Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[cujenn81]

Agreed. Something strange about flannel shirt guy's statement. Did he say they were UNDER the bridge? How easy is it to get "under the bridge" from the northwest side?

If there was a couple under the bridge, that in itself seems pretty suspicious.

If there wasn't a couple under the bridge, then why would he say that there was?

MOO

It’s not super clear what FSG said about the couple, exactly. I think he probably said he saw them “down by/near the bridge”. To me — that could mean anywhere in the general vicinity of the bridge. Also remember that we don’t really know what time he saw the couple arguing either.

 

[TL4S]

One of the searchers saw 2 deer across the creek. This detail is important for me as to determination of the location of the crime scene, including where the bodies were found.

I've not been to the area. However, maybe some who have can chime in. I think on the side of the creek where this searcher was located (the south side, the opposite side of the creek from the cemetery) it becomes unwalkable, in other words, this searcher would be standing on or near the flats, that sandbar, looking north across the creek. This sandbar can be seen on google images. This area is almost directly in line with the SE corner of the cemetery. IMO, the girls bodies were found in this area.

The half mile reference would put this searcher farther along that stream bank. It's simply not the case. The topographic maps I have accessed show a steep bank beyond the flats.

So, IMO, the half mile is/was just an approximate reference of distance. It's a non-issue for me.

The chopper footage that has been referenced numerous times in the past years clearly shows high numbers of LE vehicles parked directly in the cemetery. It is my opinion that they were at that location because it provided the easiest access to the crime scene where the girls were found.

This is really the reason I hesitated for so long to address the "1/2 mile" issue, because I agree with your line if thinking as far as the searchers.

However, as far as I've seen, we still don't know where that searcher was when he located the shoe. All I recall is KG saying she was on the road underneath the bridge and the searchers were below the house, within shouting distance, but not within sight. I don't remember which source she said that specifically, but it was audio.

Anyway, do we know, for a fact, that the searcher wasn't in the water? After the girls had been missing close to 20 hours, I would be surprised if no search groups were checking the creek itself. Maybe he was along the south bank, but in the water, walking east. He wouldn't have to be very far east from the flat to have a clear view of the sandbar that is close to a 1/2 mile upstream. And he'd definitely need a zoom lens to see what's going on in the woods behind. I'm probably wrong on this, but who knows.

Also, how muddy was it down in that flat area? If footprints led them to a shoe, I'm picturing wet mud as opposed to dry dirt and leaves. If the shoe came off in the mud, I suspect it was directly adjoining the creek, where the ground is generally silty and/or sticky, or in the water, or on a sandbar, or even just on the opposite side of the creek.

I guess my point is that there's too few specifics about the location of anything: searchers, footprints, shoe, bodies...imo, to make any definitive conclusions.

I know I sound like I'm reaching with all of this, but I'm trying to look at things with an open mind. Jmo.

 

[stattlich1]

OR: it provided the most amount of parking in proximity to where the kids were found. Where else could LE have parked really?

They could have, and did park all sorts of other places. The entire road network was closed off. They were parked in driveways, at intersections, along the roads, at the Freedom bridge. They could have, and did, park at many, many, different places.

 

[TL4S]

They could have, and did park all sorts of other places. The entire road network was closed off. They were parked in driveways, at intersections, along the roads, at the Freedom bridge. They could have, and did, park at many, many, different places.

I've wondered, too, if the trail behind the cemetery wasn't just the best access spot for the entire wooded area along the creek on RL's property, even if they were found farther east. Are the banks behind RL's house steep?

 

[stattlich1]

This is really the reason I hesitated for so long to address the "1/2 mile" issue, because I agree with your line if thinking as far as the searchers.

However, as far as I've seen, we still don't know where that searcher was when he located the shoe. All I recall is KG saying she was on the road underneath the bridge and the searchers were below the house, within shouting distance, but not within sight. I don't remember which source she said that specifically, but it was audio.

Anyway, do we know, for a fact, that the searcher wasn't in the water? After the girls had been missing close to 20 hours, I would be surprised if no search groups were checking the creek itself. Maybe he was along the south bank, but in the water, walking east. He wouldn't have to be very far east from the flat to have a clear view of the sandbar that is close to a 1/2 mile upstream. And he'd definitely need a zoom lens to see what's going on in the woods behind. I'm probably wrong on this, but who knows.

Also, how muddy was it down in that flat area? If footprints led them to a shoe, I'm picturing wet mud as opposed to dry dirt and leaves. If the shoe came off in the mud, I suspect it was directly adjoining the creek, where the ground is generally silty and/or sticky, or in the water, or on a sandbar, or even just on the opposite side of the creek.

I guess my point is that there's too few specifics about the location of anything: searchers, footprints, shoe, bodies...imo, to make any definitive conclusions.

I know I sound like I'm reaching with all of this, but I'm trying to look at things with an open mind. Jmo.

This has been beaten around for some time. It's reported by KG that she was under the bridge when a searcher yelled up about finding a shoe. It's reported by same that the same searcher looked up and saw the deer.

snipped from a WS post.....

"Kelsi said in the Infamous Indy podcast:

Feb 14

I was standing on the trail that’s right under the bridge looking out into the woods and somebody yelled up that they had found a shoe.

And when they had found the shoe they had asked what kind of shoes the girls were wearing, and they yelled up the type of shoe that Libby was wearing. So I yelled down and told them that.

Actually then the person that had asked that had put up their phone and saw two deer in the ground moving. And so he was looking to see what it might be, and he saw two deer standing up there, and when he saw them, he moved the camera down, and that’s when we found them."

The other account indicates the searcher 'saw two deer across the creek'. T0 me that would indicate standing on the bank, not in the water anywhere.

They are no where near the area you describe.

MOO

 

[sandy_80]

Agreed. Something strange about flannel shirt guy's statement. Did he say they were UNDER the bridge? How easy is it to get "under the bridge" from the northwest side?

If there was a couple under the bridge, that in itself seems pretty suspicious.

If there wasn't a couple under the bridge, then why would he say that there was?

MOO

he might have said.. down by the bridge or somthing..there were no reports about ppl being anywhere but on the trails .
if the male was one BG witness.. then he would have been there when bg was leaving the scene

 

[Spartygirl]

OR: it provided the most amount of parking in proximity to where the kids were found. Where else could LE have parked really?

The cemetery provided quicker access to CS and allowed more vehicles to be parked there.
LE could have parked at the old CPS building, or on the other side of FB, or along the side of the road or even the little parking area where girls were dropped off at.
The cemetery was easiest access and allowed more vehicles to park
JMO from being there.

 

[Spartygirl]

I always wondered who the couple arguing beneath the bridge were?

the whole thing is just a nightmare..I wish they would just spit it out..did they find the couple? did they come forward? was this something to do with the girls? was this bg? was it after the girls were murdered or before?

there was a couple fighting beneath the bridge..come on, let's get all the players together for a secret round table..people at the park that day could talk to each other in a kind of think tank..maybe some unrealized memories could come forth?

every little detail needs be re examined.

mOO

Due to TOS here, we are not allowed to bring names in.
IIRC, LE did say they have spoken to everyone that LE knew were there that day. IIRC, it was in a video but would have to go searching.
Considering the amount of people that were there, I am sure it was quite a challenge for LE.
IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I didn’t listen to this podcast but DC appeared on TV interview quite some time ago, probably about in 2018 and there was a lot of discussion here. He said there were no “eye witnesses” - indeed that’s true, as nobody witnessed the crime. Just mentioning....

 

[Boxer]

The private drive: maybe the owner didn't have a problem with letting people access the area prior to the murders. Visitors would not have been looked on suspiciously at that time. One of the bridge hunters found the south end and posted pics in 2006 (IIRC)

If the girls were forced across the creek, then I'm considering BG wanted the crime scene to be there so they wouldn't investigate the south end. I've always thought he had some tie to that area. OTOH, it's possible the girls made a break from him and went to the creek on their own.

Homeowners on private drives do ppl

Due to TOS here, we are not allowed to bring names in.
IIRC, LE did say they have spoken to everyone that LE knew were there that day. IIRC, it was in a video but would have to go searching.
Considering the amount of people that were there, I am sure it was quite a challenge for LE.
IMO

IIRC the Sheriff spoke to everyone except the man on the bridge.
The first time he was mentioned by the Sheriff in the mefia, he was asked to contact them. Shortly after his picture was distributed as a suspect.

 

[sunshineray]

Is it really that far fetched to think LE might not want the public to know the exact location of the final crime scene? With all the talk about trail cameras on here, what about the idea of LE putting one up at the actual body location, unknown to anyone but the killer and LE, and seeing if anyone shows up? Probably unlikely, but...

The murders happening much closer to RL's home might explain all the searching happening at his place vs. nothing at the cemetery. These are just a few thoughts I have, with an open mind to the "1/2 mile" reference.

It's not that I'm completely opposed to the taped-off photos being the final crime scene. But there are no LE sources to support it. There are LE sources to support it being father east, so I'm not willing to simply ignore the wording and chalk it up as LE ineptness. Jmo

Again, Holeman said the reenactments are wrong and shows the public doesn't know the facts. This is just one example out of many where we could be getting it wrong. Jmo

In the HLN two-night TV show just recently broadcast, the reporter said she was standing at the crime scene. I think it was in Part 1, the first night. It's not a mystery where it was. She said she got permission from RL to go on his land to film there.

 

[TL4S]

In the HLN two-night TV show just recently broadcast, the reporter said she was standing at the crime scene. I think it was in Part 1, the first night. It's not a mystery where it was. She said she got permission from RL to go on his land to film there.

I think the media assumes where the crime scene is based on the RL interview with the taped-off area.

My general feeling is that ever since I brought up this isp.gov distance issue, I've been shown non-LE sources, linked to the deer story multiple times, and told to disregard LE's statements because LE is inept. I do consider the spot south of the cemetery as a possibility, but regardless the opposition, I'm keeping an open mind based on LE's wording. If I believed that LE didn't know the difference between <1000 feet and a 1/2 mile, I wouldn't have much confidence in them tracking down this killer. That's negative thinking which I'm unwilling to entertain.

As with many aspects of this case, we shall all have our own perspective. I will continue to consider the possibility of the crime scene location being unknown until LE has said otherwise, and I will respect that I'm nearly alone in that thinking. I'm also okay being wrong.

 

[MistyWaters]

IIRC the Sheriff spoke to everyone except the man on the bridge.
The first time he was mentioned by the Sheriff in the mefia, he was asked to contact them. Shortly after his picture was distributed as a suspect.

Yes that’s what I recall too. Definitely LE have never asked for a guy in a flannel shirt, or a couple who were under the bridge that day to contact LE so IMO we was can be assured their identity is known. It’s also possible the various parties all knew each other by name but a descriptive reference was chosen to respect their privacy, understandable if so.

 

[news buff]

This has been beaten around for some time. It's reported by KG that she was under the bridge when a searcher yelled up about finding a shoe. It's reported by same that the same searcher looked up and saw the deer.

snipped from a WS post.....

"Kelsi said in the Infamous Indy podcast:

Feb 14

I was standing on the trail that’s right under the bridge looking out into the woods and somebody yelled up that they had found a shoe.

And when they had found the shoe they had asked what kind of shoes the girls were wearing, and they yelled up the type of shoe that Libby was wearing. So I yelled down and told them that.

Actually then the person that had asked that had put up their phone and saw two deer in the ground moving. And so he was looking to see what it might be, and he saw two deer standing up there, and when he saw them, he moved the camera down, and that’s when we found them."

The other account indicates the searcher 'saw two deer across the creek'. T0 me that would indicate standing on the bank, not in the water anywhere.

They are no where near the area you describe.

MOO

The" two deer in the ground moving" was a curious statement by the person who found the girls.

 

[MistyWaters]

In the HLN two-night TV show just recently broadcast, the reporter said she was standing at the crime scene. I think it was in Part 1, the first night. It's not a mystery where it was. She said she got permission from RL to go on his land to film there.

Yes as we know the crime scene was on RLs property, she could stand anywhere on his land and that statement would be factually correct.

LE has never identified the precise location. One reason I can think of is only the search team, the responders, LE and the killer know for sure. RL has never claimed to have been present. If LE received a tip, “he said he was there, then took the girls that way, that happened over there”, etc it would benefit LE to not publicly disclose the actual murder site where the bodies were found, using the location as hold back information to weigh the value of future tips.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

The" two deer in the ground moving" was a curious statement by the person who found the girls.

“Two deer in the ground moving”? Do you have a link.....sounds like a foreign language translation, not the description I recall by BP.

 

[news buff]

“Two deer in the ground moving”? Do you have a link? That sounds like a foreign language translation.

It is from the quote I replied to.

 

[MistyWaters]

It is from the quote I replied to.

Sorry about that, oh yes I see now. Two deer in the ground moving would certainly attract attention! I think the OP might’ve miss-worded that.

 

[sunshineray]

I think the media assumes where the crime scene is based on the RL interview with the taped-off area.

My general feeling is that ever since I brought up this isp.gov distance issue, I've been shown non-LE sources, linked to the deer story multiple times, and told to disregard LE's statements because LE is inept. I do consider the spot south of the cemetery as a possibility, but regardless the opposition, I'm keeping an open mind based on LE's wording. If I believed that LE didn't know the difference between <1000 feet and a 1/2 mile, I wouldn't have much confidence in them tracking down this killer. That's negative thinking which I'm unwilling to entertain.

As with many aspects of this case, we shall all have our own perspective. I will continue to consider the possibility of the crime scene location being unknown until LE has said otherwise, and I will respect that I'm nearly alone in that thinking. I'm also okay being wrong.

I know the woman reporter stood in an area and said it was the crime scene.

She went on to point out that because of the surrounding terrain, almost looking like a huge bowl, it would have been very secluded from anyone's sight across the creek, by the bridge and I think she even said if you were on the bridge you'd have a hard time seeing the spot she was standing. The camera panned around while she talked about it. I took it to mean she was at the crime scene.

She was even shown talking to Sheriff Leazenby in a very similar looking area. Maybe it was all shot in when he was around? I could certainly understand why he wouldn't be on camera when she was at the crime scene area, not wanting to dissect it in any way.

 

[news buff]

Sorry about that, oh yes I see now. Two deer in the ground moving would certainly attract attention! I think the OP might’ve miss-worded that.

OP stated what the quote was from and who said it too.