Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Deleted member 102539]

there was a couple fighting beneath the bridge..come on, let's get all the players together for a secret round table..people at the park that day could talk to each other in a kind of think tank..maybe some unrealized memories could come forth?

every little detail needs be re examined.

^^ Now, this would be an innovation!! If that wouldn't bring the last puzzle piece!

 

[stattlich1]

dbm

 

[minazoe]

Agreed. Something strange about flannel shirt guy's statement. Did he say they were UNDER the bridge? How easy is it to get "under the bridge" from the northwest side?

If there was a couple under the bridge, that in itself seems pretty suspicious.

If there wasn't a couple under the bridge, then why would he say that there was?

MOO

could he have said there was a couple arguing, in case someone else had heard something going on... and said they heard or saw something? then it could be construed as something unrelated to the girls?

mOO

 

[photographer4]

They could have, and did park all sorts of other places. The entire road network was closed off. They were parked in driveways, at intersections, along the roads, at the Freedom bridge. They could have, and did, park at many, many, different places.

Right, which just furthers my point - there probably wasn't any better place to park. It didn't necessarily mean it was the closest to the crime scene - heck, it may have been closer to park along the private road at the north side, then walk across the creek. It sounds like they parked anywhere they could, as close as they could to the general area where they were found. It would be interesting to know which vehicles parked where specifically though. EG: a forensics van may have parked closer to the scene than say a cop who's job was to secure the general area.

 

[MistyWaters]

OP stated what the quote was from and who said it too.

Another quote -

“He saw something. He could not figure out what it was. There were two deer standing up there. As he looked up to see what it was, that is when he saw them,” said Libby’s grandma, Becky Patty.

It was a volunteer searcher who discovered the bodies of the Delphi teens, lying in the grass between a group of trees deep in the woods.

“He called his wife who was with us and said we found them. My sister came up and she was crying and she said I’m so sorry,” said Patty...”
Families of Abby and Libby take FOX59 through final hours of the Delphi teens | Fox 59

 

[photographer4]

Someone posted that link last night, and I was finally able to watch most of it today. I found a few points really interesting:
- KG noted that some folks in her search group didn't want to cross the bridge, so the group separated. Some crossed, some didn't. Those who didn't searched along the north side, but not as far as where girls were found.
- "I would have been maybe five yards from where her shoe was" but then she goes on to say she has no idea where the shoe was, she was along the private drive, couldn't see down the hill to where the guy was who hollered up about the shoe. She doesn't know where the shoe was found. Just that it was along the south area. She didn't clarify if the guy who hollered up to her sounded to be in the general area where Grey has marked the shoe or not. If she knows precisely where it was found, she is amazing at concealing this!
- After the girls were found, she was with someone who worked at the school, and that person didn't allow her to go to where the girls were found (its unclear if she knew they were deceased or not).
- She was with grandpa Brad as well, and her first reaction was to run to him to make sure he was ok because he has heart problems (so I'm assuming at this point they knew there were two bodies found, and it was likely the girls).
- Interestingly, she noted she rode back to Brad's house on his RV that was parked along that private road.
- GH shows the route they took out of the area, and KG notes they went past Abby's house, which is marked on the map..
- When they arrived at his house, she called her boyfriend's father who was an EMS worker as she was worried about her grandpa and unsure what to do.

I had no idea that Abby's house was that close! Its less than a mile per google earth from her house to the south end of that bridge. It is super easy access from that private drive down past Abby's house to where KG's grandpa Brad lives.

With that in mind, that they just left the scene on an RV and went to his house, have we been looking at this all wrong? Did the killer even have to have a car in the area to get away in? Could he not have just had an RV parked in the area that he just left the scene from? Would anyone even have noticed if an RV had cruised through the area before or after the murders? Would anyone even have noticed an RV leaving along that private road to the main road??

Learning how close Abby's house was to the scene really made me wonder if the killer just took that back road in and out and maybe that is why there were so few witnesses!

One more thing: the police asked for pics of the area so they could get a handle on what they had going on out there. I wonder what that means: was the landscape possibly changed in the area of the crime scene before the murders? Staged ahead or altered in some way ahead of the crime and they weren't even sure when the changes took place?

What the hell was out there that day?? Better yet, who the hell was out there?

 

[MistyWaters]

About the couple under the bridge - can anyone tell me who said they were fighting? Over time discussion about this couple has filled many, many pages....and many more.

A little history, my recollect......The first time BP mentioned it, she described her son arriving at the pickup location, the girls not there, he walked toward the bridge, met the FSG, asked if he’d seen the girls, his response was no, he’d only seen a couple under the bridge.

From that a great debate as some twisted it into - aha, he wasn’t referring to a man and a woman, he was referring to a couple of girls! Abby and Libby were under the bridge.

Later one of the family members specifically referenced the couple to be a man and a woman, assumably to stifle the speculation.

Then it went to more speculation, this time the couple was really the killer and one of the girls, arguing, preceding the murders!

The off-hand comment about “a couple” continues to grow legs.....even though the timeline according to facts stated by LE don’t fit most of the theories. So when I’m reading about a couple fighting under the bridge I can’t help but wonder if it’s the same speculation headed in a slightly different direction?

Creative ideas, speculation, nothing wrong with that BUT as this was a real life murder case we ought to show respect toward the families and the victims by staying grounded to the facts that’ve been released IMO. That’s why I’m interested in learning the source of the “fighting couple”, if there is one.

 

[photographer4]

The" two deer in the ground moving" was a curious statement by the person who found the girls.

I found that interesting as well. What would draw the deer so close to the bodies in the first place? I always thought deer didn't like the smell of humans at all, and would generally avoid them (unless they're very accustomed to humans, or perhaps have become used to being fed by them etc)? So what would attract the deer to the location where the girls were found in the first place? Were they restrained there in that area (eg: on a lead tied to a tree?). Were they lured there, perhaps by the smell of something they eat? Wouldn't deer just generally avoid the area where the girls were found if there was any odd scent they could detect in that area?

 

[MistyWaters]

I found that interesting as well. What would draw the deer so close to the bodies in the first place? I always thought deer didn't like the smell of humans at all, and would generally avoid them (unless they're very accustomed to humans, or perhaps have become used to being fed by them etc)? So what would attract the deer to the location where the girls were found in the first place? Were they restrained there in that area (eg: on a lead tied to a tree?). Were they lured there, perhaps by the smell of something they eat? Wouldn't deer just generally avoid the area where the girls were found if there was any odd scent they could detect in that area?

My guess it’s not about the smell of humans, it’s that deer get spooked by the movement of humans. I don’t think there was anything significant about the two deer because if there were, I don’t think BP would give away information regarding crime scene evidence.

Instead it’s an example of the family talking about the case so people know about it, in hopes it will inspire somebody to call in a tip to aid LE in determining the identity of the killer. If the family members didn’t add a little personal recollect while doing so, what would they have to talk about? But I do believe they are hand in hand with LE with what they say or don’t say.

 

[photographer4]

My guess it’s not about the smell of humans, it’s that deer get spooked by the movement of humans. I don’t think there was anything significant about the two deer because if there were, I don’t think BP would give away information regarding crime scene evidence.

Instead it’s an example of the family talking about the case so people know about it, in hopes it will inspire somebody to call in a tip to aid LE in determining the identity of the killer. If the family members didn’t add a little personal recollect while doing so, what would they have to talk about? But I do believe they are hand in hand with LE with what they say or don’t say.

I'm sure they're very hand in hand with LE on what to say and what not to say. Even in the video that I posted a short while ago upthread, Kelsi is on with GH and she says she was about 5 yards from where the shoe was found, but then she says she doesn't know where it was found. He asked if it was in the area he had marked on his map and she said she didn't know. She didn't even clarify which direction she heard them holler from - only that she couldn't see where the guy was when he hollered, and she didn't know where the shoe was found. Then how did she know she was within 5 yards or so of the shoe in the first place?

I think she and all family have been told clearly by LE what is to be said and what not. If they want a possible conviction at some point, the families would be silly to go rogue and release anything / everything they know / think they know etc.

 

[photographer4]

Just thinking about the shoe being found, and KG saying she was about 5 yards (less than 15ft) from where it was found. If she was along the private road way, then the shoe was found much closer to the roadway then I originally thought. I'd been thinking along the creek bed, but now I wonder if it wasn't found right off that little private road. These poor kids! Imagine knowing your dad was on the way to get you soon, and knowing it wasn't likely going to be soon enough to rescue you! Imagine having a cell phone, but being unable to dial for 911 for whatever reason! Imagine the terror? Omg.

 

[FrostedGlass]

With all the activity going on overnight and into the morning, the deer were probably confused as to what to do. Maybe they were familiar with Logan's place and just felt safe hanging out in that area. By the reports, they were up on the hill and not down where the bodies were.

 

[MistyWaters]

Someone posted that link last night, and I was finally able to watch most of it today. I found a few points really interesting:
- KG noted that some folks in her search group didn't want to cross the bridge, so the group separated. Some crossed, some didn't. Those who didn't searched along the north side, but not as far as where girls were found.
- "I would have been maybe five yards from where her shoe was" but then she goes on to say she has no idea where the shoe was, she was along the private drive, couldn't see down the hill to where the guy was who hollered up about the shoe. She doesn't know where the shoe was found. Just that it was along the south area. She didn't clarify if the guy who hollered up to her sounded to be in the general area where Grey has marked the shoe or not. If she knows precisely where it was found, she is amazing at concealing this!
- After the girls were found, she was with someone who worked at the school, and that person didn't allow her to go to where the girls were found (its unclear if she knew they were deceased or not).
- She was with grandpa Brad as well, and her first reaction was to run to him to make sure he was ok because he has heart problems (so I'm assuming at this point they knew there were two bodies found, and it was likely the girls).
- Interestingly, she noted she rode back to Brad's house on his RV that was parked along that private road.
- GH shows the route they took out of the area, and KG notes they went past Abby's house, which is marked on the map..
- When they arrived at his house, she called her boyfriend's father who was an EMS worker as she was worried about her grandpa and unsure what to do.

I had no idea that Abby's house was that close! Its less than a mile per google earth from her house to the south end of that bridge. It is super easy access from that private drive down past Abby's house to where KG's grandpa Brad lives.

With that in mind, that they just left the scene on an RV and went to his house, have we been looking at this all wrong? Did the killer even have to have a car in the area to get away in? Could he not have just had an RV parked in the area that he just left the scene from? Would anyone even have noticed if an RV had cruised through the area before or after the murders? Would anyone even have noticed an RV leaving along that private road to the main road??

Learning how close Abby's house was to the scene really made me wonder if the killer just took that back road in and out and maybe that is why there were so few witnesses!

One more thing: the police asked for pics of the area so they could get a handle on what they had going on out there. I wonder what that means: was the landscape possibly changed in the area of the crime scene before the murders? Staged ahead or altered in some way ahead of the crime and they weren't even sure when the changes took place?

What the hell was out there that day?? Better yet, who the hell was out there?

Well I’m definitely siding with TL4S. The crime scene can’t have been directly south of the cemetery, I think it was further east about 1/2 mile upstream from the bridge. RL owns that parcel of land as well.

C - Cemetary
Green - road ending in private drive
Red circle - where private drive is close to the creek bank right along the bowl shaped area of Deer Creek.



Source -
Beacon - Carroll County, IN - Map

 

[MistyWaters]

Just thinking about the shoe being found, and KG saying she was about 5 yards (less than 15ft) from where it was found. If she was along the private road way, then the shoe was found much closer to the roadway then I originally thought. I'd been thinking along the creek bed, but now I wonder if it wasn't found right off that little private road. These poor kids! Imagine knowing your dad was on the way to get you soon, and knowing it wasn't likely going to be soon enough to rescue you! Imagine having a cell phone, but being unable to dial for 911 for whatever reason! Imagine the terror? Omg.

I suppose it’s possible KG was estimating the distance of the person who hollered over to her, but didn’t know if that person was standing exactly at the location of the shoe or was noticing it some feet away?

Yes, I don’t even want to imagine the terror of Libby and Abby, nor the horrid shock by families and friends after finding the bodies.

Families of Abby and Libby take FOX59 through final hours of the Delphi teens | Fox 59
“By 5 p.m. a full-blown search party was combing the woods. The whole time, the families thought their girls were just hurt, cold and lost.

“Somebody has fallen and gotten hurt. They have a terrible sense of direction. Something has happened we just did not know what,” said Abby’s mom, Anna Williams....”

 

[SamisDad]

The following timeline came from interviews with family on the podcast Scene of the Crime — Episode 2.

3:00-3:30 pm
The girls agreed upon time to meet up w/ Derrick at the drop off spot.

3:11 pm
Derrick calls Libby as he approaches the trails to let her know he’s almost there. It rings several times before going to voicemail.

3:13 pm
DG calls LG again (his 2nd call) and also sends her a text.

Unable to reach Libby, DG exits the car and walks a few yards down the path until it separates into 3 separate trails:

1- High Bridge / 501 Trail
2- Deer Creek / 505 Trail
3- Freedom Bridge / 501 Trail

Derrick sees flannel shirt guy coming from the direction of the 501 Trail. He asks FSG if he’d seen the girls down that way. FSG says he saw a couple arguing down by the bridge but no girls, so DG heads down the 505 Trail. He doesn't see the girls and returns to the trailhead.

3:24 pm
Derrick calls LG (his 3rd call).

3:32 pm
Derrick calls LG (his 4th call).

3:33 pm
Derrick calls his mom / LG's grandmother Becky. He relays that he can't find the girls and Libby isn't answering her phone. He then calls his sister / LG’s Aunt Tara and leaves a message asking if she’s heard from the girls.

Derrick then walks toward the Freedom Bridge Trail and runs into FSG again. He tells DG he didn’t see the girls down that way either.

3:57 pm
Derrick heads back to his car and calls LG (his 5th call).

3:58 pm
Derrick calls Becky again.

4:12 pm
Becky calls Kelsi to see if she’s heard from LG. Kelsi heads to the trail to help look for the girls.

4:17 pm
Becky tries calling LG and then a few of her friends to see if anyone has heard from Libby or Abby.

A short time later, Aunt Tara calls Becky and they decide to meet at the trailhead. When Tara arrives, DG gets in the car and they wait for Becky.

4:20 pm
Becky calls LG’s grandfather Mike at work and informs him they can't find the girls.

Her son / LG’s Uncle Cody comes in from work and rides with Becky to the trails. They drive along both routes that the girls could've taken (if they’d walked home), but there's no sign of them.

Kelsi and Uncle Cody take the Monon High Bridge Trail and walk the 1/2 mile to the bridge, cross it, and proceed down the hill on the other end. At the end of the bridge, Kelsi remembers looking to the left and seeing where someone had fallen down the hill, but she didn’t think anything of it... “because everybody goes down the hill”. Doug Carter asks if she'd seen “disrupted ground” and if that’s why she thought someone had fallen down the hill. She says yes.

At the bottom of the hill, there is a long dirt road (private driveway) that connects several residences. Cody and Kelsi knock on the doors of some of the remote homes but only manage to speak to one homeowner who had not seen the girls.

Cody and Kelsi climb back up the hill to the bridge and return to the parking area. Kelsi says they didn't walk down the left side of the bridge end because there are no residences or structures in that immediate area - just woods and Deer Creek.

5:00 pm
Libby’s grandfather Mike arrives and tries to call LG repeatedly, but her phone is now going straight to voicemail. (Calls to LG’s phone were ringing several times before going to voicemail as late as 4:17 pm but were going straight to voicemail by 5:00 pm.)

5:20 pm
Mike calls Delphi PD and reports the girls missing.

*This is so heart-breaking..To believe one was on the very trail and nearby while the girls were being killed or dying just several hundred feet up stream.

 

[Justice101]

checking in...

 

[Peppery]

With all the activity going on overnight and into the morning, the deer were probably confused as to what to do. Maybe they were familiar with Logan's place and just felt safe hanging out in that area. By the reports, they were up on the hill and not down where the bodies were.

Agreed. Plus I think the searchers were about as far east as they ever got when the bodies were found. The deer may have just been trying to avoid the humans who were moving. I don’t recall hearing how close the deer were to the bodies, just that the searcher saw movement, raised his phone and saw the bodies. The deer may have been much further away that we think.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Well I’m definitely siding with TL4S. The crime scene can’t have been directly south of the cemetery, I think it was further east about 1/2 mile upstream from the bridge. RL owns that parcel of land as well.

C - Cemetary
Green - road ending in private drive
Red circle - where private drive is close to the creek bank right along the bowl shaped area of Deer Creek.

View attachment 290753

Source -
Beacon - Carroll County, IN - Map

I'm just thinking: Does the BG collect all the very excellent maps, which are shown here by members? Does he print them even, for storing them in a neatly labeled file ("Delphi 2017"), which is hidden in his "special office" in a filing cabinet?

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm just thinking: Does the BG collect all the very excellent maps, which are shown here by members? Does he print them even, for storing them in a neatly labeled file ("Delphi 2017"), which is hidden in his "special office" in a filing cabinet?

For all we know he could download each and every page of these threads as well. But does it matter to us? Not me. My only concern pertaining to him is that he’s eventually convicted.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

With all the activity going on overnight and into the morning, the deer were probably confused as to what to do. Maybe they were familiar with Logan's place and just felt safe hanging out in that area. By the reports, they were up on the hill and not down where the bodies were.

Hi @FrostedGlass

With the searchers walking all over. I'm sure the deer were pushed out from wherever they were bedded down.