Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[photographer4]

Isn't there always a chance of a leak? From one of the searchers or one of the police officers. That could throw doubt on the fact that the suspect could only know this if he were the killer. Were I a defense attorney that would be one possible avenue I'd go down. I don't think they can convict on this alone...

Imo they need:
- Fingerprints/DNA + discounting any alibis

Barring that..

- Strong video/audio evidence of the crime or confession to friend or family + something placing the person at the scene.

Or a boatload of circumstantial evidence

I forget now who said this, and I'm loosely paraphrasing but LE have actually stated that if they were investigating as they would in the 60's, they still would have expected to solve this in a few days and are surprised that didn't happen.

DNA is strong evidence, but that suggests to me that they have something else that is strong in this case, that should hopefully garner a conviction when they figure out who it belongs to or how it ties in to someone in particular.

EG: if BG left (this is only an example, this is NOT fact!)... oh gosh, I don't know... a leather glove at the scene, if they could prove he bought / owned one just like it, it makes it harder for the actual killer who confesses to get off on the charge. Of course, there is always the chance the glove doesn't fit so they must acquit (remember O.J & the Nicole Simpson case??)

 

[TL4S]

Yes! It can take awhile. I don't think enough people realize, because it seems that a lot of these cold cases are being solved quickly, just how long it can take to build out these family trees.

The concern for Delphi, of course, would be if the DNA sample that they have is quite incomplete it would make genetic genealogy a difficult course. Whenever a sample is low quality or if it were to be mixed with one of the girls' DNA, generating that initial male profile for genetic genealogists to work with might have been a difficult and time-consuming step.

And I would add that even if they are able to find familial matches, LE would still need to prove that the DNA belongs to the killer and build the case against him, which would add even more time.

 

[minazoe]

So you think that this child killer has moved on to housewives? What sparked your new theory?

no I don't know what he has done or if he has moved on...but this is the type of killer I think he is..an opportunist who will murder defenseless women and children once he can corner them alone. mOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Isn't there always a chance of a leak? From one of the searchers or one of the police officers. That could throw doubt on the fact that the suspect could only know this if he were the killer. Were I a defense attorney that would be one possible avenue I'd go down. I don't think they can convict on this alone...

Imo they need:
- Fingerprints/DNA + discounting any alibis

Barring that..
- Strong video/audio evidence of the crime or confession to friend or family + something placing the person at the scene.

Or a boatload of circumstantial evidence

Yes I agree. In all fairness, when LE talk about only being one tip away from solving this crime it becomes a little concerning now that four years have already passed IMO. It’s appears to be an indication there’s not adequate evidence at the crime scene to identify any one person.

 

[Ozoner]

Definitely possible but from what we’ve heard it doesn’t sound like this particular crime could be passed off as accidental. If he’s a serial killer maybe some of his other crimes, maybe, but not this one. Moo

Maybe he planned to sexually assault the girls, lead them back up onto the bridge, and then push them off to their deaths. Maybe his plans fell apart when on or both of the girls tried to flee.

 

[Yemelyan]

And I would add that even if they are able to find familial matches, LE would still need to prove that the DNA belongs to the killer and build the case against him, which would add even more time.

Absolutely true, the information investigators get from Parabon and other companies doing genetic genealogy does not, by itself, solve a case. It is treated as a "lead" that has to be confirmed through other detective work.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Who is "everybody" and what are they doing down there? Do they go down the hill in the spot where we assume the girls went down or is there another spot toward the end of the path? Is that what's wrong with all the enactments? Maybe BG was on the bridge with the intentions to go down the hill.

From Scene of the Crime, Episode 2

At the end of the bridge, Kelsi remembers looking to the left and seeing where someone had fallen down the hill, but she didn’t think anything of it... “because everybody goes down the hill”.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

So you think that this child killer has moved on to housewives? What sparked your new theory?

Someone has to be harboring him without their knowledge. Like a widow or some single older woman he met after he left Delphi. I agree with you that if he gets arrested during this cooling off period she will be shocked because she has only seen the helpful kind side. Hope she doesn’t get him angry or decide she doesn’t want him around. Someone who can kill two girls has a lot of rage bottled up imo.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Yes I agree. In all fairness, when LE talk about only being one tip away from solving this crime it becomes a little concerning now that four years have already passed IMO. It’s appears to be an indication there’s not adequate evidence at the crime scene to identify any one person.

Or too much weird stuff to sort out the meanings of.

 

[MistyWaters]

Or too much weird stuff to sort out the meanings of.

Yes I’d think any evidence requiring interpretation of its meaning would likely not pass above the bar of “beyond reasonable doubt”.

 

[photographer4]

I bet if everyone just went quiet and quit talking about BG / this case, he would get antsy for more attention and do something to raise people's attention back up and on him. I hate that the girls were killed, and left however they were left, and all that goes with it - especially the waiting on an arrest and conviction, but if we all just stopped talking about it and gave NO attention to him, he'd probably get more annoyed. He likes this game. He likes people wondering and guessing about who he is, what he did and how he got away with it for so long.

 

[Ozoner]

I bet if everyone just went quiet and quit talking about BG / this case, he would get antsy for more attention and do something to raise people's attention back up and on him. I hate that the girls were killed, and left however they were left, and all that goes with it - especially the waiting on an arrest and conviction, but if we all just stopped talking about it and gave NO attention to him, he'd probably get more annoyed. He likes this game. He likes people wondering and guessing about who he is, what he did and how he got away with it for so long.

The problem is, he might come out of hibernation and kill a couple of more girls. I'd rather have him remain dormant.

 

[minazoe]

he does like it because he is like a monkey on a smoking machine..he loves the buzz and gets off on all of it..but at the same time we definitely don't want him to become upset and do something because he wants attention...which he would, no doubt.

we have to face it, this case will be talked about for a long time and if it is solved there will be every kind of media around it.

fortunately though, he won't really ever be able to enjoy raping and murdering anyone once he is behind bars and waiting execution.

but let him have his fun...once he is caught the truth of how pathetic he is will be revealed in the details of his deeds and his life and no one will be even remotely impressed.

so let him enjoy..who cares?..he is mr. nobody.

mOO

 

[Boxer]

Yes and no. If a 25-year-old is "cute", I doubt there would be any problems gaging his age, plus-minus. If he is not very attractive, little would they care, 25 or 65. It all depends on their interest.

Unless Libby, who took criminal justice classes, was different, since she was interested in behaviors. I suspect she could be good with ages, she lived in a multi-generational house, and probably, possessed an unusual amount of intuition.

What else could she have done if she felt uneasy? In 2017, Libby could have live-streamed BG on her FB. Not on SC, but on IG, too.

Why didn't she do it? If she was scared, if she was inconspicuously taking his video, why didn't she broadcast it?

I am always asking myself this question.

MOO.
No time.
IIRC The video imagery we see is restored out of a chaotic few seconds of moving video.

he does like it because he is like a monkey on a smoking machine..he loves the buzz and gets off on all of it..but at the same time we definitely don't want him to become upset and do something because he wants attention...which he would, no doubt.

we have to face it, this case will be talked about for a long time and if it is solved there will be every kind of media around it.

fortunately though, he won't really ever be able to enjoy raping and murdering anyone once he is behind bars and waiting execution.

but let him have his fun...once he is caught the truth of how pathetic he is will be revealed in the details of his deeds and his life and no one will be even remotely impressed.

so let him enjoy..who cares?..he is mr. nobody.

mOO

His next victim.
Hopefully he is a only one time killer.
A DNA redo solve some old cases where the murderer got away, and not kill again as far as anyone knows.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I'm sure they're very hand in hand with LE on what to say and what not to say. Even in the video that I posted a short while ago upthread, Kelsi is on with GH and she says she was about 5 yards from where the shoe was found, but then she says she doesn't know where it was found. He asked if it was in the area he had marked on his map and she said she didn't know. She didn't even clarify which direction she heard them holler from - only that she couldn't see where the guy was when he hollered, and she didn't know where the shoe was found. Then how did she know she was within 5 yards or so of the shoe in the first place?

I think she and all family have been told clearly by LE what is to be said and what not. If they want a possible conviction at some point, the families would be silly to go rogue and release anything / everything they know / think they know etc.

You described classic Kelsi. She is not a good communicator. It drives the timeline guy absolutely nuts because there are so many versions and the reference points jump all over the place, making no sense in combination. Kelsi is a different type of confuser than Doug Carter but the bottom line is the same. Very few remarks can be taken at unquestioned face value.

When Kelsi is saying she was within 5 yards of the shoe, she doesn't mean at the time it was found. She means she may have walked within 5 yards at some point earlier that day, after descending down onto the flat area, before walking back up to the gravel access road. Even then, I'd love to wager that her 5 yards estimate is not even close. If she was within 5 yards it makes no sense not to go all the way to the creek itself and explore along the bank. Yet Kelsi never mentions doing that. When Gray Hughes is using the pointer and Kelsi agrees to an area, that would be at least 30-40 yards away from where the shoe was likely found, not 5 yards.

Gray Hughes would have jumped all over a typical caller who was changing reference points as Kelsi did, not making much sense, and never able to pinpoint a spot. He is properly respectful to Kelsi but you can sense the frustration.

The family may have been advised what to say and what not to say on certain topics. This is not an example. Kelsi has been asked about the shoe numerous times. None of her descriptions have been impressive. She logically doesn't know exactly where it was found because you can't see all the way from underneath the bridge to the area alongside the creek. It is full holler, as I emphasized a few days ago. Gray Hughes was doing his best to hint to Kelsi...hey, this is the most likely area for the shoe, right? Kelsi can't answer because she obviously has not spent much time looking at maps of the area, or at specifics of where the girls likely crossed. It is not her priority. I respect that a great deal.

Kelsi's best comment was that only one sketch of the Golden State Killer looked anything like DeAngelo. Exactly. It has been amusing on EAR sites to see posters claim resemblance in one sketch or another, just because those were the ones they favored pre-identification. Obviously most of the sketches were not of EAR at all. They were someone seen in the area. It's likely at least one of the two Delphi sketches is similarly unrelated.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Who is "everybody" and what are they doing down there? Do they go down the hill in the spot where we assume the girls went down or is there another spot toward the end of the path? Is that what's wrong with all the enactments? Maybe BG was on the bridge with the intentions to go down the hill.

From Scene of the Crime, Episode 2

The problem is Kelsi. Nobody goes down the hill. That is blatant by the fact that the shoe was not discovered on the first day.

The answers to the typical questions around here are always the same: Nobody heard or saw anything because nobody was there. Nobody was there because nobody being there is the norm. Very few people visit that trail in the first place. Only a small percentage of them ever take the trail to the bridge. A lesser percentage of that number ventures out onto the bridge at all. Virtually nobody crosses the bridge fully. And among the tiny minuscule almost non-existent number who do cross the bridge, very few go down the hill.

Always look at things in reverse to discern truth: If the bridge is heavily crossed and everybody goes down the hill, then Kelsi on February 13 wouldn't have seen a darn thing unusual at left side beyond the bridge. It would have been just another day of massive landslide disturbance.

This is not a golf course with groundskeepers replacing hill divots after the latest foursome skidded down.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I bet if everyone just went quiet and quit talking about BG / this case, he would get antsy for more attention and do something to raise people's attention back up and on him. I hate that the girls were killed, and left however they were left, and all that goes with it - especially the waiting on an arrest and conviction, but if we all just stopped talking about it and gave NO attention to him, he'd probably get more annoyed. He likes this game. He likes people wondering and guessing about who he is, what he did and how he got away with it for so long.

... and if he has more unsolved cases for us, how do we avoid to talk about the other cases? I believe, there is food enough for his ego, because he did more evil and can follow more cases, multi-lane wise so-to-say. IMO

 

[Ozoner]

This article discusses the most common occupations for serial killers.
Serial killers tend to gravitate to similar jobs — and some of them might surprise you

Top 3 skilled serial-killer occupations:
1. Aircraft machinist/assembler
2. Shoemaker/repair person
3. Automobile upholsterer

Top 3 semi-skilled serial killer occupations:
1. Forestry worker/arborist
2. Truck driver
3. Warehouse manager

Top 3 unskilled serial killer occupations:
1. General labourer (mover, landscaper, et. al.)
2. Hotel porter
3. Gas station attendant

Top 3 professional/government serial killer occupations:
1. Police/security official
2. Military personnel
3. Religious official

The list may be a little out of date but might still be relevant. The last job on the list—religious official—is especially interesting to me. The way BG addresses the girls and directs them down the hill makes it sound like he is used to interacting with young people. I think that he could be a youth pastor or youth group leader. (He could also be a coach, teacher, school security guard, etc.)

 

[minazoe]

I don't know about this thing everyone speculates on...the " guys "...down the hill thing.

other options?

ya'll.. down the hill
get down the hill, girls..
move it down the hill
you two..go down the hill
good afternoon now go down the hill

really doesn't seem that specific to anyone's vocation does it?

The only thing I definitely get
from his use of "guys" is that he already knows these are young girls.

because one would not use this " guys" on grown women. mOO

 

[photographer4]

I don't know about this thing everyone speculates on...the " guys "...down the hill thing.

other options?

ya'll.. down the hill
get down the hill, girls..
move it down the hill
you two..go down the hill
good afternoon now go down the hill

really doesn't seem that specific to anyone's vocation does it?

The only thing I definitely get
from his use of "guys" is that he already knows these are young girls.

because one would not use this " guys" on grown women. mOO

I think guys is just a common way to address more than one person in a group. I don't think its that significant that he used the term "guys". I think its more important to hear HOW he says it. The voice, inflection and intonation. Its a very clear word. SOmeone should be able to recognize that!