Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[TL4S]

Approx. 1/2 mile upstream from the bridge.

1 mile = 5280 feet

 

[Ozoner]

As the crow flies, it's almost .7 mile between bridges.

There's a tendency for people to round distances to the nearest mile or sometimes to the nearest half mile.

If the girls were 0.25 miles from Monon High Bridge—and I don't think they were any farther than that—then they may have been 0.95 miles from Freedom Bridge (if they were in the opposite direction of Freedom Bridge). If they were 0.5 miles from Mono High Bridge (which I think was just an inaccurate, thoughtless estimate), they may have been 1.2 miles from Freedom Bridge (again, if they were in the opposite direction from Freedom Bridge).

Either 1.2 miles or 0.95 miles could reasonably be rounded to 1 mile, so it is reasonable to say that they were found 1 mile from Freedom Bridge.

 

[TL4S]

There's a tendency for people to round distances to the nearest mile or sometimes to the nearest half mile.

If the girls were 0.25 miles from Monon High Bridge—and I don't think they were any farther than that—then they may have been 0.95 miles from Freedom Bridge (if they were in the opposite direction of Freedom Bridge). If they were 0.5 miles from Mono High Bridge (which I think was just an inaccurate, thoughtless estimate), they may have been 1.2 miles from Freedom Bridge (again, if they were in the opposite direction from Freedom Bridge).

Either 1.2 miles or 0.95 miles could reasonably be rounded to 1 mile, so it is reasonable to say that they were found 1 mile from Freedom Bridge.

I know this is what it would appear, but it's not a straight shot from the Freedom Bridge, past the MHB, and onto the crime scene. It wouldn't make sense to me to measure that way. JMO. I know this is an argument I'll never win, but I just don't think LE is that haphazard. Why not just put "approx. 1/4 mile upstream from the bridge" on ISP.gov?

 

[TL4S]

Is it really that far fetched to think LE might not want the public to know the exact location of the final crime scene? With all the talk about trail cameras on here, what about the idea of LE putting one up at the actual body location, unknown to anyone but the killer and LE, and seeing if anyone shows up? Probably unlikely, but...

The murders happening much closer to RL's home might explain all the searching happening at his place vs. nothing at the cemetery. These are just a few thoughts I have, with an open mind to the "1/2 mile" reference.

It's not that I'm completely opposed to the taped-off photos being the final crime scene. But there are no LE sources to support it. There are LE sources to support it being father east, so I'm not willing to simply ignore the wording and chalk it up as LE ineptness. Jmo

Again, Holeman said the reenactments are wrong and shows the public doesn't know the facts. This is just one example out of many where we could be getting it wrong. Jmo

 

[MistyWaters]

So Flannel shirt guy was actually second sketch & highly interrogated to no avail and then they went with “first sketch” kid/guy two years later because they are grasping and the “first” account came from an unreliable super young junior high girl that was giving a recount.

IMO

Where are you getting this from? Link your source or is this your opinion? The man in the flannel shirt who DG spoke with was described by BP as an older man in his 70s.

 

[Ozoner]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

That Megyn Kelly interview was from January of 2018— long before the 2019 press conference, in other words. At that time they were still dismissing the eyewitness description that led to the sketch of a younger BG. They have since become convinced that the witness did encounter BG.

 

[sunshineray]

Yes and no. If a 25-year-old is "cute", I doubt there would be any problems gaging his age, plus-minus. If he is not very attractive, little would they care, 25 or 65. It all depends on their interest.

Unless Libby, who took criminal justice classes, was different, since she was interested in behaviors. I suspect she could be good with ages, she lived in a multi-generational house, and probably, possessed an unusual amount of intuition.

What else could she have done if she felt uneasy? In 2017, Libby could have live-streamed BG on her FB. Not on SC, but on IG, too.

Why didn't she do it? If she was scared, if she was inconspicuously taking his video, why didn't she broadcast it?

I am always asking myself this question.

Not enough time I think. He was upon them to quickly. I think she was probably filming Abby as she finished her crossing, it was a big deal crossing that bridge for the first time. Libby just moved her phone to catch BG in the frame.

 

[TL4S]

That Megyn Kelly interview was from January of 2018— long before the 2019 press conference, in other words. At that time they were still dismissing the eyewitness description that led to the sketch of a younger BG. They have since become convinced that the witness did encounter BG.

What's strange is that the first sketch released was supposedly a composite from several witnesses, iirc. So LE must have assumed at the time that these people saw him.

I haven't seen the full Kelly interview. Was there more context than what we hear in this video, like maybe nobody saw him in the commission of the actually crime, or something like that?

 

[Ozoner]

What's strange is that the first sketch released was supposedly a composite from several witnesses, iirc. So LE must have assumed at the time that these people saw him.

I haven't seen the full Kelly interview. Was there more context than what we hear in this video, like maybe nobody saw him in the commission of the actually crime, or something like that?

No, but it's possible that that's what Carter meant.

Carter's comments are puzzling considering that they were still promoting the first sketch at the tome. You do have to wonder whether they had already cleared the subject of the first sketch by January 2018 but chose not to inform the public of that.

 

[Justice101]

following... hoping I jump back on some day.. and an arrest has been made

 

[Dotrat]

following... hoping I jump back on some day.. and an arrest has been made

Every time I login I hope to see that word ARRESTED. I get choked up just writing that. These girls and their families deserve justice and it can’t get here soon enough. LET TODAY BE THE DAY!

 

[stattlich1]

One of the searchers saw 2 deer across the creek. This detail is important for me as to determination of the location of the crime scene, including where the bodies were found.

I've not been to the area. However, maybe some who have can chime in. I think on the side of the creek where this searcher was located (the south side, the opposite side of the creek from the cemetery) it becomes unwalkable, in other words, this searcher would be standing on or near the flats, that sandbar, looking north across the creek. This sandbar can be seen on google images. This area is almost directly in line with the SE corner of the cemetery. IMO, the girls bodies were found in this area.

The half mile reference would put this searcher farther along that stream bank. It's simply not the case. The topographic maps I have accessed show a steep bank beyond the flats.

So, IMO, the half mile is/was just an approximate reference of distance. It's a non-issue for me.

The chopper footage that has been referenced numerous times in the past years clearly shows high numbers of LE vehicles parked directly in the cemetery. It is my opinion that they were at that location because it provided the easiest access to the crime scene where the girls were found.

 

[photographer4]

The following timeline came from interviews with family on the podcast Scene of the Crime — Episode 2.

3:00-3:30 pm
The girls agreed upon time to meet up w/ Derrick at the drop off spot.

3:11 pm
Derrick calls Libby as he approaches the trails to let her know he’s almost there. It rings several times before going to voicemail.

3:13 pm
DG calls LG again (his 2nd call) and also sends her a text.

Unable to reach Libby, DG exits the car and walks a few yards down the path until it separates into 3 separate trails:

1- High Bridge / 501 Trail
2- Deer Creek / 505 Trail
3- Freedom Bridge / 501 Trail

Derrick sees flannel shirt guy coming from the direction of the 501 Trail. He asks FSG if he’d seen the girls down that way. FSG says he saw a couple arguing down by the bridge but no girls, so DG heads down the 505 Trail. He doesn't see the girls and returns to the trailhead.

3:24 pm
Derrick calls LG (his 3rd call).

3:32 pm
Derrick calls LG (his 4th call).

3:33 pm
Derrick calls his mom / LG's grandmother Becky. He relays that he can't find the girls and Libby isn't answering her phone. He then calls his sister / LG’s Aunt Tara and leaves a message asking if she’s heard from the girls.

Derrick then walks toward the Freedom Bridge Trail and runs into FSG again. He tells DG he didn’t see the girls down that way either.

3:57 pm
Derrick heads back to his car and calls LG (his 5th call).

3:58 pm
Derrick calls Becky again.

4:12 pm
Becky calls Kelsi to see if she’s heard from LG. Kelsi heads to the trail to help look for the girls.

4:17 pm
Becky tries calling LG and then a few of her friends to see if anyone has heard from Libby or Abby.

A short time later, Aunt Tara calls Becky and they decide to meet at the trailhead. When Tara arrives, DG gets in the car and they wait for Becky.

4:20 pm
Becky calls LG’s grandfather Mike at work and informs him they can't find the girls.

Her son / LG’s Uncle Cody comes in from work and rides with Becky to the trails. They drive along both routes that the girls could've taken (if they’d walked home), but there's no sign of them.

Kelsi and Uncle Cody take the Monon High Bridge Trail and walk the 1/2 mile to the bridge, cross it, and proceed down the hill on the other end. At the end of the bridge, Kelsi remembers looking to the left and seeing where someone had fallen down the hill, but she didn’t think anything of it... “because everybody goes down the hill”. Doug Carter asks if she'd seen “disrupted ground” and if that’s why she thought someone had fallen down the hill. She says yes.

At the bottom of the hill, there is a long dirt road (private driveway) that connects several residences. Cody and Kelsi knock on the doors of some of the remote homes but only manage to speak to one homeowner who had not seen the girls.

Cody and Kelsi climb back up the hill to the bridge and return to the parking area. Kelsi says they didn't walk down the left side of the bridge end because there are no residences or structures in that immediate area - just woods and Deer Creek.

5:00 pm
Libby’s grandfather Mike arrives and tries to call LG repeatedly, but her phone is now going straight to voicemail. (Calls to LG’s phone were ringing several times before going to voicemail as late as 4:17 pm but were going straight to voicemail by 5:00 pm.)

5:20 pm
Mike calls Delphi PD and reports the girls missing.

Thanks for posting this! Wow! So it sounds like Libby's phone was on, but just going to VM when DG started to try to call her! It would be super interesting to examine that phone / records associated with it! I'd bet police have a really good idea of the timeline, even better than I originally thought because it occurs to me now that other people may also have been calling / texting / messaging LG after she posted the snap photo of Abby that day. Its possible that she posted the photo and friends saw it and messaged to tell her it was a great photo or something - if LG didn't respond immediately, but she usually did, that might be a huge clue for LE!

I'd also like to know what time was the last time they DID speak with someone (live or via text / messenger)? What did they say? Maybe LG texted a friend and said something about that creep on the trail - we don't know, LE has never mentioned if this did happen or not. Wouldn't shock me though if that had happened!

It is interesting that DG starts phoning her and there is no answer and it goes to voicemail. I wonder if that means that she put the device on silent and then tossed it discretely to avoid BG finding it? Or maybe he knew about it and just did not care, never imaging himself the star in their video!

 

[photographer4]

Yes and no. If a 25-year-old is "cute", I doubt there would be any problems gaging his age, plus-minus. If he is not very attractive, little would they care, 25 or 65. It all depends on their interest.

Unless Libby, who took criminal justice classes, was different, since she was interested in behaviors. I suspect she could be good with ages, she lived in a multi-generational house, and probably, possessed an unusual amount of intuition.

What else could she have done if she felt uneasy? In 2017, Libby could have live-streamed BG on her FB. Not on SC, but on IG, too.

Why didn't she do it? If she was scared, if she was inconspicuously taking his video, why didn't she broadcast it?

I am always asking myself this question.

She may not have had a signal or a strong enough one to get a live started at the time when he caught up / attacked them. She may have thought they were going to get reprimanded then be on their way, so no need to record the creeper. She may have been told very firmly to put her phone away and a weapon could have been flashed or he had grabbed Abby and she was now under his control? We don't know. We have no idea. I think they did the best they could, and its awfully sad it wasn't enough to get away safely.

 

[photographer4]

One of the searchers saw 2 deer across the creek. This detail is important for me as to determination of the location of the crime scene, including where the bodies were found.

I've not been to the area. However, maybe some who have can chime in. I think on the side of the creek where this searcher was located (the south side, the opposite side of the creek from the cemetery) it becomes unwalkable, in other words, this searcher would be standing on or near the flats, that sandbar, looking north across the creek. This sandbar can be seen on google images. This area is almost directly in line with the SE corner of the cemetery. IMO, the girls bodies were found in this area.

The half mile reference would put this searcher farther along that stream bank. It's simply not the case. The topographic maps I have accessed show a steep bank beyond the flats.

So, IMO, the half mile is/was just an approximate reference of distance. It's a non-issue for me.

The chopper footage that has been referenced numerous times in the past years clearly shows high numbers of LE vehicles parked directly in the cemetery. It is my opinion that they were at that location because it provided the easiest access to the crime scene where the girls were found.

OR: it provided the most amount of parking in proximity to where the kids were found. Where else could LE have parked really?

 

[catch_22]

Thanks for posting this! Wow! So it sounds like Libby's phone was on, but just going to VM when DG started to try to call her! It would be super interesting to examine that phone / records associated with it! I'd bet police have a really good idea of the timeline, even better than I originally thought because it occurs to me now that other people may also have been calling / texting / messaging LG after she posted the snap photo of Abby that day. Its possible that she posted the photo and friends saw it and messaged to tell her it was a great photo or something - if LG didn't respond immediately, but she usually did, that might be a huge clue for LE!

I'd also like to know what time was the last time they DID speak with someone (live or via text / messenger)? What did they say? Maybe LG texted a friend and said something about that creep on the trail - we don't know, LE has never mentioned if this did happen or not. Wouldn't shock me though if that had happened!

It is interesting that DG starts phoning her and there is no answer and it goes to voicemail. I wonder if that means that she put the device on silent and then tossed it discretely to avoid BG finding it? Or maybe he knew about it and just did not care, never imaging himself the star in their video!

I think it says that her phone WAS "ringing" (either actually ringing, vibrating, or "ringing silently") until at least 4:17pm. During this time, it went to voicemail after 4 rings (or however many rings it was set to). From around 5pm on, calls to her phone went IMMEDIATELY to voicemail. To me, this means around 5pm, her phone either lost signal, was broken, was thrown in the creek, was manually powered off, or the battery died (most likely, imo).

 

[minazoe]

I always wondered who the couple arguing beneath the bridge were?

the whole thing is just a nightmare..I wish they would just spit it out..did they find the couple? did they come forward? was this something to do with the girls? was this bg? was it after the girls were murdered or before?

there was a couple fighting beneath the bridge..come on, let's get all the players together for a secret round table..people at the park that day could talk to each other in a kind of think tank..maybe some unrealized memories could come forth?

every little detail needs be re examined.

mOO

 

[photographer4]

I think it says that her phone WAS "ringing" (either actually ringing, vibrating, or "ringing silently") until at least 4:17pm. During this time, it went to voicemail after 4 rings (or however many rings it was set to). From around 5pm on, calls to her phone went IMMEDIATELY to voicemail. To me, this means around 5pm, her phone either lost signal, was broken, was thrown in the creek, was manually powered off, or the battery died (most likely, imo).

I'm so interested to know where that phone was found and in what condition! If BG tossed it into the creek, did he really think LE wouldn't find it? Is it possible that LIBBY tossed it into the creek on her own accord as a means to ensure BG wouldn't likely be able to get it? She had taken some courses, she may have known that if it was tossed in the water, it might have a chance of being recovered successfully by LE. Maybe BG told her to toss it in the creek thinking it would destroy whatever was on it?

 

[catch_22]

I'm so interested to know where that phone was found and in what condition! If BG tossed it into the creek, did he really think LE wouldn't find it? Is it possible that LIBBY tossed it into the creek on her own accord as a means to ensure BG wouldn't likely be able to get it? She had taken some courses, she may have known that if it was tossed in the water, it might have a chance of being recovered successfully by LE. Maybe BG told her to toss it in the creek thinking it would destroy whatever was on it?

Sadly, At 4:17pm, I doubt Libby would have been able to toss it in the creek. What would that be? Like 1.5hours after the BG video was taken?

Also, I'd bet that BG was long gone by 4:17 as well. This is why I would put my money on the battery dying.

 

[catch_22]

I always wondered who the couple arguing beneath the bridge were?

the whole thing is just a nightmare..I wish they would just spit it out..did they find the couple? did they come forward? was this something to do with the girls? was this bg? was it after the girls were murdered or before?

there was a couple fighting beneath the bridge..come on, let's get all the players together for a secret round table..people at the park that day could talk to each other in a kind of think tank..maybe some unrealized memories could come forth?

every little detail needs be re examined.

mOO

Agreed. Something strange about flannel shirt guy's statement. Did he say they were UNDER the bridge? How easy is it to get "under the bridge" from the northwest side?

If there was a couple under the bridge, that in itself seems pretty suspicious.

If there wasn't a couple under the bridge, then why would he say that there was?

MOO