just brought memories of my daughters when they were that age and how I would feel if I was their father, and it was very emotional for me. Like I said, I didn’t know their parents at that time, but I knew a lot of people in Delphi and a lot of people in the search party. I could feel their pain."

That's probably the best description of the actual crime scene that we've heard. If the girls had been found in a culvert, I don't think Riley would have been able to see them lying on the ground from 200-300 feet away.

In addition, in episode 6 of Down the Hill, they play an older interview with RL where he leads an HLN reporter to the crime scene on his property. He says a large area at the foot of a steep incline is taped off and he doesn't know "the exact spot where they were laying" but that the German family came a few days prior (this was in February 2017) and laid flowers in a particular spot within the taped off circle. He doesn't refer to a culvert.

Thanks for doing that, I really appreciate it! Yes it’s possible the word was misheard or a listener thought a gully and a culvert were synonymous by definition.

Although I was never suspicious of RL, I must say from the onset when he led reporters to the bottom of his property, he seemed to me to be the sort of man who was quite excited by all the media attention. Nothing wrong with that, he lived by himself, probably not much happened in his day-to-day life (a reason he probably didn’t think driving after his licence was revoked was a bid deal). But he also had a tendency to exaggerate somewhat which also might be an indication of the sort of person who jumps to conclusions. His description of the murders occurring “in his backyard” to this day has led people who haven’t followed this case a whole lot into believing it occurred almost off his back doorstep.

IIRC a question was once posed to LE “did the girls cross the creek?” with an affirmative response. Indeed they crossed the creek when they walked over the bridge.....just an observation.

But until such time as the word Culvert comes from the mouths of LE or they correct the word “gully”, then indeed the bodies were found in a gully and that’s the end of it. My intention is certainly not to start rumours, I’m only interested in facts

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Good post.
Let me ask you this.
When BG gets the ride, how does he explain the wet clothes and the blood all over him, if in fact the girls were stabbed?
If the ride doesn't know BG was in that area, how far did he walk before the ride picked him up, and how many people saw him walking?

I think, his accomplice picked him up and he wouldn't have asked a question. IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe those press conferences were highly scripted and most definitely a targeted strategy. Each word, each sentence was part of a highly crafted message to someone, be it the killer, or someone who knows the killer, or to both. Probably both. Reread the quote that you bolded. I believe he is talking to a specific individual in that room. And I don’t think he believes it’s the killer. Just my opinion.

Yes LE has been adamant all along that somebody knows the identity of the killer and public PCs are always carefully crafted.

But are you suggesting you believe LE have known since day one who’s responsible for these murders or specifically who is withholding information?